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RM
Member
Username: rmm
Post Number: 89
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 26, 2009 - 01:37 pm: | 
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I have been looking for a cleaner, easier way to flush and winterize motors. A company used to make these years ago but no longer in business. I picked up a spare cap and having metal shop drill. Thinking is going to make life much easier. Just get a spare section of garden hose and drop in 5 gallon bucket of antifreeze or attach hose to flush motor w/ fresh or run when out of water.
Parts needed:
- 1/2" X 14 tapered NPT pipe nipple
- ball valve
- another nipple
- fitting with NPT threads on one end and a 3/4" hose thread on the other.
It is suggested on the another site to use a 45/64" tap drill bit which is about 1/64" smaller than standard so that the threads are a little undersized which will make it fit tight and stop the nipple from extending too far into the strainer and hitting the handle on the strainer basket
Given I won't leave these on permanently just using parts from Lowes/HD plumbing section.
Pics are from another site but what I am using as diagram.
Like to hear any comments/suggestions also.
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Al
Advanced Member
Username: knuckle47
Post Number: 756
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Monday, October 26, 2009 - 02:02 pm: |
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This is exactly what I am going to do over the winter...Thanks for the post
There was a company that actually made replacement caps with valves cast in, they were reasonably priced and ...they went out of business. |
Fastjeff
Senior Member
Username: fastjeff
Post Number: 7004
Registered: 09-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 26, 2009 - 02:03 pm: |
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Slick. Now, if you come up with a way of doing it without having to pull the thermostat out--you DO pull the t-stat ut first, right? If not, most of the Pink Stuff goes out the exhaust.
Jeff |
Al
Advanced Member
Username: knuckle47
Post Number: 757
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Monday, October 26, 2009 - 02:14 pm: |
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These can make good emergency pumps for the boat as well if the screens can keep junk out of the engine, would'nt you think? Basically, engine powered bilge pumps? |
Ted Broderick
Advanced Member
Username: tbrodes
Post Number: 111
Registered: 02-2008
| | Posted on Monday, October 26, 2009 - 02:33 pm: |
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Jeff if a FWC engine, why would you need the thermostat to open...we are only trying to get the raw water side full of the pink stuff.... |
Bob Dunne
Member
Username: bobct
Post Number: 10
Registered: 10-2009
| | Posted on Monday, October 26, 2009 - 02:50 pm: |
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I'm going to be changing the impellers, thermo, hoses, manifolds/elbows/risers on both engines.
I would rather not "test" all my work at once (x2) during my spring launch.
Will this allow me to run/test both engines as though they're in the water?
Where do these connect exactly? In place of my raw water pick up?
thanks,
Bob |
RM
Member
Username: rmm
Post Number: 91
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 26, 2009 - 02:59 pm: |
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This only is for Perko strainers, it just replaces the xisting cap. Also I would NOT leave these on full time as valve could be inadvertantly opened. A good source for a spare cap is CG Edwards about $20, just look up size, I think a 1-1/4" is a #7.
I only plan on using to winterize and a quick fresh water flush. I am not sure if the volume of water is sufficient to run for extended period or higher rpm, maybe someone else can speak to that.
And no with FWC(which is what I have) the T stat doesnt need to open....right?
Perko makes new strainers with the vavle cast in but they are very $$$$ and have to replace whole strainer, new caps wont fit old unit. |
Al
Advanced Member
Username: knuckle47
Post Number: 758
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Monday, October 26, 2009 - 03:13 pm: |
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RM,
Those are the ones I was looking at and they are WAY too expensive for the purpose intended. My strainers are about 1/2 gallon capacity and the cap is about 5" diameter. I believe you are right on the number 7size. I am going to see If I can find replacement caps and do this over the next week or so.
Bob, Do you have anything to "filter" the incoming raw cooling water to your engine? These strainers are between the seacock and the hose to the engine and help to keep some grasses and some particles that get sucked up from the water....out. |
Rick Sweeten
Senior Member
Username: linesix
Post Number: 1613
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Monday, October 26, 2009 - 03:21 pm: |
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I make these for customers who want to do their own winterizing. I also install a faucet in the engineroom. That way you can winterize the water system first, then use the faucet to winterize the engines, genset and AC system.
With the faucet in the engineroom you don't need the ball valve, just turn the faucet on and off as needed. Very clean and simple process once it's installed.
BTW, Perko caps interchange with Buck Algonquin as well. |
makomark
Senior Member
Username: makomark
Post Number: 1760
Registered: 09-2008
| | Posted on Monday, October 26, 2009 - 03:25 pm: |
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With FWC, t-stat position is a don't care for inducing antifreeze in the raw side for winterization.
On the "Flushing Caps"; if the use is temporary/emergency, why not eliminate the valves?
On their use as flushing devices/land enablers; make sure you have a good supply system and don't run the engine over idle speed. Higher RPMs are likely to exceed the water delivery capability of the hose.
On the perko caps, can't you slot the closed hole, on the flushing cap, so you can install it and leave the closed cap on the stud? |
Al
Advanced Member
Username: knuckle47
Post Number: 759
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Monday, October 26, 2009 - 03:32 pm: |
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Hey Rick...Not to blow sunshine up your butt... Since you are on the SOC, I had to re-up my membership, it had been dormant for about 1 year. You're like that old EF Hutton commercial..."when EF Hutton speaks, people listen"
Regarding this faucet concept, I would imagine you build a manifold to all of these components? |
RM
Member
Username: rmm
Post Number: 92
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 26, 2009 - 03:42 pm: |
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Also found an easier way to winterize AC as my strainer is tough to get to as is disconnecting hose before pump. Get a small battery powered submersible pump, drop in bucket of AF, push out side hose into overflow thru hull and push AF backwards thru system. Put a bucket under the intake thru hull and catch the AF and then use that AF to winterize head. That stuff is expensive at $4-5 a gallon to dump into the ground. |
Rick Sweeten
Senior Member
Username: linesix
Post Number: 1614
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Monday, October 26, 2009 - 03:53 pm: |
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Al,
No I just do one at a time although I do have all sizes of caps made.
Yeah I'm a card carrying member now. I've been getting pressure from some of the owners to join and Nyla offered to do a feature in the next newsletter if I contribute, so I agreed. (No break on membership though)
Who knows, I might even pick up some work from it.
I don't know if I'll have the information she wants for the 11/2 newsletter, but soon. |
RM
Member
Username: rmm
Post Number: 93
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 26, 2009 - 04:25 pm: |
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Rick do the caps yopu make have the valve and look similar to these pics? What's the price for a 1-1/4"? |
Al
Advanced Member
Username: knuckle47
Post Number: 760
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Monday, October 26, 2009 - 04:27 pm: |
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Well, IF ITS ANY CONSOLATION, I had written 4 or 5 newsletter articles complete with captioned photographs and when my membership expired....I was uncermoniously locked out ! But Nyla was very nice about it |
Bob Dunne
Member
Username: bobct
Post Number: 11
Registered: 10-2009
| | Posted on Monday, October 26, 2009 - 04:36 pm: |
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Al, yes I do. My Crusaders are FWC and have a sea strainer in between the pick up and the raw water impeller.
What I'm looking for is some way to run my engines with some sort of garden hose hook-up. Doesn't need to be for hours or at high speed. Maybe 10-15 mins at a shot in order to test everything out.
I don't want to be hanging in the sling when I fire everything up for the 1st time if I can avoid it! |
RM
Member
Username: rmm
Post Number: 94
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 26, 2009 - 05:08 pm: |
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Use this cap will work fine for that or if not Perko strainers try the groco option. |
makomark
Senior Member
Username: makomark
Post Number: 1763
Registered: 09-2008
| | Posted on Monday, October 26, 2009 - 05:56 pm: |
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The groco's i have run the retaining stud thru the center of the cap....bet that's why their flushing attachment goes on the thru-hull. |
Fastjeff
Senior Member
Username: fastjeff
Post Number: 7008
Registered: 09-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 26, 2009 - 06:37 pm: |
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.."Jeff if a FWC engine, why would you need the thermostat to open...we are only trying to get the raw water side full of the pink stuff...."
No. Should have added that fact, Ted. Sorry.
Jeff |
Scott Wilson
Member
Username: vikingtime
Post Number: 4
Registered: 05-2009
| | Posted on Monday, October 26, 2009 - 07:00 pm: |
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Rick,
I have a faucet/hose in my engine room which feeds off my fresh water tank.
I'm trying to understand how you use that to winterize the engines? I assuming you're not filling up your FW tank with enough anti-freeze that you then send it through your raw water intakes...right?
I'm interested in learning if there's a better way then the buckets full of anti-freeze directly into the raw water intakes. I've never used that hose in the engine room for anything, maybe this is the time.
Thanks! |
Rick Sweeten
Senior Member
Username: linesix
Post Number: 1615
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Monday, October 26, 2009 - 08:30 pm: |
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You should be draining the water out of the water tank and adding AF to your water system already, why not put enough AF in there to winterize?
Why use buckets of AF when you can put it in the water tank and run it through the faucet? Just connect the strainer cap shown above and turn on the faucet, for that matter, forget the cap and just run the hose into the strainer. The engine will take it from there. |
Scott Wilson
Member
Username: vikingtime
Post Number: 5
Registered: 05-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 27, 2009 - 02:43 pm: |
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Thanks Rick.
If you're winterizing your water system, twin engines, generator and A/C...how many gallons are you sticking in your tank? My main concern would be that the engines each guzzle a 5 gallon bucket in about 30 seconds (which I can watch and I know for sure how much ran through). I could see myself quickly using/wasting allot more antifreeze than necessary (or maybe not using enough? - I guess as long as it come out the exhaust I'm fine.)...I know A/F is not too expensive, but I'm going through about 4 cases (using the "manual methods") when everything is done.
I will definitely consider the FW tank method, it'd be much simplier and cleaner; thanks allot for the information! |
Ricardo E.
Advanced Member
Username: ricardomarine_vp
Post Number: 722
Registered: 03-2009
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 28, 2009 - 08:31 am: |
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I don't want to be misunderstood here..... these flushing kits/systems are great to dilute salt water and reduce salt water corrosion via neutralizing chemicals..... whether I/O or I/B! My issue is with using them for winterizing freeze protection particularly and especially for any of you Raw Water Cooled Engine people.
quote: "Just get a spare section of garden hose and drop in 5 gallon bucket of antifreeze or attach hose to flush motor w/ fresh or run when out of water"....... "Like to hear any comments/suggestions also."
RM, Jeff is correct.......... if your engine is equipped with a Closed Cooling System, the stat will open "on demand" but has no bearing on this flushing of the raw water side of your system.
My take on this, (if I may), is that this method is risky if you do not know exactly what you are doing.
I'll also add that draining your engine block and exhaust manifolds afterwards is important.
My concern is Dilution of the Antifreeze from residual raw water in the engine/exhaust cooling areas!!!!!
And for raw water cooled engines, the temp must come up in order for the thermostat to open...... and not only open, but to remain open as to allow enough time for an exchange of the remaining raw water in the engine for that of the antifreeze being introduced...... hence the dilution thing again!
AIR will not freeze and cause expansion damage!
Rick, you seem to pull some weight here, and I don't know if you are recommending this and/or practicing this yourself, but maybe a comment from you here would be helpful!
There are several of these flush kits being sold (I/O's also) that offer a claim that you can winterized using them. To me, this is a misnomer and is a very irresponsible claim under the guise that the "average Joe" can do it correctly!
Like mentioned, the issues are; Thermostat not fully opening (raw water cooled engines) and Dilution of the Antifreeze being introduced.
If you are NOT the average Joe, and perhaps do this professionally, you are likely going to simply drain down all components that contain raw water.
Again, please use caution if you intend to winterize using this method and if you were to NOT DRAIN again!
I'd recommend that we always drain..... it's tried and proven that AIR will not freeze and cause expansion damage!
BTW, the RV pink antifreeze offers little corrosion inhibitors compared to E/G.
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Fastjeff
Senior Member
Username: fastjeff
Post Number: 7028
Registered: 09-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 28, 2009 - 11:31 am: |
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To be scientifically correct, the best way to store a raw water cooled motor is to pull a vacuum on the water passages! No air, no rust. Since that is obviously impractical, the best alternative is to fill that sucker to the top with Pink Stuff; and even if it had no rust inhibitors what so ever, it's keeping air/ moisture from generating rust.
Jeff |
makomark
Senior Member
Username: makomark
Post Number: 1773
Registered: 09-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 28, 2009 - 12:26 pm: |
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Actually, pulling sufficient vacuum will ensure no water as it will boil away in no time. No water & no air guarantees no rust.
I believe a cooling passage, especially cast iron, filled with a liquid will rust much slower than one exposed to air. The Mercury & Mercruiser Master mechanic that taught me did it this way, successfully, for decades. Proven in the mid-atlantic area. |
Ricardo E.
Advanced Member
Username: ricardomarine_vp
Post Number: 724
Registered: 03-2009
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 28, 2009 - 12:44 pm: |
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Agreed.... the vacuum idea is obviously impractical!
For quite some years now, my marine engines have all had Closed Cooling systems, but I do work on ones that are not.
If you consider that some raw water cooled engines/exhaust systems up in the Great Lakes area have been fine for 30+ years or so, it gives you an idea of just how long some of these components can last!
(Salt water would be a completely different scenario!)
But if we are discussing fresh water boats, the minute amount of additional rust/corrosion contributed, by being stored "dry" during the off season, is paled in comparison by what freeze damage may cause.
If mine were Raw Water cooled, I'd still take the air and rust any day over risking freeze damage.
My whole point in my previous post was to emphasize that sucking any type of anti-freeze into your raw water system under the guise that you will end up with a suitable strength mixture that will offer adequate freeze protection, is risky!
If you can guarantee that this reaches the necessary areas and remains reasonably "un-diluted", then by all means do it!
I have no problem with that..... but you may not be the average Joe who may be buying a DIY'r kit and doing this himself for his first time!
For "this Joe", the risk is certainly there!
I'm sure that some of us have spoken with someone, who come spring time, has said: "Wow, my block is cracked, and I did everything just as I thought I should have!"
If you want corrosion protection, and an anti-freeze with lower temperature protection, use E/G/h2o for your engine block/manifold winterizing, but be prepared to capture it in the spring time and properly dispose of it.
Actually, the RV stuff should be captured as well.... but that's a different topic!
Good thread... good topic! |
RM
Member
Username: rmm
Post Number: 95
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 28, 2009 - 05:03 pm: |
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Ricardo, you think too much.....my boat is FWC and I should have put that in original post, but this works even if RWC just need to make sure warm motor and get t-stat open first. I first flush a good bit of fresh water through to clean out the system and then run about 6 gallons of the pink antifreeze thru to make sure no water left in system. I always catch in white bucket to see it is the same dark pink as out of the bottle. I have been winterizing this way for 20 yrs in Mid Atlantic with no problems. I also agree with others that I would MUCH rather have the system filled with antifreeze than air to minimize corrosion. I have never understood why people recommend draining a system that has been filled with salt water and leaving that way for 4-5 months. If I were further north I would consider using the stronger antifreeze, but doesnt get cold enough down here in Maryland to warrant it. |
Fastjeff
Senior Member
Username: fastjeff
Post Number: 7029
Registered: 09-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 28, 2009 - 06:33 pm: |
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Procedure for raw water cooled motors only:
1. Drain ALL of the water from the block and exhaust system (mine has 6 plugs per motor).
2. Remove the t-stats (or the Pink Stuff will manly go out the exhaust--think about it).
3. Suck Pink Stuff in via the raw water pump. I pour it directly into the strainer. (With outdrives, you have to use a muff.) Keep adding until it comes out the back.
4. Done.
Following the above procedure will leave very little air and nearly no water inside the motor or exhaust system to cause corrosion or freeze damage.
Jeff |
Rick Sweeten
Senior Member
Username: linesix
Post Number: 1617
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 28, 2009 - 09:49 pm: |
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Like anything on your boat, if you're not sure what you're doing, pay someone who does. Learning by making mistakes can become very costly.
Personally, I do not remove thermostats on RWC engines. On your own boat, where you do it every year, it's great. On some of the stuff I work on, you open a can of worms with every bolt you try to remove. A can of worms most owners are not prepared to pay for (yet). Every component on the engine that holds water has a drain, I use them.
Like you guys, I agree that the block is better protected with something in the system. I usually pull the hoses and backfill the system with RV antifreeze. |
Don Keye
Member
Username: willow
Post Number: 81
Registered: 11-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 28, 2009 - 10:06 pm: |
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Personally, I do not remove thermostats on RWC engines
Same here....13 years and no problems and I hope it stays that way |
Fastjeff
Senior Member
Username: fastjeff
Post Number: 7033
Registered: 09-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 29, 2009 - 06:44 am: |
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Yikes! Mine look like hell after a year of use. I usually put new ones in every year, but this time I'm gonna take a chance (since they are getting pricey).
Jeff |
Don Keye
Member
Username: willow
Post Number: 83
Registered: 11-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, October 29, 2009 - 08:49 am: |
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Fastjeff...maybe my post was a little misleading...I don't mean I have left the same thermostat in the engine for 13 years !!!!
I change the thermostats about every three years ....I just don't remove them to winterize. |
Henry G Pelletier
Member
Username: cruisers00
Post Number: 67
Registered: 01-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, October 29, 2009 - 08:12 pm: |
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doing the same without problem(s) |
