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Message |
    
Bob Griest
Member
Username: hippie
Post Number: 60
Registered: 04-2009
| | Posted on Friday, October 09, 2009 - 07:47 pm: | 
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We tore the engine down this morning and found the upper half to be new! The heads were in excellent condition as were the valves. The head gaskets were not blown nor wore. The rockers were all in excellent condition and adjusted well. It was obvious to all that some one had been inside this engine before us. It has thick rubber valve cover gaskets which are not standard. The cylinders are all smooth and no carbon anywhere. The pistons are in excellent shape but they are stamped with numbers. Not just 1 then 2 but they all have a bunch of numbers on them? Its good news that nothing needs machined but why doesn't it rev up? BTW, when pulling off the heads some water got into the cylinders and it was there all day and did not go down at all. This shows me that the cylinder walls and piston rings are good and tight. We are replacing the solenoid/starter, fuel pump, oil pump and pan gasket. We are going to check the cam clearances and the timing chain so we'll replace the timing cover gasket. The carb was just rebuilt as was the dist. and a new module. In essence I'll have a remanufactured engine plus all new parts that normally don't come with a remanufactured engine, but it is a mystery why it will not rev up. Any suggestions please post them. Thank you all, Bob |
Bt Doctur
Senior Member
Username: bt_doctur
Post Number: 1160
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Friday, October 09, 2009 - 07:54 pm: |
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Did it work properly with the old engine?
The thick gaskets are standard, now neoprene.
Unless you have a 1.32-1 gear ratio in the upper the motor should atleast go 4800 |
Bob Griest
Member
Username: hippie
Post Number: 61
Registered: 04-2009
| | Posted on Friday, October 09, 2009 - 08:14 pm: |
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Bt Doctur, This is the engine that has been in since I bought it 7 yrs ago. It would rev high but now with a 14X15 prop all I get is 3500. Before I would get 4800 with a 15.5X21 prop. That is why I am tearing it apart. Also I forgot to mention we found a head gasket to have a water hole plugged at the gasket. I had an over heating problem but I doubt that 1 hole would cause it to over heat to about 240*. Thanks again, Bob |
Bob Caskey
Advanced Member
Username: bobbyc
Post Number: 473
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Friday, October 09, 2009 - 08:36 pm: |
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Exhaust restriction???? A vacuum gauge can be used to check for vacuum at WOT and to spot any restriction in the exhaust system. |
GJack
New member
Username: gjack
Post Number: 2
Registered: 10-2009
| | Posted on Sunday, October 11, 2009 - 03:43 am: |
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You say the distributor was rebilt but did you check to make sure it was advancing properly? It sounds like the engine isn't getting enough advance. You may have a problem with the advance mechanism It should be getting in the neighborhood of 32 to 38 degrees. |
Bob Griest
Member
Username: hippie
Post Number: 62
Registered: 04-2009
| | Posted on Sunday, October 11, 2009 - 05:48 pm: |
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Yea, we checked that and it is getting full advance. Thanks again, Bob |
Bob Griest
Member
Username: hippie
Post Number: 63
Registered: 04-2009
| | Posted on Sunday, October 11, 2009 - 05:50 pm: |
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All hoses (water) and risers and exhaust manifold are clean. No problems there. Thank you, Bob |
Brian Brackett
Advanced Member
Username: kainon
Post Number: 986
Registered: 03-2009
| | Posted on Monday, October 12, 2009 - 09:57 am: |
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Did you do a compession test before tearing it down? |
Bob Griest
Member
Username: hippie
Post Number: 64
Registered: 04-2009
| | Posted on Monday, October 12, 2009 - 10:31 am: |
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No, we did not do a compression check. The gasket imprints showed tight seals without any folds or tears. All bolts felt evenly torqued when taking them out. The plugs were all the same color and none were "oily". One thing I did discover, all plugs were MR43T (AC) but two plugs were actually shorter in length than the other 6. The two plugs were about 3/8" shorter where the electrode would be inside the cylinder. That piston did have a little dark tan residue on the top. I don't know what else. We are going to put it together this week after first wire brushing the valves and cleaning everything. Since we have the engine out of the boat we will change the starter/solenoid, oil pump and fuel pump. If anyone has any ideas please post them because we do need help figuring this one out. Thank you all, Bob |
Guy Gaspar
Senior Member
Username: guyjg
Post Number: 5400
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 12, 2009 - 11:24 am: |
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Install remote oil filter kit and remote oil drain kit. Makes self servicing much easier. |
Kghost
Senior Member
Username: kghost
Post Number: 1012
Registered: 07-2008
| | Posted on Monday, October 12, 2009 - 12:53 pm: |
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If you had 2 plugs that were not in the cyclinder as far as the others I would say you had a problem.
I suspect it would not fire correctly at some rpm range. it may work but not all the time as well as the others. I find this hard to understand if they are all the same part number.
Buy new plugs and you can use r43T from a auto store and save some $$$
Gap is .035
Lightly Oil the head bolt threads before installing, |
Bob Griest
Member
Username: hippie
Post Number: 65
Registered: 04-2009
| | Posted on Monday, October 12, 2009 - 05:35 pm: |
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I bought all 8 plugs at an Auto Zone (I mean auto store). All were packaged in the same wrapers and all were marked the same, MR43T. All were bought at the same time. I gaped them all at .035 and while installing them I never noticed a difference. Who would have thought of it? Thanks again, Bob
PS- Guy, how do these remote drain and oil filters work? Thanks, Bob |
Brian Brackett
Advanced Member
Username: kainon
Post Number: 988
Registered: 03-2009
| | Posted on Monday, October 12, 2009 - 07:29 pm: |
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remote drains as I beleive Guy is refering is a hose that has an adapter that screws into the oil pan drain, then the other end of the hose is pulled through the transom garboard plug, then the plug on the end that is removed to drain the oil..
the remote oil filter is a kit that has an adapter that screws into where the oil filter goes, and a couple hoses and another peice that can be placed in a more accessible place where the filter screws into that. |
Guy Gaspar
Senior Member
Username: guyjg
Post Number: 5402
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 12, 2009 - 08:00 pm: |
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Brian said it right. To me they are well worth the money spent. The filter on my 4.3L is mounted on the front of the port exhaust manifold. |
Ricardo E.
Advanced Member
Username: ricardomarine_vp
Post Number: 672
Registered: 03-2009
| | Posted on Monday, October 12, 2009 - 11:36 pm: |
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Quote: Any suggestions please post them. Thank you all, Bob
Bob, I do Volvo Penta, and just stuck my head in over here on the MC side.
Just a thought if all else was eliminated:
The odd spark plugs certainly did not help any.
Not taking a compression test does not help any either.
Having an ignition curve to show us would have been helpful.
But you're past that now.
I know that you mentioned that you checked to see what your ignition was doing throughout the RPM range!
Did you do so with a digitally advancing timing light?
Did you map this out?
The reason that I ask is... is can be common to misinterpret the use of this type of timing light... or misuse the mode.
Many, even good mechanics, do not concern themselves past BASE timing on these engines. That is what got me to thinking about this.
They assume that the module is taking care of this! A new module may not mean anything if not working correctly.
IMO, it is far more accurate to use a standard ole strobe light on these and see in Real Time/Real Degrees, just what the ignition is doing outside of BASE mode.
TAT is just too dang critical on a marine gasser.
GJack also mentioned this... he and I were thinking along the same lines, although we part ways with a TA of 38 degrees.
You do not want 38*. That is far too much TA.
It's a shame that you have torn this down only to find nothing abnormal.
I hope you find the problem. |
Bob Griest
Member
Username: hippie
Post Number: 66
Registered: 04-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 13, 2009 - 08:33 am: |
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Brian, Guy and Ricardo- Thank you for the ideas. A remote set sounds good. Ricardo, I originally set it with an old fashion light. The timming degree plate ?, is old and I couldn't see the numbers. Then a mechanic showed up with a new "does all" type light and said I was at 10*BTDC and it calls for 8BTDC. Not a biggie. He also checked the timing curve as I took the rpms up and said we were at 31 or 33*, I can't really remember. As I think about it the plugs were put in this summer long after this problem started. I just think of what would cause a drop in power like this!!Well, if you men think of anything else I can try please speak up. Thanking all of you, Bob |
Bob Griest
Member
Username: hippie
Post Number: 69
Registered: 04-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 27, 2009 - 02:20 pm: |
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We decided to replace the oil pump, fuel pump, solenoid/starter while we have the engine out of the boat. My partner noticed a very small amount of discolorization on the engine block at the bottom of a head gasket while cleaning them up. We are thinking the entire head on that side was loose and the water leaked down to the bottom of the gasket and gave it a light brown rust color. This would account for a lack of power (low compression on these 4 cylinders). We looked at the crank and everything there is exceptionally clean also but when we drained the oil it was very black and I didn't hardly run the boat this year. I'm thinking since the head was not on tight if exhaust could have caused the black appearance of the oil?
One question though, did they put plastic blue colored water drain plugs (the kind you can turn with your fingers) in a 1987 vintage block? I did not think so, so apparently somebody overhauled this engine prior to me. Thanks men, Bob |
Bob Griest
Member
Username: hippie
Post Number: 72
Registered: 04-2009
| | Posted on Friday, November 06, 2009 - 12:26 pm: |
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Well we put the engine together. We chased all bolts and threaded holes with a die. Used new head bolts, gaskets, etc. Everything got "anti-seize" compound. Cleaned everything to where it was spotless with "Berrymans" cleaner. Put 5 coats of paint on entire engine. The only new thing we did that was unknown to me- we primed the hydraulic lifters before adjusting the valves. It makes sense to do so. We also put it in the boat and had a difficult time aligning the 4 motor mounts. Anyway, we'll see how it works this Sat. Thanks again men, Bob |
Ricardo E.
Advanced Member
Username: ricardomarine_vp
Post Number: 746
Registered: 03-2009
| | Posted on Friday, November 06, 2009 - 01:44 pm: |
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Bob, if there is a "Next Time"...... (or when there is a next time)......., try leaving the cam followers (lifters) un-primed until after you get them set using the 8 stop "static" method!
You go right down the firing order setting each pair for each cylinder @ TDC C/S as you go.
This method is much accurate as you can watch as each plunger moves within the body to the tune of it's .080" to .100" travel!
You'll often find that you will not need to go back through them dynamically.
Once set, then prime your oil system as you rotate the crankshaft assembly a minimum of 8 or more cycles.
Sounds like you are getting close to a test run!
. |
Bob Griest
Member
Username: hippie
Post Number: 73
Registered: 04-2009
| | Posted on Saturday, November 07, 2009 - 08:10 pm: |
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I do need a little help. Does anyone know of a diagram that shows where all the raw water hoses go? I forget where some go. Mercruiser schmatics shows a portion but I need to see in relation to the engine itself. Many thanks, Bob |
Ricardo E.
Advanced Member
Username: ricardomarine_vp
Post Number: 755
Registered: 03-2009
| | Posted on Saturday, November 07, 2009 - 08:17 pm: |
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Bob, It would help to have more info: Year/model/closed cooling system or raw water cooling, old school log mans or centerise mans, etc???? |
Bob Griest
Member
Username: hippie
Post Number: 74
Registered: 04-2009
| | Posted on Saturday, November 07, 2009 - 08:30 pm: |
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Ricardo, It's a 1987 mercruiser 350 CID rated at 260 hp. The main thing is on the thermostat housing. Mine is raw water setup with 6 hoses off the thermo housing. Do the 2 hoses coming from the outlets which have the balls go to the risers? and then the 2 hoses from what looks like steer horns go to the 90* fitting at the bottom of the exhaust manifolds OR are they vice versa? Thank you, Bob |
Don foster
New member
Username: boats4fun
Post Number: 1
Registered: 11-2009
| | Posted on Saturday, November 07, 2009 - 10:20 pm: |
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Bob, is this what you need? |
Kghost
Senior Member
Username: kghost
Post Number: 1069
Registered: 07-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, November 08, 2009 - 07:00 am: |
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Bob,
The two upper hoses (1 inch or so diameter) go to the elbow/risers. The poppet balls are there to restrict water flow based on pressure. The newer type thermostat housings have a "fixed" orrifice.
The two lower(1 inch or so diameter)go to the bottom of the manifolds. These supply full water after the thermostast opens. some is bypassed thru a small bypass hole in the housing.
If hooked up in reverse the outcomming water would be very steamy, seen that several times. before. |
Bob Griest
Member
Username: hippie
Post Number: 75
Registered: 04-2009
| | Posted on Sunday, November 08, 2009 - 10:18 am: |
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Don, that is exactly what I need! Thank you. Kghost, I understand your explanation completely and it makes sense. Again, Thank both of you, Bob |
Bob Griest
Member
Username: hippie
Post Number: 77
Registered: 04-2009
| | Posted on Thursday, November 19, 2009 - 05:51 pm: |
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I do need a little advice. We have the engine together and installed in my boat. However, when I turn the key on to crank the engine I get a noise from the starter solenoid and the engine does not crank. The 50 amp. circuit breaker doesn't seem to be working. (you cannot push the red buttom in). My assumption is the circuit is stuck open causing the engine not to crank. Is this a plausible solution that the circuit breaker is bad? Thank you, Bob |
Ricardo E.
Advanced Member
Username: ricardomarine_vp
Post Number: 778
Registered: 03-2009
| | Posted on Thursday, November 19, 2009 - 06:31 pm: |
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Bob, What is your "at rest" battery voltage? (not immediately after a charge)
Also, check your ground cable as well as any positive battery cables (connections for corrosion and tightness).
The red button circuit breaker is working (continuity) if you have power at the helm. From what you describe (the clicking) you do have power there!
If not a cable issue, then you may have a starter motor issue or low voltage..... or ALL. |
Bt Doctur
Senior Member
Username: bt_doctur
Post Number: 1231
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 19, 2009 - 06:40 pm: |
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Is the drive off?
Does the motor turn by hand?
Motor assembled properly? |
Jeff Rudd
Member
Username: rudder
Post Number: 13
Registered: 03-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, November 19, 2009 - 10:33 pm: |
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Bob,
I'm responding a little late, but I too had the different length spark plugs issue....here is what I posted back in late May, after I contacted AC Delco...
Jeff
Posted on Thursday, May 28, 2009 - 11:46 am:
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Thought I would share what I heard back from ACDelco on the different sizes of MR43T plugs..
"We appreciate your email with regards to ACDelco spark plugs part number MR43T. Part numbers 5613438 (ACDelco) and 19157985 (GM) both reference back to MR43T.
The MR43T plugs underwent a design change. They are now longer, which should not be a problem as long as they are not actually making contact with anything. The plugs were redesigned to provide consistent resistor performance and "fantastic" flashover protection |
Bob Griest
Member
Username: hippie
Post Number: 80
Registered: 04-2009
| | Posted on Friday, November 20, 2009 - 12:37 pm: |
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The batteries are brand new, never even started the motor with them. They show 12.5. No, the outdrive is not off due to the boat being in water. I am pulling it next week but will need directions on aligning the coupler. Yes, the motor turns by hand, we did a complete rebuild on it. The starter motor was never used, it and the solenoid are brand new. As for the red button circuit breaker and the neutral switch beside it, both are gone. They are just something else to go wrong when out on the water. It is now wired direct. But what concerns me is this coupler alignment. Never heard of doing this. We pulled the engine and put it back in without doing anything to the outdrive. We slide the engine with the spline attached back into the outdrive and bolted the motor mounts down. The 3/4" bolts in the rear lined up good as did the front mounts but the lags on one side were striped so we epoxied them in. Please expound more on "lining up the coupler". Thank you, Bob |
gl115
Member
Username: gl115
Post Number: 38
Registered: 11-2009
| | Posted on Friday, November 20, 2009 - 01:16 pm: |
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hope this helps and applies to you engine, page 49 or 50 I think is engine alignment procedures.
http://www.boatfix.com/merc/Install/gas/86017211.pdf |
Ricardo E.
Advanced Member
Username: ricardomarine_vp
Post Number: 781
Registered: 03-2009
| | Posted on Friday, November 20, 2009 - 04:13 pm: |
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Bob, Mercruiser has been requiring this "drive coupler/engine alignment" since day one!
Question: Did you leave the Flywheel Cover attached to the transom unit......, or did you remove it with the engine????? (the rear engine mounts are part of this flywheel cover)
If disconnected and removed with the engine, there is a concern for the appropriate sequence of parts at the junction between the F/C "rear engine mount" and the Inner Transom Plate portion of same! See page # 42!
Doubt that this alone would prevent the engine from turning over, but you must have the sequence correct.
Now that it is installed, does the engine STILL turn over if you were to move it by hand?
. |
Bt Doctur
Senior Member
Username: bt_doctur
Post Number: 1233
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Friday, November 20, 2009 - 04:53 pm: |
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Try this and get back with the results
Battery fully charged, cable ends clean and tight.
Short the small lug with the yel/red stripe to the main battery lug, starter motor turns or it dosent.
Short the main battery lug on the stater to ground, should get a fat spark.If not check battery and cables.
No: battery, cables, cable ends, or starter are bad. |
Ricardo E.
Advanced Member
Username: ricardomarine_vp
Post Number: 782
Registered: 03-2009
| | Posted on Friday, November 20, 2009 - 08:11 pm: |
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I could never, in good consciousness, recommend to anyone that taking a POS cable to GRND (thus creating a "Fat Spark") even in an "open" engine bay (hatch open) would be a good or safe idea! 
The industry offers us "Ignition Protected" devices of all sorts for our In-Board Marine Engine Bays to eliminate potentially dangerous sparks! 
I'd rather see Bob remove the starter and have it tested on a bench with a proper load test!
BTW, Bob, if the starter should turn out to be bad, consider one of the HTGR or PMGR units. They will kick A$$ over the OEM motors.
They are generally much less expensive as well.
. |
Bob Griest
Member
Username: hippie
Post Number: 85
Registered: 04-2009
| | Posted on Saturday, November 21, 2009 - 09:52 am: |
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Ricardo, We removed my engine with the flywheel, housing and another peice that was attached by 3 bolts in a triangular pattern. All 3 pieces were still attached as they were in the boat. We did not remove the fly wheel because that is where we bolted to the engine stand. The housing and other part we did remove. The starter/solenoid is brand spanking new (not to say I didn't get a bad one from the factory).
BT, we have plenty of current to the starter. My helper traced everything back to this 50 amp circuit breaker (red button that doesn't push in). He was going to remove it the other day along with a nuetral safety switch and wire them direct. Hope this info helps, Bob |
Ricardo E.
Advanced Member
Username: ricardomarine_vp
Post Number: 789
Registered: 03-2009
| | Posted on Saturday, November 21, 2009 - 10:21 am: |
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Bob, the red button will not push IN if it does not require "re-setting". However, this may not indicate that it is OK!
Also, (and if no one has messed with the wiring) the circuit to the instrument panel is protected via this red button circuit breaker.
IOW's, if it was either "tripped" or "Bad", you would likely not have power to your ignition switch at the helm! Hence, no power at all to trigger the starter motor solenoid!
(the starter motor itself will still have power to the main terminal as this circuit is NOT fused!)
The triangular mounted part (as you describe it) will likely be your drive coupler.
What I was referring to earlier, was the connection between the "Flywheel Cover" (bell housing in the automotive world) and the proper sequence of installation parts right at where it connects to the "inner transom plate" (as shown in that drawing on page 42).
If these parts are not installed correctly, you will have misalignment that will not be correctable via the FWD engine mount adjustments!
Now, I have never misaligned one, so I cannot tell you if this "misalignment" is enough to prevent an engine from turning over via the starter motor. It is certainly worth exploring!
. |
Bob Griest
Member
Username: hippie
Post Number: 86
Registered: 04-2009
| | Posted on Saturday, November 21, 2009 - 02:29 pm: |
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Ricardo, Our front mounts only had one nut on each mount. In the diagrams it shows two nuts on each so you can adjust the height. We thought they simply held the motor in place as a car motor mount does. Anyway, I tightened down on the rear 3/4" bolts and the front mounts. I agree that it could be binding up and causing it not to crank. Makes perfect sense to me. I must say that I caused this problem not the motor. Now, how do I fix the problem and get it aligned properly? Thank you, Bob |
Ricardo E.
Advanced Member
Username: ricardomarine_vp
Post Number: 791
Registered: 03-2009
| | Posted on Saturday, November 21, 2009 - 03:10 pm: |
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Bob, you have a possible two part scenario here.
** 1) being the typical Mercruiser routine engine alignment whereby a special alignment shaft is used to check the alignment of the "Drive Coupler" internal splines. However, you cannot perform this unless you know that the following is OK.
** 2) being where the rear engine mounts attach to the "Inner Transom Plate".... of which is actually of little concern IF the engine had been connected correctly!
THIS connection is a "Pre-Determined" factory setting! There is NO ADJUSTMENT to correct this other than removing the engine.
Again, see page 42!
So....... I'd be looking at that drawing on page 42, and try your best to see if this has been assembled correctly.
And just to be clear, I did not say that this could prevent the engine from turning over..... I only speculated that it may contribute as I have not had this occur to me.
. |
Bob Griest
Member
Username: hippie
Post Number: 87
Registered: 04-2009
| | Posted on Saturday, November 21, 2009 - 03:50 pm: |
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Ricardo, On page 42 dealing with the rear bolts, mine did not have E-the spacer,F-the fiber washer, nor G-the double-wound lockwasher when we took it apart. Therefore, we did not put those on when installing the engine. They are missing. I will purchase some on Monday and try to install them on Tues. I will post my results. Thank you, Bob |
Ricardo E.
Advanced Member
Username: ricardomarine_vp
Post Number: 792
Registered: 03-2009
| | Posted on Saturday, November 21, 2009 - 03:58 pm: |
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Bob, M/C has had many part number and model number changes over the years.
I am not savvy enough to be up on all of the changes, so just make sure that you have your year/model number with you.
. |
Guy Gaspar
Senior Member
Username: guyjg
Post Number: 5493
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, November 21, 2009 - 07:33 pm: |
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I think you need to pull the OD, put the missing rear mount parts and double nuts on the front mounts. Align the engine and then install the OD. Beg or borrow an alignment tool. |
