Century Sabre fireball 225

Author Message   Cal Martell New member Username: cal Post Number: 4 Registered: 02-2004 Posted on Friday, December 09, 2005 - 09:32 pm:    Just purchased a 1963 Century Sabre from eBay and it has a Graymarine fireball 225 engine. I understand this is a 327 cid, is it a GM product? Is it like the 327 Chevy? Are parts available? The engine hasn't been run for several years but was in good condition during its' last use. Any help/advise would be appreciated. Thanks   Fastjeff Senior Member Username: fastjeff Post Number: 1879 Registered: 09-2003 Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 12:21 pm:    The year is about right for it to be a Chevy. Can you send us a photo? Jeff   Andrew Menkart Moderator Username: andrew Post Number: 624 Registered: 03-2001 Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 12:23 pm:    Cal, There is a V8-255 and a V8C-255. The V8C-255 is flywheel forward. 327cid Weight direct: 900 lbs Weight w/ red. gear: 950 lbs 9.5:1 compression ratio 255hp at 4400rpm We offer manuals for the Fireball V8s. For parts you could try Duby Marine in NY at 716-694-0922.   Andrew Menkart Moderator Username: andrew Post Number: 626 Registered: 03-2001 Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 11:17 am:    Cal, I think those engines were AMC engines. That one is the same as the AMC Rambler V8 engine. We have a Gray Marine discussion category on the OldMarineEngine.com site too... you might want to read through some of the posting there also.   Cal Martell Member Username: cal Post Number: 5 Registered: 02-2004 Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 05:23 pm:    Thank you all for the info. I think it is the AMC engine. I will order manuals for the motor and also for the velvet drive. Cal   Cal Martell Member Username: cal Post Number: 6 Registered: 02-2004 Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 07:27 pm:    Took the doghouse off. The motor is a V8C, 225hp. The flywheel is in front. The hour meter says 399. The motor/boat has been laid up for quite a few years but the previous owner said it ran good before the layup. Never pulled the dipstick yet. This boat will be a labor of love. Cal Cal   Andrew Menkart Moderator Username: andrew Post Number: 629 Registered: 03-2001 Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 08:44 am:    Sounds like a great project. Keep us posted on your progress. Do you have a photo or a link to the ebay photos?   Fastjeff Senior Member Username: fastjeff Post Number: 1881 Registered: 09-2003 Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 10:04 am:    Plese post a photo! I'm dying to see what it looks like. Thanks, Jeff   Cal Martell Member Username: cal Post Number: 7 Registered: 02-2004 Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 06:04 pm:    Here is the link to the eBay site. I don't know how they work after the sale has been completed. ebay ad link This boat seems to be in beautiful condition except for the front seats which are weathered. I surveyed the entire hull, keel (one small splintered chip twords the bow area), transom, ribs, gussets, and thru-hull fittings and have not found any dry rot. Other than some missing ss screws all the chrome is there. I do have some decisions to make though, I want to put in a fuel/water separator, should I change out the copper fuel lines and go with newer flex fuel lines? I know I will need to have the alt, voltage regulator, water pump, dist, points, plugs, flush the pan, flush the gas tank, rewire the whole shebang etc. but what's a retired guy to do during the winter in Green Bay. Here are pics of the motor. I am also ordering a manual from your link today. Will keep you posted on progress. So far I have taken over 100 pics of all the survey so I know how to put things back together   Cal Martell Member Username: cal Post Number: 8 Registered: 02-2004 Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 06:11 pm:    One other question, what's and "operators" manual? I want the meat and potatoes of the engine, not just how to change the oil and plugs. If this is an AMC engine I already have the tech manual stuff, I save all the old service manuals I ever had. Thanks again. Cal   Andrew Menkart Moderator Username: andrew Post Number: 630 Registered: 03-2001 Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 06:29 pm:    Cal, The boat looks great. I will repost some of the photos here. The ebay photos will become unavaliable on ebays site soon. The operators manual is basic operating, troubleshooting, basic maintenenace, etc. You will be better off with the service/technical manual.   Cal Martell Member Username: cal Post Number: 9 Registered: 02-2004 Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 07:57 pm:    You guys are great, better photos than I had. I've been buying boats from the Rawhide boys ranch for close to 15 years now, about 2 or 3 a year, fix up resale Alum, glass, etc but this is my first woodie "project" for myself. Is there a better way to get pics on this board. Each time I tried to send a better (bigger file) pic I get an error message. Thanks again cal   Cal Martell Member Username: cal Post Number: 10 Registered: 02-2004 Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 06:51 am:    Also could you tell me exactly which manual I need to order? I looked at the site you linked and started getting somewhat confused. I need one that has specs for vac advance, dwell, timeing, valve lash, fuel delivery, etc. My old manuals only go back to 1970, and a 327 cid AMC is not in there. thanks.   Fastjeff Senior Member Username: fastjeff Post Number: 1887 Registered: 09-2003 Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 08:00 am:    Great looking rig! Yours could be the star of the show in the restored boats shows we have here on the Chessie! Jeff   Andrew Menkart Moderator Username: andrew Post Number: 632 Registered: 03-2001 Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 09:32 am:    Cal, You should get the one titled: Fireball V-8 250 and 327 cid engines Technical Manual It has all the data and specs for overhaul, tune-up, maintenance, etc. It is a very complete manual.   Cal Martell Member Username: cal Post Number: 11 Registered: 02-2004 Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 08:00 pm:    Just ordered the tech manual you suggested. Thanks. There are going to be a ton of questions on this forum during the refurbish, alot of them will be simple for you but if I don't know or am not sure of I'm gunna ask. Time to step back now and smell the rose (dirty bilge water ) Have a good holiday season all of you. Cal   Fastjeff Senior Member Username: fastjeff Post Number: 1891 Registered: 09-2003 Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 08:35 am:    Take plenty of photos, Cal, both for you (so you'll know where everything goes) and for us nosey folks out here! Jeff PS: The Hudson Hornet also used that motor, late in its life.   Cal Martell Member Username: cal Post Number: 12 Registered: 02-2004 Posted on Sunday, December 18, 2005 - 06:47 pm:    Turned the engine over this afternoon, good news is that it turned over, bad news is that there was a clanking sound on every revolution. Did not look into the noise whether it was external or internal, sounded like something hitting the pan. Also there was rust on three of the plugs, I suspect that this is from sitting for so long with the exhaust/intake valves partially opened. I gave each cyl a good dose of oil before I turned it over (sans plugs) just to lube the walls. The neutral switch does work! I would like to fire it up before pulling it from the hull for a complete go over. Waiting for the manual to arrive. The entire boat is gutted out and I hi-pressured the bulkheads and bilge with a rotary gun, now I will let it sit over the holidays to dry out. Did find some rot in some hidden corners but so far I believe nothing that cannot be fixed with the modern epoxys. Any opions on this type of repair? Cal   Andrew Menkart Moderator Username: andrew Post Number: 635 Registered: 03-2001 Posted on Monday, December 19, 2005 - 06:29 pm:    Cal, The post office says the engine manual was delivered today, 12/19. Hope it helps!   Cal Martell Member Username: cal Post Number: 13 Registered: 02-2004 Posted on Monday, December 19, 2005 - 09:56 pm:    Arrived on time and in good condition today. Glad you recommended the manual. I spent an hour just paging through and did not find anything that I didn't understand or havn't done before. I'll do a compression check during the week and maybe get a pop out of it. Thanks for all the advice and "exras" Have a good holiday season and a Merry Christmas to you all. Cal   Cal Martell Member Username: cal Post Number: 14 Registered: 02-2004 Posted on Saturday, December 24, 2005 - 12:38 pm:    Just did a compression check on the Fireball. Real goofy readings, so goofy that I did the whole operation twice and came up with the same readings. No1-150, 2-148, 3-35, 4-137, 5-85, 6-90, 7-45, 8-85. Now I suspect the rings are not as bad as the tests would indicate, this was a wet test with the throttle half open. My other guess would be rusted valvea/seats since the really low readings were the same cylinders that had rust on the spark plugs. Either way I will be pulling the heads off this spring after I pull the engine. I've been in contact with the former owner and he stated that the engine was run in 2004 but the transmission slipped in reverse. The clanking that I mentioned in a previous post was caused by No 2 cylinder tappet sticking, the pushrod would slam on top of it, after I put oil down the rod hole and a few revolutions the noise stopped.   Fastjeff Senior Member Username: fastjeff Post Number: 1924 Registered: 09-2003 Posted on Sunday, December 25, 2005 - 07:56 am:    Where do you live? I'd sure like to come by a take a look at this unique engine! I'd even help. Jeff   Cal Martell Member Username: cal Post Number: 15 Registered: 02-2004 Posted on Sunday, December 25, 2005 - 10:22 pm:    "The frozen tundra" Eight miles north of Green Bay, Wi, Yeah, da Packers ;( This is an ongoing project but you guys are sure welcome to chime in anytime. I do not have a formal shop, just my garage and alot of room and tools but only an 8' ceiling. I'll have to pull the boat to a friends construction workshop and pull the engine with a heavy duty Michigan loader, put the engine on a smaller trailer and then haul it back home for the winter. Such is the curse of a shade tree mech.   Cal Martell Member Username: cal Post Number: 16 Registered: 02-2004 Posted on Wednesday, January 04, 2006 - 08:13 pm:    Started removing the wiring from the engine, took lots of pictures and documentation. Is there some reason why the wires are pigtails? Maybe a one size fits all approach by Century. I would like to clean up the harness when I re-wire. Also an aquaintance suggested that when I have the valves ground I should have hardened seats put on the exhaust side because of the no lead gas thing. Any thoughts? Cal   Fastjeff Senior Member Username: fastjeff Post Number: 1966 Registered: 09-2003 Posted on Friday, January 06, 2006 - 06:43 pm:    Cal: From what I've read, damage to non-hardened seats was greatly exaggerated. Installing seats would be horrendously expensive, so if you're worried, see if you can find some lead additive stuff and dump it in. Jeff PS: Love that engine of yours!   Cal Martell Member Username: cal Post Number: 17 Registered: 02-2004 Posted on Sunday, January 08, 2006 - 09:33 am:    No problem with the additive. I talked with a couple mechs and there was a split decision on the seats. Also got the name of a local speed shop that they all recomeded for the valve job, all computer equip. I'll be pulling the heads while the engine is still in the boat. Have to take some of the weight off so I don't stress my overhead too much. I'm only working with an 8' ceiling so I'll be putting slings under the engine vs the lifting eyes to get the clearance I need for the chainfall. Again thanks for the tip. Gheeesh I love this. Cal   Fastjeff Senior Member Username: fastjeff Post Number: 1974 Registered: 09-2003 Posted on Monday, January 09, 2006 - 07:22 am:    Good for you, Cal! (Great attitude.) Please send us more photos as you get that jewel apart. Jeff   Cal Martell Member Username: cal Post Number: 18 Registered: 02-2004 Posted on Tuesday, January 10, 2006 - 05:51 pm:    Pulled the heads today,just as I suspected from the compression readings, rusty valves in five of the eight. Lots of carbon buildup on the cylinders also, the walls look good. Glad I soaked them with oil before turning it over several weeks ago. There was one bent pushrod on the exhaust side of No 8, looking at the condition of the valve I would say it was that way for quite awhile. Other than those issues things look fairly good overall. It'll be awhile before I get the valves ground so don't hold your breath on that part. I will continue to do the prelims for pulling the engine now that a few hundred pounds are removed.   Cal Martell Member Username: cal Post Number: 19 Registered: 02-2004 Posted on Thursday, January 12, 2006 - 08:15 pm:    Is it possible to straighten the bent rod? This is a solid rod, no oil passage. The picture makes the rod look rusty but it is not. Can the shop that does the valve job straighten the rod? Thanks. Cal   Fastjeff Senior Member Username: fastjeff Post Number: 1976 Registered: 09-2003 Posted on Thursday, January 12, 2006 - 09:20 pm:    Better toss it out. It bent once, right? Jeff   Cal Martell Member Username: cal Post Number: 20 Registered: 02-2004 Posted on Saturday, January 14, 2006 - 11:58 am:    Ok on the toss out. I see on the old marine engine discussion board that someone else is interested in the workings of a 225C engine. I will take the address down for parts. Cal   Todd DeVoogd Visitor Posted on Wednesday, January 18, 2006 - 08:45 pm:    I recently purchased an old Lyman with twin gray marine 220'S engines in it, I also purchased the owners manual for the engines and a service manual from Duby Marine. They are very helpfull. They also tell you Gray Marine was a division of Continental Engines, after some research I also found that Continental used AMC blocks. I will be rebuilding one engine this winter, I have found one sight that sells complete rebuild kits for AMC blocks, but I still need to verify that the marine version is the same as an automotive version. Here is the link to this engine rebuild kit site http://www.kanter.com/ I hope this is some help   Cal Martell Member Username: cal Post Number: 21 Registered: 02-2004 Posted on Thursday, January 19, 2006 - 05:41 pm:    Thank you for the information. I have a complete graymarine fireball v-8 service parts list. This book contains every part number for every fireball v-8 that was produced by Graymarine. (thank you Andrew) I have found the pushrods I need and thanks to the manual the 225's are slightly different than the other 5 fireball v-8's. I could have wound up getting the wrong ones and wondering why the engine just couldn't be tuned right. Yes it is an AMC block, whether the marine version is different is always a debate. If you run into any problems let me know and I will do the same. I do not intend a complete tear-down but just a complete cleaning, ie flushing out the oil galleys, pulling the pans, and washing all the internals. There is a considerable buildup of oil deposits on the valvetrain, rods etc so I suspect the crank and oil pump are no better. I will be ordering new gaskets for the exhaust, intake manifolds, probably a rebuild of the carbs, waterpump, alternator, and a checkup of the voltage reg. Starter is good. I will put in a whole new wiringharness because it has been my experiance working on marine engines (IOs)that no matter how good the wire looks on the outside they always seem to rot somewhere along the line where the insulation has been compromised or cracked. Cal   Cal Martell Member Username: cal Post Number: 22 Registered: 02-2004 Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 11:46 pm:    Pulled the engine. Tight quarters as you can see. This is the first engine I have ever seen with a cast iron oil pan. Now it will stay on the cart until I have time to flush it and clean it up.   george crolick Visitor Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 04:52 pm:    I have a gray marine fireball model six-150 with engine number D5743 out of a Century Seamaid. Anyone know when built? are replacement parts available? How do I decide-should it be -put back together, rebuilt, or remanufactured ? Suggestions on best manuals to buy ? Thanks.   Cal Martell Member Username: cal Post Number: 23 Registered: 02-2004 Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 07:57 pm:    George, It's been awhile since I did anything with my engine that's why the posting has slowed. I've been doing more work on the hull. To answer your questions I would suggest you start a new thread on this forum and ask away. The two persons who will give you honest answers are "fastjeff" and Andrew the wizard of this forum. I purchased the tech/service manuals right on line here through the Marinengine store and they are wonderfully helpfull. Yes most parts can be purchased online. Just put in a search (google or someother) and type in your graymarine model six-150. Something will show up. Hope this helps. Good luck on your project. Cal   birdstone Visitor Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2006 - 11:49 am: