| Author |
Message |
    
Bill Butler
New member
Username: wmbutler
Post Number: 3
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, October 18, 2009 - 07:40 pm: | 
|
Symptoms:
- Engine will not exceed 3600 rpm under load
- Engine beeps intermittently with overheat alarm but quickly cools off once RPMs are dropped to 1900
- Engine clacks on top rhythmically consistent with RPM after 1500 rpm (and higher) is reached (but not under 1500 rpm).
- Engine clacks whether under load (in gear) or not.
- No water or radiator fluid in oil
- No bubbling in radiator reservoir
Measures taken thus far
- Impeller new and clear
- Radiator hoses new and clear
- Radiator fluid proper 50/50 mix and not leaking, cap verified as not leaking.
- Heat exchanger inspected and verified clear of crap, impeller blades, etc.
- Fresh water flow very good
- Exhaust Manifolds removed and inspected (clear).
- Plug wires and spark coils have been swapped with my known good engine to troubleshoot integrity of those components.
- Oil and oil filter just changed to 20w50 synthetic.
- Injectors for suspect cylinders 4 and 6 have been pulled and swapped with known good cylinders. The problem stayed with the bad cylinders (did not follow the injectors).
- Removed valve cover and inspected rockers for any play. I could not move any of them. Everything looked very clean. No bent rods or valves noticed (but I did not remove the head).
- All cylinders and plugs are hot after engine runs (even 4 and 6)
Planned tests/maintenance
- Compression test has not been run. I am borrowing a tool tomorrow to run the test.
- Seafoam in oil and air intake.
Other notes
- This engine is a closed cooling system with a heat exchanger.
- 375hp Volvo Penta, 2001, 8.1 GiI-B, serial 4012064207, gasoline
- I have a MEFI4 electronic analyzer and I ran a balance test, disabling cylinders one at a time while running at 1500 rpm. When I disabled cylinders 4 and 6, the engine rpms did not change noticeably. Disabling all other cylinders individually caused the engine rpms to dip noticeably.
I hope I included everything but I'm sure there will be questions. Any ideas? Can we narrow this down to just a few components. I'm thinking head gasket. |
Rick Sweeten
Senior Member
Username: linesix
Post Number: 1595
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, October 18, 2009 - 09:41 pm: |
|
Any DTC codes? How is the OP and temp?
Head gasket would give the symptoms you describe but would also be leaking coolant into the cylinders. This would show up on the plugs and you would be loosing coolant from your reservoir.
The alarm you hear may be the knock sensor engaging. That's why it is critical to know the DTC history.
It could be as simple as a crank sensor or MAP sensor but the compression test will be very helpful. |
Bill Butler
Member
Username: wmbutler
Post Number: 4
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, October 18, 2009 - 10:14 pm: |
|
When my MEFI analyzer arrived, it had 2 codes: -Low Oil Pressure and Overheat. I reset those codes and need to run the engine until the alarm sounds again to see if the same codes come on.
-The low oil pressure is surprising since the oil level has never been below the marks on the dipstick.
-There was no knock sensor warning.
-The only other thing that I have noticed at idle is that the spark advance settles around 2-3 degrees instead of the published 10 degrees in the manual, but I know nothing of advance. |
Rick Sweeten
Senior Member
Username: linesix
Post Number: 1596
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, October 18, 2009 - 11:05 pm: |
|
If the engine overheated it is very possible the oil pressure would have been low due to the additional temp. There is no DTC for knock retard but the engine history will show how many times and for how long the engine ran in the knock retard condition.
The timing at idle is not important as long as the engine idles OK and since your timing is not adjustable I wouldn't be concerned with it. I would, however, check the timing at WOT. This reading is important (around 36 if I recall). If the engine is not achieving full advance, there is an issue. |
Bill Butler
Member
Username: wmbutler
Post Number: 5
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 19, 2009 - 03:36 pm: |
|
Just completed the compression test. Ugly on Cylinder 4 and concern on cylinders 5,6 and 1. Also, the number 4 spark plug has some ugly deposits (this plug is only about 5 hours old!). I've included pictures and welcome your input regarding the type of deposit left on the plug. I also welcome any suggestions as to next steps...
Compression Test Results:
1 126
2 167
3 163
4 53 (yikes)
5 115
6 125
7 140
8 142
 |
Robert A. Fierro
Advanced Member
Username: sandkicker
Post Number: 959
Registered: 06-2008
| | Posted on Monday, October 19, 2009 - 04:23 pm: |
|
Together with you compression readings and
"Engine clacks on top rhythmically consistent with RPM .... "
I'd consider the possibility of bad hydraulic lifters.
Also... did the engine ever run properly for you?
IFSO, when did the problem start?
|
Bill Butler
Member
Username: wmbutler
Post Number: 6
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 19, 2009 - 04:54 pm: |
|
As I look back on it, I do not believe that this engine has ever run properly (I bought the boat used). I don't think I've ever seen it over 3700 rpms at WOT, and it's rated for 4600 at WOT. I have some updated compression numbers:
1 130 (4psi higher than prev test)
2 167
3 163
4 53
5 123 (7psi higher than prev test)
6 125
7 140
8 142 |
Bill Butler
Member
Username: wmbutler
Post Number: 7
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 19, 2009 - 05:00 pm: |
|
Robert,
You mention the possibilities of bad lifters. I inspected the length of every lifter (without removing the head). They do not appear bent. What else could be wrong with the lifter? All rocker arms look good. I was unable to view the valve without the head removed so I can see how might be a valve. Thanks for your input. |
Robert A. Fierro
Advanced Member
Username: sandkicker
Post Number: 960
Registered: 06-2008
| | Posted on Monday, October 19, 2009 - 05:28 pm: |
|
Lets get some nomenclature straight...
The engine turns the cam
The cam pushes on the lifters (which use hydraulic pressure for operation)
The lifters push on the push rods (which is what you measured)
The push rods push on the rocker arms
The rocker arms push on the valves.
The only way to "see" the lifters is to remove the rocker arm, then remove the push rod, then use a magnet to remove the lifter. |
Bill Butler
Member
Username: wmbutler
Post Number: 8
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 19, 2009 - 06:30 pm: |
|
Ahhhhh,
So the lifter is not the rod. I thought the lifter was the rod as well. Very interesting! I'm going to go look at some parts diagrams. Thanks!
What exactly goes wrong with lifters? Do they have excessive wear? Are there bearings involved? Just curious. |
Bill Butler
Member
Username: wmbutler
Post Number: 9
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 19, 2009 - 06:41 pm: |
|
Is the lifter sometimes called the tappet? Part 27?
 |
Robert A. Fierro
Advanced Member
Username: sandkicker
Post Number: 961
Registered: 06-2008
| | Posted on Monday, October 19, 2009 - 11:41 pm: |
|
that be it... |
Bill Butler
Member
Username: wmbutler
Post Number: 10
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 19, 2009 - 11:59 pm: |
|
OK,
So if I follow the lifter/tappet theory, the flow goes like this:
1. Lifter is damaged on the exhaust side most likely.
2. When lifter was damaged, it created a situation where exhaust gasses could not be pushed out of the combustion chamber (because the exhaust valve could not open fully or possibly not at all) so the only place for them to go was through the head gasket (into the radiator) and/or possibly past the cylinder seals (into the oil).
3. This implies possible damage to the head gasket and cylinder seals of #4.
Am I on the right track here? Going to do some pretty major tear down tomorrow and would love to see some of you guys place odds on the various failed components before I return with pics of the carnage. |
Robert A. Fierro
Advanced Member
Username: sandkicker
Post Number: 962
Registered: 06-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 03:30 pm: |
|
RE: "only place for them to go was through the head gasket (into the radiator) and/or possibly past the cylinder seals (into the oil). "
No, since you said...
RE: "- No water or radiator fluid in oil
- No bubbling in radiator reservoir"
Blown head gaskets usually result in fluid in oil or radiator issues.
Tappet check does not require a major teardown.
Check the easy to do/fix stuff first...
Per your scenario.... incomplete exhaust gas scavanging will result in poor incoming fuel/air mixture on next cycle.
Also... tappet falure is no more likely on the exhaust as on the intake. My guess, is the intake as this is a FI engine and I would expect a rich mixture if the cylinder is getting most or if not all of its full load of fuel but not enough air... and your plugs look like they are running rich... unless that's oil on the plugs. |
Bill Butler
Member
Username: wmbutler
Post Number: 11
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 03:56 pm: |
|
OK,
So is it possible for me to get the lifter/tappet out with just the valve cover off? I guess I need to remove the rocker, lift the rod out and then use a magnet to recover the tappet/lifter?
When I remove the rocker, I assume it is important for me to accurately mark the position of that nut correct? |
Bill Butler
Member
Username: wmbutler
Post Number: 12
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 04:02 pm: |
|
Rick,
Looking at my #4 plug above, does that look like radiator fluid deposits? I really can't tell. I did notice that the reservoir is low and I know that I had it almost full the other day. I'm beginning to suspect a leak at the head gasket possibly in addition to the riser/tappet.
I tried to pull the head today, but I think it's out of my league. Just attempting to loosen the first bolt was pretty challenging. |
Robert A. Fierro
Advanced Member
Username: sandkicker
Post Number: 965
Registered: 06-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 06:36 pm: |
|
That is the procedure..
Nut ( #22 in diagram) is reinstalled and torqued to a specified torque value.
You might try pressure testing the cooling system. It's a simple test... tester available in any auto parts store. |
Bill Butler
Member
Username: wmbutler
Post Number: 13
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 07:43 pm: |
|
I pulled the nut out and pulled the rod out and I could see the lifter, but it appears to be fastened in place. Does it just lift out or is it secured by something? |
joe somers
Member
Username: pjsomers2
Post Number: 48
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 08:13 pm: |
|
You can't take the lifter out without the head being off. I have the same engine just had to replace it because I lost two pistons due to mysterious cause, I do have allot of spare parts off my old engine if you find out you need anything let me know. Stuff like cam sensor crank sensor etc. You can't reuse the head bolts on that engine they have to be new. |
Rick Sweeten
Senior Member
Username: linesix
Post Number: 1597
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 09:08 pm: |
|
You might get lucky and only have a bad valve but it sounds like you lost a piston, probably due to a leaking head gasket. The rattle you hear is most likely the wrist pin. When water or coolant gets into the cylinder and sits a bit the wrist pin gets rusted. Once the engine is restarted the rust cuts away at the pin bore.
By the way you can remove a lifter without pulling the head, although you do have to remove the intake manifold, then the lifter retainer but why bother, the head has to come off anyway. A bad lifter will not cause low compression, a bent or burnt valve will. Either way, the head has to come off to make the repair.
This is not difficult with a little guidance. The rockers are non-adjustable, they just get torqued so indexing is not required when disassembling. That engine does use "torque to yield" head bolts which are not reusable. They stretch when initially torqued so you will need a new set. I think they're about $60.00/set.
I probably have a good rebuildable head if you find yours to be junk.
Good luck,
Rick |
Bill Butler
Member
Username: wmbutler
Post Number: 14
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 09:40 pm: |
|
The only argument against a piston problem might be that the tapping sound does not begin until the engine reaches 1500 rpm. It doesn't tap in idle. Seems that many of the threads I have read point to a piston if the noise is low on startup and then fades as the piston heats up. I know it's all speculation until the head is removed. Hopefully someone will call me back tomorrow who can look at it. At the moment, I'm kinda sick to my stomach wondering about the possibilities and definitely wishing that removing the head wasn't such a major ordeal. |
Rick Sweeten
Senior Member
Username: linesix
Post Number: 1598
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 10:06 pm: |
|
There is no load on the piston at idle and it's less likely to tap with no load on it. Let us know what you find. |
joe somers
Member
Username: pjsomers2
Post Number: 50
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 12:30 am: |
|
Hey Rick is right if you take off the intake manifold you can remove the lifter, intake gasket is about $100.00 bucks. I just don't see it being the lifter. Hey Bill I feel for you I was sick to my stomach too, I am in southern California I don't know where you are but you can have any parts I have left over they are just going to the junk yard which is a shame because most of them are still good but the stuff is so heavy and bulky its hard to keep around just in case. Either way good luck. The 8.1 is great when it runs but expensive to replace, If you do need to rebuild or replace I can let you know the route I took and some of the prices. |
Bill Butler
Member
Username: wmbutler
Post Number: 15
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, October 25, 2009 - 10:48 am: |
|
I removed the exhaust manifold enough to stick my finger into the exhaust valve area. I noticed some significant differences in how the exhaust valve stem felt.
- #4 stem had all kinds of sharp crusty deposits on it. The other stems were smooth.
- The metal surface inside the exhaust chamber of the head was not smooth like the other 3. There was a curved area just above the valve stem that felt pitted with sharp edges.
- Obviously it's an exhaust path so it's going to be dirty, but #4 was quite a bit dirtier. I'm speculating that the lack of compression is due to the exhaust valve not closing fully due to deposits at this point.
So, I'm in the Bahamas and it's hard to find a gas engine mechanic. I was toying with putting things back together and pushing through a couple of bottles of seafoam deep creep through the intake manifold before I commit to the head removal. Maybe the deep creep will get the crud off the exhaust valve and solve the problem.
Thoughts? |
Bill Butler
Member
Username: wmbutler
Post Number: 16
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, October 25, 2009 - 04:51 pm: |
|
I think that a stuck exhaust valve makes a lot of sense. This would cause (a) low compression (b) high exhaust manifold temperatures since the combustion is essentially going straight out the exhaust (much higher temperatures than the exhaust gas only).
From what I've heard, people have had some success with using oven clean to clean stuck valves without removing the head. Has anyone ever tried this? |
tom begley
New member
Username: thomas_b
Post Number: 1
Registered: 10-2009
| | Posted on Sunday, October 25, 2009 - 08:25 pm: |
|
the way I see your problem,you are suffering from lack of performance,engine noise,overheating and deposit issues on both valve stem & spark plug on #4 cylinder.I think the task at hand is to come up with the common denominator with these symptoms in mind. Performance and compression go hand in hand but what is the cause of our low compression and can we relate it to the rest of our symptoms? So with upper engine noise, most likley excessive valve rocker to valve stem clearance for whatever reason,(faulty lifter or bent valve stem or a chunk of carbon under the valve seat( what makes the most sense )when you total the other problems into the mix. I tend to think that we have at least a sticking if not bent valve , this would explain the upper engine tapping also the low compression. this would also have to do with the performance of other cylinders due to contaminating air /fuel charges with incomplete combustion by products due to lack of complete aspiration caused by the #4 problem, also this could cause a general leaning of fuel to other cylinders creating a heating problem. I think it safe to say at the very least the affected head will need to be removed for evaluation and repair. Before doing any more disassembly I would strongly suggest a few more tests.I would perform a radiator pressure test with all spark plugs removed (this would serve to check the head gasket integrity somewhat) next I would do a cylinder leakage test whereby air is introduced into each plug port with the respective piston at top dead center and firing. at which point you would just listen for the air leakage exhaust,intake,crankcase,radiator this will help[ to isolate why you have low compression (bent valve/burnt valve/blown head gasket or whatever. just thinking out loud. |
Bill Butler
Member
Username: wmbutler
Post Number: 17
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, October 25, 2009 - 08:52 pm: |
|
Thanks Tom!
Additional information gathered tonight. I added radiator fluid because the plastic reservoir was empty. I ran the engine after using the deep creep. No smoke at all from the deep creep! I was amazed! Every video I've ever seen shows billowing smoke.
Anyhoo, I'm going to try "Bars Leak 3-Step Head Gasket Repair Kit". I have nothing to lose for $70. I've always had moderate steam coming out my exhaust and since I am losing coolant apparently and my coolant is a little milky/cloudy this is worth a shot. Worst case is that it does not work and I'll have to take the head off...which is where I am right now. |
tom begley
New member
Username: thomas_b
Post Number: 2
Registered: 10-2009
| | Posted on Sunday, October 25, 2009 - 09:21 pm: |
|
Bill, just a word of caution. anything capable of stopping or slowing down any head-gasket leak situation will unfortunately have a similar affect on other systems,Sensors and small passages like radiator core tubes and the like. It would be tragic to have to replace a engine but it would be horrific to have to replace engine,radiator,all sensors and related systems! Just saying look before you leap. |
Bill Butler
Member
Username: wmbutler
Post Number: 18
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Monday, November 02, 2009 - 06:45 pm: |
|
All,
I completed the head gasket stop leak process. I used Bar's Leaks head gasket repair. I drained the radiator fluid, filled with water, let it come to temperature and repeated this process 3 times. I then followed the instructions putting the bottle into the radiator and topped off with water. Ran it at 1500 rpms for 20 minutes, let sit for an hour, drained and left open to the air for a day. Refilled and ran. I'm pretty sure that I could tell a difference with cylinder 6. The engine clearly loses rpms when I kill the spark on the #6 cylinder. #4 is unaffected and still generates very little compression.
I read through many different posts regarding exhaust valve cleaning solutions without removing the head. Most opinions center around using oven cleaner. The only gotcha appears to be concern over the effect of oven cleaner on aluminum cylinders. I have no idea if my 8.1GI has aluminum cylinders or not.
So I removed the manifold this afternoon armed with ezoff, a funnel and a small bit of tubing. I snaked the tubing into the exhaust port of #4. I sprayed the oven cleaner liberally. My hope is that it will seep down the exhaust valve and soak the area where the valve seals to the head. Ideally when I fire up the engine the next time, a bunch of junk will blow off and I'll have some sort of seal there again.
So, I'll have some answers in the morning. If nothing else, I believe I will have eliminated head gasket and exhaust valve as issues. Of course it's possible that the oven cleaner is not strong enough to remove all the buildup from the exhaust valve. I also suppose that it's possible for the exhaust valve to be bent, but if the exhaust valve was bent, wouldn't the pushrod on the other side of the rocker likely be bent too? I'm able to move the exhaust valve up and down with about 130 lbs of downward force (me pushing down with a bunch of my weight with a small block of wood). |
tom begley
New member
Username: thomas_b
Post Number: 3
Registered: 10-2009
| | Posted on Monday, November 02, 2009 - 08:11 pm: |
|
Bill, just read your update. I hope for the best for you but I think the other is most likley. I think your on the right track with the valve. One possibility is that the affected cylinder could have carbon deposits to the point that the valve and piston came in contact causing the valve stem to bend and not affecting the push-rod. Remember the class action suite I mentioned about your engine having a known defect due to excessive clearance between piston and cylinder wall allowing excessive piston slap to the point of the piston skirts braking off. I tried to reach you on Skype but could not connect, best of luck let me know if I can help. Had a good visit with Casey over the weekend. |
joe somers
Member
Username: pjsomers2
Post Number: 51
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Monday, November 02, 2009 - 11:22 pm: |
|
Hey Bill can you point me in the right direction as to where I can see something on this class action suit. That exact thing is why I had to replace my engine. Thanks Joe |
Bill Butler
Member
Username: wmbutler
Post Number: 19
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 03, 2009 - 12:18 am: |
|
Tom brought that up. Tom, do you have the class action link. I'll do some google searches tonight. |
Bill Butler
Member
Username: wmbutler
Post Number: 20
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 03, 2009 - 12:42 am: |
|
Here is a link that seems to include the 8.1 GM Engine. The Volvo Penta is based on this block and piston's right?
http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f12/class-action-lawsuit-against-gm-piston-sl ap-4064/ |
Morten Ringvold
Senior Member
Username: haffiman37
Post Number: 4333
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 03, 2009 - 01:49 am: |
|
Great.
They are suing for 'part of the profit' join in and perhaps you may 'win' to get to pay part of the bankruptcy as well. |
Bill Butler
Member
Username: wmbutler
Post Number: 21
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 03, 2009 - 09:48 am: |
|
Ran the engine this morning. As stated before, #6 seems to be acting better, but #4 is still not contributing. Very disheartening. I guess this is coming down to piston slap.
I did notice a very small drip coming from the radiator pump and removed it this morning. Now I need a torx to get the backplate off.
Question: other than leaks, do these radiator pumps ever fail? |
Bill Butler
Member
Username: wmbutler
Post Number: 22
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 03, 2009 - 10:36 am: |
|
I seem to be answering a bunch of my own questions here, but figured I'd post my discoveries in case anyone else is having a similar issue.
I noticed something odd last week but didn't post it because I did not expect it was an issue. After running my engine at idle until the thermostat opened, I shut it down and carefully opened the coolant reservoir. The coolant in the reservoir was cool, like below 90 degrees. Somehow I expected for it to be roughly the same ambient temperature as the rest of the coolant (140+).
Today, after removing the coolant pump, I noticed that the weep hole has a steady drip that increases with rpms. There is a very clear trail showing it exiting the weep hole.
I found the part (non-volvo) for $169 here.
http://www.marineengineparts.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/page5.html
It's clear that the cylinder needs to be addressed, but I am thinking that an underperforming coolant pump may have been the original cause of the overheating that led ultimately to the #4 issue. |
Bill Butler
Member
Username: wmbutler
Post Number: 23
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 03, 2009 - 12:31 pm: |
|
It's also NAPA part number 58566 and they have one in Marsh Harbour at Texaco. Guess I'll pick it up on Friday. |
tom begley
Member
Username: thomas_b
Post Number: 4
Registered: 10-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 03, 2009 - 06:48 pm: |
|
bill
I found the class action discussion by a simple google search 8.1 litter class action suite/ piston slap or you can try www.classcounsel.com you might be on to something with your water-pump theory. I think its time to stop all this guessing and bite the bullet. Pull the intake and at least the affected head and see what is really going on.Only way to really know if you need a repair or a replacement. A new target crate motor might be your best option, Let me know how your doing. Tom |
tom begley
Member
Username: thomas_b
Post Number: 5
Registered: 10-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 03, 2009 - 07:01 pm: |
|
bill, I forgot to mention a response to your water pump question. as a rule water pumps pump and water pumps leak but very seldom do they suffer from diminished performance. the usual failure is leaking or the bearings going bad or both. for the pump to stop pumping the impeller would have to fall off of the shaft or come loose to the point that it would just spin on the shaft. since there is no contact just the impeller pushing water the design is almost fool proof. |
joe somers
Member
Username: pjsomers2
Post Number: 52
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 03, 2009 - 11:15 pm: |
|
Interesting but my engine never made any noise it ran smooth and very quiet. |
Bill Butler
Member
Username: wmbutler
Post Number: 24
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 04, 2009 - 07:28 am: |
|
Joe,
Which pistons did you lose? |
joe somers
Member
Username: pjsomers2
Post Number: 53
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 04, 2009 - 10:56 am: |
|
#4 and #6 |
Bill Butler
Member
Username: wmbutler
Post Number: 25
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 04, 2009 - 11:29 am: |
|
WOW!
Coincidence? I think not! Was it on the starboard engine or the port engine. We might as well complete the parallel universe here. |
Bill Butler
Member
Username: wmbutler
Post Number: 26
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 04, 2009 - 11:43 am: |
|
Joe,
Do you still have the pistons that were damaged? What was the verdict from the mechanic? I'm curious to know if there was
(a) excessive carbon on the pistons or valves
(b) any valve damage
(c) ring problems on the pistons
(d) scratching of the cylinder wall
(e) head gasket rupture of any sort
Thanks for any info you can provide.
Also, is your engine running well now? Do you remember the final bill and hours for the repair? |
joe somers
Member
Username: pjsomers2
Post Number: 54
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, November 07, 2009 - 07:04 pm: |
|
A) No excessive carbon
B) exhaust valves had very minor hardly noticeable nicks and it was very hard to see them.
C) Rings were fine
D) No scratching of the walls
E) Head gasket had failed on the total oposite side where there was no damage to the pistons.
Only noticed that the engine was running ruff and not even that bad so took it to the shop long story short water was in the two pistons and I was wrong it was #4 and #8 pistons, so easy fix just replace head gaskets and hope nothing was damaged like heads or block well after getting the heads off that's when we discoverd the bad pistons. The engine overheat alarm never sounded. I went with a new engine from http://www.perfprotech.com/store/product/New-GM-Longblock-81L496cid-375hp-81496S TD,25311.aspx I just removed all the parts from the old engine and put them on this one went ahead and got new exhaust manifolds and risers and I have over 60 hours on this engine seems very smooth, but so did the old one. Total cost about 10 grand and I did allot of the work myself, other than putting the engine in the boat only because it is to high.
I cant say and the mechanics that worked on it as well as our insurance company's inspector ( It wasn't covered ) could tell me how it happened just lots of guessing. I love the power the engine has and I do have 2 friends with the same engine and they have not had any trouble, so I think maybe just my bad luck. |
Bill Butler
Member
Username: wmbutler
Post Number: 27
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Monday, November 30, 2009 - 04:56 pm: |
|
Installed the new fresh water (coolant) pump. This is clearly an improvement regarding temperature and the weephole no longer leaks. I noticed that my oil pressure stays at an acceptable level at low rpms and idle but drops suddenly above 1800 rpms. Took her out and ran her. The stbd engine set off the alarm and I was finally able to trap the code of 'low oil pressure telltale'. I had a spare oil pressure sender (don't ask) so I swapped it. It showed exactly the same issue. I believe that the oil pump pressure release valve is faulty and staying open at high rpms thereby killing oil pressure.
As stated: It rises gradually with engine rpm and then drops of suddenly anywhere between 1700 and 1800 rpm. When rpms are brought back down, the oil pressure comes back up. Any other theories besides pressure release valve on the oil pump? |
Boat Tech
New member
Username: boat_tech
Post Number: 2
Registered: 12-2009
| | Posted on Sunday, December 27, 2009 - 12:19 am: |
|
From what I can see in the photo of your spark plugs, You may have had the wrong plugs installed, And maybe wrong gap to. You should be running AC delcos.AC 41-983. You might want to make sure the number you are running will cross over to the AC 41-983, But if I was you I would still not run anything but the AC 41-983 just to be safe. Just my 02 worth is all, But i wish you Good luck with it.  |
Bill Butler
Member
Username: wmbutler
Post Number: 28
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, January 03, 2010 - 03:01 pm: |
|
Following the sudden oil pressure drop at high rpms, I decided that it was possible that the pressure release valve on the oil pump could be faulty. My theory was that the pressure release valve spring was weak and that the pressure release was getting stuck.
So I swapped the oil pump by dropping the oil pan, etc. What a pain in the A$$!! The total job took about 8 hours in cramped quarters.
I tested by letting the engine idle for 5 minutes. Then I ran the engine to 2200 rpms for 10 minutes. Oil pressure looked fine at first staying steady between 40 and 60 psi. Then, it dropped and would not come back until I stopped the engine, let it sit and then fire it up again.
Suspecting a faulty sensor, I replaced it only to get the same reading. Already troubleshot the gauge by swapping it as well.
At this point, all I can think is that my oil has been pushed up into the engine, but is not coming back down to the oil pan quickly enough. This allows the oil pump to pump air, killing the pressure.
Are there any other thoughts out there. I've gotten surprisingly few responses from this thread. I can only guess it's because the problem is so difficult to diagnose and has so many variables.
To sum up, what else causes low oil pressure at moderate rpms besides a faulty oil pump?
FYI, for those of you following the thread, oil pressure has always been the issue. The alarm was never related to engine overhead, but rather low oil pressure. |
Pat Phelan
New member
Username: capnlazy
Post Number: 1
Registered: 01-2010
| | Posted on Monday, January 04, 2010 - 09:51 am: |
|
Could be worn out bearings. When the oil warms and thins out, too much oil will pass thru the journals dropping oil pressure. Just a thought. |
Pat Phelan
New member
Username: capnlazy
Post Number: 2
Registered: 01-2010
| | Posted on Monday, January 04, 2010 - 03:08 pm: |
|
Also, are you sure you changed out the sender for the gauge and not the alarm? They are separate and different, the sender for the gauge is much larger. They are usually in the same vicinity. |
Bill Butler
Member
Username: wmbutler
Post Number: 29
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Monday, January 04, 2010 - 06:05 pm: |
|
I swapped the analog sender. I checked continuity of the bell housing to ground. Then I switched to the ohmmeter where it read about 90 ohms which corresponds to roughly 55 PSI. I found a table online (for 0-80psi gauges) from Faria:
240 ohms = 0 psi
103 ohms = 40psi
33.5 ohms = 80psi
I was getting 90 ohms on the multimeter even when my analog gauge was reading zero. Funny thing is that I swapped the gauge so it's not the issue. It turned out to be the damn wiring. It fails at some random point, I suppose when the vibration kicks in. I already had a small gauge wire run for a previous troubleshooting job (don't ask). After this wire swap, the oil pressure seems to be reliable....I guess I swapped an oil pump for no reason 
So now, I'm just back to the tapping in the engine and the low oil pressure telltale during high rpms. I'm tired of dealing with it honestly and think I'll cruise until the engine fails and has to be replaced. I'll just keep my distances short for now. |
Lee eis
Member
Username: ctguy
Post Number: 14
Registered: 11-2009
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 13, 2010 - 09:45 pm: |
|
Bill, did you repair your oil-telltale issue yet, I have some answers fo4r you if not. |
Bill Butler
Member
Username: wmbutler
Post Number: 30
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 09:51 pm: |
|
The low oil pressure analog gauge issue went away after I swapped the wire. I haven't run the engine up to high enough RPMs yet to set off the low oil telltale. I'd love to hear what you have to say though. |
Lee eis
Member
Username: ctguy
Post Number: 16
Registered: 11-2009
| | Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 11:11 pm: |
|
Bill, not sure how wiring got mixed up....
Anyway, I just repaired a customer with the same issue..on a 2001 8.1 gxi-a .
volvos have 2 sensers that will alarm AND reduce rpm.
(with mefi 4 GM ign.) 1 is low oil press and 1 is high water temp. This engine...on rinda tool, kept showing fault at low oil pressure....This was not the problem, The water temp sensers in the RISER are in the same system , therefore showing low oil pressure code on the scanning tool.
This prob. made me crazy for a week,
Look into this, remember you need to run engine at least 3000 rpms.
Hope this helps ya. |
Bill Butler
Member
Username: wmbutler
Post Number: 31
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 11:31 pm: |
|
First to clarify. My engine has never reduced RPM on its own. It beeps when RPMs are held over 3200 RPM for anything longer than a few minutes while under load. When I check the MEFI, the low oil pressure telltale is set.
You said "The water temp sensers in the RISER are in the same system". I'm not sure what you mean by this.
How did you solve the problem? Did it turn out to be a faulty water temperature sensor? If so, did you replace it/them? How many sensors were faulty?
On a related note, where is the sensor for the low oil pressure telltale? Is that the clip at the end of the same T where the analog sender is screwed on?
Thanks for helping me with the issue. Sorry for my ignorance regarding the location of these sensors. |
Lee eis
Member
Username: ctguy
Post Number: 17
Registered: 11-2009
| | Posted on Friday, January 15, 2010 - 10:08 am: |
|
Bill Please call me and ill explain.
941-276-0734
Lee |
Bill Butler
Member
Username: wmbutler
Post Number: 32
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Friday, January 15, 2010 - 10:48 am: |
|
Lee,
Thanks for the talk on the phone. To summarize, you are of the opinion based upon experience, that the low oil pressure telltale could possibly be triggered by a faulty temperature switch on either of the manifolds since GM/Volvo may not have necessarily provided for a separate annunciator. I have confirmed that the manifolds are not running hot to the touch. This leads me to believe that I may have one or two bad temp switches on the manifold. I may swap one with the port engine. None of this changes that fact that my stbd engine clacks still and likely has a cylinder or valve issue.
Lee, my email is bill@butler.net if you'd like to send me the MEFI codes manual that you mentioned. |
