Cylinder # 1 no spark on and off

Author Message   Eric Deibert Member Username: partybarge21 Post Number: 39 Registered: 11-2008 Posted on Wednesday, July 08, 2009 - 10:46 pm:    I will try to keep this as short as I can but still give you all the detail need. Evinrude 1981 E140TRLCIM I have been having an issue all year since I put the boat back in the water. Cylinder # 1 will not have spark sometimes. I have found that when cold it will not fire but once the engine is hot it will kick on and off until it eventually stays on. It will usually run fine until it cools down again. I am not riding the engine hard when the cylinder is not firing. I don't want to kill the good cylinders. It is getting fuel so it is not a dry cylinder situation. Here is the background of what I have done so far over the past 2 months. I have spent hours on hours reading this site checking archives and measuring and comparing readings on the electrical system. Special Tools used: Fluke multimeter, Timing light, Fluke Scopemeter (for DVA readings), etc 1. Checked all resistance measurements by the book (CD ignition troubleshooting), all good. Did not have a DVA meter so did not check voltage (forgot about my O-scope for peak readings). Also all cylinders have 100 psi compression +/- 4 psi or so. 2. Swapped power packs from 1/3 to 2/4. Issue moved to 4, great replaced power pack with new and ran good that day. Next time out no spark on # 1 until the engine heated up. 3. Read more on this site about plug wires. Found out another person with a similar engine bought Sierra plug wires that had about 650 ohms across them. They were told that could fry there power packs. I just bought those same plug wire sets this spring (before issues). Ah, I though. There is my problem. But crap, I smoked another power pack?$?$? 4. Well what happened happened ($$). But not again. I found a local outboard repair mechanic who has all kinds of parts. Got a set of near new OEM plug wires with verified 0 resistance. Got another power pack. Put parts on and the engine ran great that day. Next timeout no spark in # 1. 5. Getting aggravated now, Swapped coil packs (and primary wires) between 1 and 3. Fires up on all cylinders. Shut down loaded boat started back and cylinder # 1 would not fire. Swapped plug wires, and plugs. Nothing. Also wire brushed block where grounds were connected. 6. Pulled flywheel off and removed stator, timer base, and wiring harness. Inspected for melted, frayed, or damaged parts. All looks good. Reassembled and # 1 still not firing (until heated up). 7. Remembered my O-scope can measure peak values like a DVA I took some measurements. With # 1 not firing. Timer base signal all cylinders, Meter was setup wrong (didn't know at the time) values bad. Need to recheck next time. With # 1 firing. 4.65V to 4.75V on all 4 leads (blue & green to pwr pk) to white at idle. Stater output. 1 & 3 voltage with 1 not firing (A=1, B=3) 2 & 4 voltage with 1 not firing (A=2, B=4) Voltage same when #1 was firing. Power pack output to 1 and 3 (coil primary) This is the primary with # 1 (B=1, A=3)) not firing. This is the primary with # 1 firing. Power pack output to 2 and 4 (coil primary) Sorry for the long thread.... Now without the timer base info when # 1 was not firing I do not know if there was no powerpack output because it was not being told to fire OR was it being told to and it is another powerpack issue. If a power pack issue then why? I can't change parts without correcting the root cause. I will get that other measurement but any thoughts before I head back to the lake? Thanks in advance!   Morten Ringvold Senior Member Username: haffiman37 Post Number: 3913 Registered: 04-2006 Posted on Wednesday, July 08, 2009 - 11:29 pm:    The question might be if the ignition system in fact is firing (You have spark) but You have no combustion in the cylinder? I think You should start with a compression test.   Eric Deibert Member Username: partybarge21 Post Number: 40 Registered: 11-2008 Posted on Thursday, July 09, 2009 - 06:41 am:    Thread was so long you may have missed this. "Also all cylinders have 100 psi compression +/- 4 psi or so." Powerhead was just rebuilt over the winter so compression was one of the first things I checked. I can actually pull the plug out of the cylinder and clamp it to the bare block and it will not spark on the plug. Tried with multiple known good plugs, coils, and wires also. Same test produces a good spark when the engine is hot. I also have left the timing light on plug wire 1 and it would not flash when it is not firing. It will start flashing if the cylinder starts to fire on and off when getting hot. Thanks.   Morten Ringvold Senior Member Username: haffiman37 Post Number: 3915 Registered: 04-2006 Posted on Thursday, July 09, 2009 - 07:01 am:    Double check the rubber plugs that connects between trigger and power-pack, particularly the one on the trigger end. Push out the pins and check the wire attachments to the pins, or if possible, cut off 1 cm and install new pins and new rubber connector. It all looks like a thermo-electric problem, in the way that 'something' expands after being heated up and creates the contact needed. Are the measurements above made on 'open loads' or with all components connected?   Eric Deibert Member Username: partybarge21 Post Number: 41 Registered: 11-2008 Posted on Thursday, July 09, 2009 - 08:00 am:    Measurements taken with all components connected and engine running. I took my pin extractor tool out last weekend and pulled the pins on the stator and coil plugs but not the timer base plug. I can do that. I have inspected that plug many times (from the outside). The powerpack side of that plug is new because of the new power pack. That is a good point since I am only dealing with <5v and it does not take much to break the circuit. Do the voltages above look in line?   Morten Ringvold Senior Member Username: haffiman37 Post Number: 3916 Registered: 04-2006 Posted on Thursday, July 09, 2009 - 08:12 am:    Voltage above looks ok. I just could not find trigger/sensor input to PP.   Eric Deibert Member Username: partybarge21 Post Number: 42 Registered: 11-2008 Posted on Thursday, July 09, 2009 - 08:28 am:    When cylinder 1 was working the trigger voltage was between 4.65V and 4.75V on all 4 timer base wires. I need to recheck when it is not firing and I will post values.   Andrew Mackhrandilal Advanced Member Username: nymack66 Post Number: 147 Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Thursday, July 09, 2009 - 10:03 am:    My only thought I have at this point is LUBE all your electrical connectors plugs,coils,trigger & stator..   Eric Deibert Member Username: partybarge21 Post Number: 43 Registered: 11-2008 Posted on Wednesday, July 15, 2009 - 04:09 pm:    I finally got out to make more measurements on the trigger signal with Cyinder # 1 not firing. Trigger voltage on cylinders 1 and 3 (A=3, B=1) at 4000 rpm (warm up lever up). Cylinder 1 not firing. Primary coil voltage on cylinders 1 and 3 (A=3, B=1) at 4000 rpm (warm up lever up). Cylinder 1 not firing. I also measured 2/4 pack and @ 4k the trigger was around 13v and the primary coil voltage was around 300v. Same as cylinder # 3. Here is where I need the help. According to the CDI documentation for the powerpacks I only need 0.5v to trigger the powerpack to fire. With that said I would think I am getting enough signal for the powerpack to fire (2.03v). BUT Logically I say "which one of these is not like the other one?" and it looks like the timer base is not putting out the correct trigger voltage. I had the whole wiring harness apart so I don't think the voltage is being pulled down by a short (external of the timer base). So before I spend big $ for a timer base what do the experts say? Thanks in advance!   jwbmarine Senior Member Username: jwbmarine Post Number: 4672 Registered: 11-2005 Posted on Wednesday, July 15, 2009 - 08:06 pm:    that,is some VERY ,impressive stats u have,....however,...u need to compare ur readings,to the FACTORY service manual...i,for one,..cant rem every ign spec,for every eng,fr 2-300....but,u obviously,know ur way around electronics..   jwbmarine Senior Member Username: jwbmarine Post Number: 4673 Registered: 11-2005 Posted on Wednesday, July 15, 2009 - 08:09 pm:    1981--140,..is a relatively,simple ign....coils cracked...repl...not ALL,..but most ign prob,on a pwr pked ign....is just that,..bad pack..and w/out looking it up,..ur readings,..appear,...ok..to me.   Joe Reeves Senior Member Username: joereeves Post Number: 7678 Registered: 02-2001 Posted on Wednesday, July 15, 2009 - 08:12 pm:    Having good spark with a cold engine and not with a hot engine indicates that either the stator is melting down (I know you've looked at that), a intermitent short exists at some point in the engine or instrument wiring harness, OR the ignition switch has a intermitent short. If you've already performed this test, I've overlooked it. Hot, warmed up engine with poor or no spark.... remove all spark plugs, disconnect the large RED plug at the engine. Crank engine via a jumper from the battery cable terminal of the starter solenoid to the small 3/8" nut terminal that energizes it. If you now have spark, the ignition switch is usually at fault. Test ignition switch = RED electrical plug at engine now reconnected. disconnect black/yellow wire from ignition switch. Crank and observe spark. If no spark with black/yellow wire connected BUT plenty of spark with it disconnected, replace ignition switch. Thousands of parts in my remaining stock. Not able to list them all. Let me know what you need and I'll look it up for you. Visit my eBay store at: http://stores.ebay.com/Evinrude-Johnson-Outboard-Parts-etc?refid=store   Eric Deibert Member Username: partybarge21 Post Number: 44 Registered: 11-2008 Posted on Wednesday, July 15, 2009 - 08:37 pm:    JW I had the same train of thought a few weeks ago. But if it is the power pack causing the issue then what would burn up 3 power packs in 4 weeks? If the one on now is bad that is my 3rd. I have not found the cause yet and do not want to spend more $$ on one to burn up next week. I have no idea what else to look for. As you said, it has a simple ignition system but I am overlooking something. Joe, The temperature thing is actually opposite of what you stated. I have no spark when it is cold but spark when the engine is good and hot. I will try the ignition switch troubleshooting. If it had a bad sitch would it only kill one cylinder or all cylinders? I only have the issue on cylinder # 1. Thanks, Eric   jwbmarine Senior Member Username: jwbmarine Post Number: 4675 Registered: 11-2005 Posted on Wednesday, July 15, 2009 - 08:43 pm:    i tell u what will burn pax,....is VOLTAGE,..on the blk/yell kill wire...ANY,..voltage.....i have actually verified,...this fact,...i wont say,who taught me this,...he knows,..who he is,....but,like i said,..i have seen this,..and VERIFIED,this fact,in the last 2-3 yrs...   Andrew Mackhrandilal Advanced Member Username: nymack66 Post Number: 151 Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Wednesday, July 15, 2009 - 09:38 pm:    Bad trigger..   Morten Ringvold Senior Member Username: haffiman37 Post Number: 3946 Registered: 04-2006 Posted on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 12:52 am:    Let m try to add it up to see if I got it correct: -You have charge voltage at any time from the stator to the power pack, that should eliminate the stator. - You have primary voltage to all coils WHEN the cyl's are firing. That may eliminate the coils, but not totally. If coil 1 grounds slightly when cold and as the measurements are done with components hooked up, it might explain the voltage drop in primary. Have the coils been swapped to eliminate this? - When 1 is firing You have needed voltage on timer signal (above 4,5 V), when not firing it is low. Again a question of loaded or unloaded circuit? If the voltage, at idle/cranking is above 4,5 Volts UNLOADED, the problem might be in the power pack circuit which even include the stop-circuit. Black/yellow should be disconnected to eliminate the stop circuit. If timer signal is low even with PP disconnected (open circuit), the problem is in the timer base. I don't have any books, it all goes by memory, so please excuse any errors with reference to values.   Eric Deibert Member Username: partybarge21 Post Number: 45 Registered: 11-2008 Posted on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 04:01 pm:    -You have charge voltage at any time from the stator to the power pack, that should eliminate the stator. Correct - You have primary voltage to all coils WHEN the cyl's are firing. That may eliminate the coils, but not totally. If coil 1 grounds slightly when cold and as the measurements are done with components hooked up, it might explain the voltage drop in primary. Have the coils been swapped to eliminate this? Coils have been swapped - When 1 is firing You have needed voltage on timer signal (above 4,5 V), when not firing it is low. Again a question of loaded or unloaded circuit? If the voltage, at idle/cranking is above 4,5 Volts UNLOADED, the problem might be in the power pack circuit which even include the stop-circuit. Black/yellow should be disconnected to eliminate the stop circuit. If timer signal is low even with PP disconnected (open circuit), the problem is in the timer base. I don't have any books, it all goes by memory, so please excuse any errors with reference to values. As you and JW recommend I will try to disconnect the kill wire. What are the chances that the power pack is not smoked? I would hate to have to buy a new one to fry it and find out that is not it (while testing or if issue kill wire is found). Here are the trigger values. I am above 0.5 even on idle but much lower that the rest. I will try to disconnect the trigger wire and read it with no load. I have not done that because I wanted to be sure that would not hurt the timer coil doing that.   Joe Reeves Senior Member Username: joereeves Post Number: 7685 Registered: 02-2001 Posted on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 04:11 pm:    When you say "Coils have been swapped"..... Have you actually changed the physical location of that #1 coil to say the #3 coil location, and the #3 coil to the #1 location OR..... Have you simply changed the primary wires around, leaving the coils where they originally wre.   Eric Deibert Member Username: partybarge21 Post Number: 46 Registered: 11-2008 Posted on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 04:31 pm:    Took my pin extraction tool out and pushed the pins out of the boot connector so I could physically swap the coils between 1 and 3. Put the pins back in the connector where they need to be to fire the correct cylinders.   Joe Reeves Senior Member Username: joereeves Post Number: 7686 Registered: 02-2001 Posted on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 04:46 pm:    Too bad you don't have a spare powerpack to try.   Morten Ringvold Senior Member Username: haffiman37 Post Number: 3947 Registered: 04-2006 Posted on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 09:08 pm:    As said I do not have any manuals. Could someone please check the trigger voltage 0,5?? I think to remember the ORIGINAL OMC manual states a higher value? The same goes for the stator (charge) value if not mistaken.

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