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Message |
    
cc183
Member
Username: cc183
Post Number: 8
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, April 17, 2008 - 05:36 pm: | 
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Engine is 350 cu in in Harbormaster houseboat. I winterized last fall by running antifreeze through the engine. Checked oil before starting for the first time this season and showed 2 quarts above full. Pumped out and found I had about a gallon of antifreeze in the crankcase. The oil and antifreeze apparently had not mixed. Marine dealer seemss to think it may just be a defective oil cooler rather than cracked head or bad head gasket. I did notice some steam coming from the engine exhaust at the end of the season but the water temp gauge never moved. Had lots of water coming out the exhaust.
My question is: Has anyone else had or heard of this problem?
Thanks |
Al Lombardo
Advanced Member
Username: knuckle47
Post Number: 160
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Friday, April 18, 2008 - 09:52 am: |
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I too would think that if you had blended the mixture while the engine was running, it would not separate out of the emulsified solution. SO, it likely did just lay on top of the oil during the winterization. From where, I would not know |
Al Lombardo
Advanced Member
Username: knuckle47
Post Number: 161
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Friday, April 18, 2008 - 05:56 pm: |
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As I thought about this I, OF COURSE, had a similiar problem. Mine however, was caused by a bad exhaust elbow from the manifold. Unfortunately it went further down the line and eventually killed the head. How old are the parts of this engine? |
cc183
Member
Username: cc183
Post Number: 10
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Friday, April 18, 2008 - 06:53 pm: |
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The boat is a 1987 model so I assume the engines are about the same maybe one model year older. I am really hoping it is not the heads or head gasket, rather the oil cooler. Replacing the heads will be quite expensive and I had planned to try to sell the boat this spring. Won't be easy with almost 2,000 hours on the engines and transmissions. The Crusaders have been great engines. Keep good oil in them and tune them up every other year and they cause very few problems. This anitfreeze problem is my first real big concern.
Thanks for the info. |
Todd Moore
Advanced Member
Username: concritter
Post Number: 105
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Monday, April 21, 2008 - 05:49 pm: |
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I see a compession test on the way.Better to know now instead of after the sale where the buyers guy fixes it, and more, under your wallet....Todd |
Tim Griffin
Member
Username: alaska_av8r
Post Number: 23
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 22, 2008 - 12:05 am: |
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Here CC try this link, it is for mercruiser but the same principles may help
http://www.boatfix.com/merc/Bullet/01/01_13.pdf |
cc183
Member
Username: cc183
Post Number: 11
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 30, 2008 - 05:04 pm: |
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Follow up....
Had compression checked out today by dealer. All cylinders check between 110-125 lbs. The oil cooler they pulled off was determined by them to be the TRANSMISSION oil cooler and has nothing to do with anti freeze getting into the oil pan.
Now I see nothing else to do but fire the engine up, let it get up to temp, turn it off, let it sit for a day or two and recheck to see if there is any water in the oil.
Anyone else have any ideas. Dealer is stumped and I don't want to start yanking off cylinder heads if indeed that is NOT the problem. |
mrpops
Advanced Member
Username: mrpops
Post Number: 148
Registered: 09-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 30, 2008 - 08:01 pm: |
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run engine to normal operating temp then take a compression check something may be opening up when hot |
Stu W
Member
Username: stumedic
Post Number: 50
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 30, 2008 - 10:58 pm: |
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My vote is exhaust. |
cc183
Member
Username: cc183
Post Number: 12
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2008 - 07:06 am: |
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Stu I though about exhaust since it is mixed with water as it exits the boat. However, I'm not knowledgeable enough to know where the exhause and water come together allowing a leak to become possible. There was almost a gallon of antifreeze in the oil pan. Seems there must be a significant breach somewhere.
If you have the opportunity perhaps you could take a minute and enlighten me. Thanks. |
Stu W
Member
Username: stumedic
Post Number: 51
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2008 - 03:15 pm: |
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If you have a riser leak, like Al said, the anti-freeze that you winterized the boat with could leak into the manifold, into the cylinders and down into your oil pan. If the problem was a cooler I would think that your oil and antifreeze would be mixed and not seperate in the pan. I had a similar problem once on a 392 Palmer. Stu |
cc183
Member
Username: cc183
Post Number: 13
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2008 - 04:03 pm: |
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Appreciate the info. Makes sense to me. The antifreeze and oil were not mixed. Apparently the oil was sitting on the antifreeze because I pumped almost a gallon of AF out before getting any oil. I'm hoping since I changed the oil before starting there is no internal damage to the engine. I plan to fire it up Tuesday and see what happens.
Is there some way to test the risers short of removing and inspecting? |
Bondo
Advanced Member
Username: bondo
Post Number: 971
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2008 - 07:01 pm: |
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"Is there some way to test the risers short of removing and inspecting?"
Nope.......
It's pretty much Got to be the risers,......
Or....
Possibly Freeze damage....
A Gallon is Alot of water,+ I don't think the risers hold that much..... |
Tim Griffin
Member
Username: alaska_av8r
Post Number: 30
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2008 - 11:51 pm: |
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CC the exhaust gases travel through the manifold within a tube, around this tube is where the water travels, then both go up and over the riser, and normally mix on the downside of the riser (may differ slightly depending on manifold riser combo). You could pull put a water hose to the input on the manifold without running the engine (requires removing input hose). Let it run for a few minutes then pull the spark plugs on that side turn motor over (don't start it) and look for water to discharge out of the spark plug holes. If you find water it would indicate a major leak in the manifold/riser.
Option two....pull the manifolds/risers turn them upside down and fill the water input with water, let them sit for an hour or so, then look into the exhaust tube for evidence of water....
Best option, pull them and take them to a radiator shop and have them pressure test them..
It is going to depend on the size of the leak as to which method will work....and of course a pressure test will work regardless.
I would avoid running the engine any further until source of water is found, water does not compress like air in a cylinder and could severely damage your engine. |
cc183
Member
Username: cc183
Post Number: 14
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Friday, May 02, 2008 - 07:16 am: |
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Thanks guys. I really appreciate the info. I will let you know how I come out. I have winterized this boat the same way for 10 years and others similiar for 10 years before that. Never had a problem. I'm afraid it's like me. Getting old and wearing out!! |
cc183
Member
Username: cc183
Post Number: 15
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2008 - 05:59 pm: |
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Follow up on antifreeze in crankcase.
I ran the boat on the river today for two hours. It started like new, ran great, had plenty of power, and never showed any trace of steam coming from exhaust. Oil pressure was good and water temp stayed right on normal. Sounded good, ran good.
Back to dock, let it sit for about 20 minutes and checked oil. Oil right on full mark, no trace of water.
I still have no idea what is going on. Hard to believe the engine does not have a problem but for the life of me I cannot determine what it is. I plan to change the oil again and put good 30W as I always have.
I appreaciate everyones thoughts and suggestions. |
Todd Moore
Advanced Member
Username: concritter
Post Number: 142
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2008 - 08:38 pm: |
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Ran it for 2 hrs. and oil is still at full,with no extra is terrific.As long as your temps stay in line also...I would do as you are...run it and keep checking....Todd |
cc183
Member
Username: cc183
Post Number: 16
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2008 - 09:54 pm: |
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That's my plan at this time Todd. Nevertheless, common sense tells me this engine has a problem and I suspect it is a crack in the head. I may run it for a few hours, take a sample of the oil and run a oil analysis to see if it contains water.
Stay tuned. LOL! |
cc183
Member
Username: cc183
Post Number: 17
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 03:55 pm: |
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The saga continues. Checked the oil today and found "milky" residue in the oil filler cap in the valve cover. Also looked down at the valves and everything looks "milky" gray. Yep, Houston, we have a problem. I knew it was too good to be true. Looks like the next step is to have it torn down and find the problem. This is going to be expensive! |
Al Lombardo
Advanced Member
Username: knuckle47
Post Number: 186
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 08:13 pm: |
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CC... When I had this similiar problem, although I too did the oil analysis, you already know from the milky oil mix that you have a problem. Rather than wait til the middle of July to have this finished, look into those exhaust elbows with a good light and see if htere are signs of deterioration, MY GUESS is that you have the elbows, a block off plate and maybe those water adapters. The block off plate is a stopper between the two coolants so IF your elbows are turning to dust, you may see this immediately. One of the things I had overlooked was the cups of "iron ore" gravel I had removed from the mufflers. Since I had already torn down the top end, I just thought we had some stones in the transom outlets ESPECIALLY that we are stored on a gravel lot( I figured maybe some kids were playing nereby and stuffed some gravel in the "exhaust pipe".). When the mufflers were shaken, you could HEAR and then SEE this stuff. The only difference was that the gravel was grey and the rot was RUST !
Now that THAT engine is finished and runs AMAZINGLY FANTASTIC...I am faced with this similar meltdown on the other side. AND GUESS WHAT...I jiggled the wet exhaust hose to shake the muffler....it rattles just like the other had ! |
cc183
Member
Username: cc183
Post Number: 18
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 08:34 pm: |
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Thanks Al. I will check that out as that would be far less expensive than the heads or block. I will try to upload a photo of my exhaust heads so you can see the type I have.  |
Stu W
Member
Username: stumedic
Post Number: 62
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2008 - 08:37 am: |
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That is one easy to work on looking engine. I didn't know it was fwc! Just pull the risers and the oil cooler and have them pressure tested. Shouldn't take more than a day and then you can relax for the summer. Stu |
cc183
Member
Username: cc183
Post Number: 19
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2008 - 02:16 pm: |
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Going to check the risers first (hope this is the problem) and then if they check OK, plan to pull the heads and have them checked out. May be cracked head or blown gasket. However, all cylinders tested good under compression test. Engine runs storng with good oil pressure and temp. |
Peter H
Member
Username: pfhlaw
Post Number: 43
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 03, 2008 - 03:43 pm: |
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Try a leakdown test. It can tell you a lot more than a compression test can. |
cc183
Member
Username: cc183
Post Number: 20
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 03, 2008 - 04:04 pm: |
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This is the way the engine looks today. Parts shipped out to machine shop for inspection.
 |
cc183
Member
Username: cc183
Post Number: 21
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2008 - 03:49 pm: |
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Just got the call. The clyinder head is bad. Has a crack and is leaking near the number seven spark plug. This would explain why I was getting a slight mist of steam out the exhaust from the engine at the end of last season.
Now getting prices on a new cylinder head.
Question is this. I plan to sell the boat in fact it has a "For Sale" sign on it now. Of course a sign does not mean it will sell. Is there any logical reason why I should spend additional money to get both heads replaced rather than just the one that is bad? |
Rick Sweeten
Senior Member
Username: linesix
Post Number: 1215
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, June 07, 2008 - 09:29 pm: |
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I would certainly pull it and have it redone. Cracked heads are not a chronic problem with these engines but you can have it magnafluxded just to be sure. |
cc183
Member
Username: cc183
Post Number: 22
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 10, 2008 - 12:19 pm: |
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Decision made. Going to replace both cylinder heads on the engine. Reasoning: Just because I have a "for sale" sign in the window doesn't mean it will sell!!
New heads are $531 each. Not as much as I feared. |
Stu W
Member
Username: stumedic
Post Number: 78
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 10, 2008 - 07:19 pm: |
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Anyway, like I said before, it's easier to get rid of herpes than it is to sell a boat these days. There's a Viking 35' for sale over here for 25k and the guy can't even get a nibble. The flybridge Tiara sold for under 25k-and it is a nice looking boat. I seriously doubt that in today's market I'd get 5k for my boat, so I think I'm just gonna have to keep it. Just keep them running and enjoy them. Stu |
Al Lombardo
Advanced Member
Username: knuckle47
Post Number: 217
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 10, 2008 - 10:05 pm: |
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Stu,
There is a guy around the corner with a 22 or 24' center console with 175 Evinrude and dual axle trailer. He started at 7500...1 week 7200...1 more week 6500...today 4800....STILL THERE |
cc183
Member
Username: cc183
Post Number: 23
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 - 02:53 pm: |
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Work is complete. Replaced both cylinder heads with new and engine runs great again. Total charges for everything were slightly under $4,000 including parts and labor. Replaced a couple of hoses, thermostat, spark plugs etc.
Now we wait for the other engine to do the same!!
Thanks for all the input on this subject.
Happy boating. |
