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Winterizing M440

N

noelct

Regular Contributor
Normally I drain all raw water from pump, exchanger, coolers, and maifolds when winterizing. This season I'm contemplating to instead run a properly mixed antifreeze solution through raw water system.

Are there any negatives to doing this? Also, my guess is that 4 gallons of the mixture would do it. Is this estimation good or should I plan on 6 gallons?

Any comments or suggstions are welcomed.

Thanks, Noel.
 
Four gallons sounds to me like it would be enough but if you got six and had some left over, no harm done and you would save it for next time. Better safe than sorry. The only negative I see is an environmental one. Unless you recover it all in the spring, it's going to end up somewhere it probably shouldn't. You could go the non-tox route and not worry so much about what little bit you don't recover.
 
I appoligize for double post. Old web site had near instant posting and since I didn't see post come up I though that I did something wrong while posting.

,Thanks for feedback.

,Noel.
 
I realize this is an old thread but I"m hoping by posting that I'll bring it back to the top and get some answers. If I pull the intake hose off and run antifreeze through my 440 (century Arabian) sitting in the driveway with engine running, will the antifreeze circulate everywhere needed IF the temp doesn't come up and the thermostat doesn't open?
 
Yes, it is a very old thread, but since winter is upon us..........



It is physically impossible for just plain air to freeze, expand, and ruin our expensive cast iron parts.
This is why most all OEM service manuals will suggest to drain down your system, and leave the drains open for the duration.

The amount of rust and/or corrosion that could occur during the winter lay-up, is nothing compared to what occurs during the normal season.
But if you're after that "feel good" feeling of rust and corrosion prevention, at least drain first, and then drain again afterwards.

If you are confident that the first draining emptied all sea water, I suppose that you could leave the antifreeze in for the winter.

Your call!


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Just did my 360s a month ago, using a method that works for me (and is less messy):

1. Remove all SIX drain plugs per motor. (I made them all the same so a 9/16 socket fits.)

2. Poke out the holes if water doesn't flow right out. When done, replace the plugs.

3. Close the seacocks and add FOUR gallons of Pink Stuff with the mtoor idling. The t-stat does NOT have to be open, for coolant is bypassed around it.

4. Pull the coil wire from the distributor, then spray fogging oil into the carb while cranking it over for 15 seconds.

Done.

Jeff
 
fastjeff said:
4. Pull the coil wire from the distributor, then spray fogging oil into the carb while cranking it over for 15 seconds.
Click to expand...
Jeff, are you not concerned by pulling the high tension lead from the distributor while running?
IMO, it's best to disable the power to the ignition system, rather than creating a scenario where the high tension voltage has no place to collapse, thus protecting the ignition coil.

Also, fogging while cranking only, IMO, is not nearly as effective as if doing dynamically.
I make fogging last on my list, and do so while at approx 1,200 rpm, and have a helper cut the ignition while I continue to fog.
Cutting the ignition prevents the combustion of the fogging solution.

The other trick that is seldom discussed, is the issue with V engine dual plane intake manifolds.
If we miss one plane, or if we do not spray equally into each plane, we may miss 4 cylinders.

Just say'n!

.
 
No biggee. Just ground the end of the wire on the manifold.

Spray equally in each of the front two barrels and the fogging oil will go where it belongs.

Jeff
 
RicardoMarine said:
Also, fogging while cranking only, IMO, is not nearly as effective as if doing dynamically.
I make fogging last on my list, and do so while at approx 1,200 rpm, and have a helper cut the ignition while I continue to fog.
Cutting the ignition prevents the combustion of the fogging solution. .
Click to expand...

When I was in the business I always used this method: , After oil is changed and any other maintenance is performed (plugs/wires) I use ATF squirted into carb with engine running around 1200 rpm for about 5-10 seconds then close carb flap to stall. This smokes greatly but is effective. Then while engine is still hot, I spray with CRC to coat all iron and bag engine until next season.
 
One of the reason I fog my engines this way is that, after running the Pink Stuff thru, I DON'T want to run the motors (to prevent impeller damage). If I had a helper who could spray fogging oil into the carb while I'm pouring the last gallon of Pink Stuff into the strainer, then...

I think it's far better to do it with the ignition off in any case since fogging oil burns readily. I've fogged outboards (that were thoroughly out of gas) and had them fire right up by pulling the cord. Burnt fogging oil does NOTHING to protect a cylinder bore and rings.

Jeff
 
Air is the best anti freeze. The only engines I have ever seen cracked up are ones where someone tried tofill them with anti freeze.
 
fastjeff said:
Uh-huh. Air plus moisture plus bare cast iron = RUST!

Jeff
Click to expand...
Jeff, yes, is does equal rust...... however, the amount of rust or corrosion that could accumulate during the off season is paled by comparison to that which occurs during the boating season.

Depending on how the anti-freeze is introduced, there can be some issues regarding dilution.
For the Raw Water cooled engine, if we drain the block first, re-install the drain plugs, and pour the anti-freeze in through the thermostat port, we stand a much better chance of no dilution. In fact, this actually works very well.

For a single impeller raw water cooled engine, there's an issue with the T-stat housing and by-pass porting when one of these Camco Winterizing kits are used.... or a home made version of this!
The user sees anti-freeze exit the exhaust, and thinks that all is OK due to his misunderstanding of his cooling system.

This is the I/O version.... there's a I/B version also.

Not sure how this would work with a dual pocket sea water pump.

For an engine with a Closed Cooling system and a raw water exhaust system, there does not seem to be an issue.
Given 3 or 4 gallons, what goes in is what comes out, and is fairly non-diluted.

I've discussed this numerous times.
I've also heard from people who have checked afterwards, and have found diluted anti-freeze in their engine blocks.
It's all about the raw water cooled engine T-stat housing and the diversion or by-pass within the T-stat housing.
My advice would be to NOT use this method!
Or completely drain first if you're hell bent on doing this.

Otherwise, you can rest assured that just plain old air will never freeze and expand causing expansion damage.

The minor amount of rust scale within the cooling jackets is nothing compared to a cracked engine block.




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..."the amount of rust or corrosion that could accumulate during the off season is paled by comparison to that which occurs during the boating season."

Not in fresh water!

Jeff
 
fastjeff said:
..."the amount of rust or corrosion that could accumulate during the off season is paled by comparison to that which occurs during the boating season."

Not in fresh water!
Click to expand...
Jeff, I think that it would be proportionate to what would normally occur.

If in salt water, and when drained for the winter, an empty block will continue to rust some to the tune of what a film of salt water will cause.

If in river/lake water, and when drained for the winter, an empty block will also continue to rust some, yada yada yada, and so on.

In either scenario, there's no way that this could be compared to the rust scale that occurs during normal season usage, IMO.


If given a choice between improperly installed anti-freeze (with the risk of dilution that may cause freeze expansion damage), I'll take the empty block scenario and will live with the small amount of rust scale.

Now... if installing the anti-freeze and then draining again afterwards........ I have no point to argue.


Like suggested... drain first... add anti-freeze.
Or... if the kit is used to pull anti-freeze up and through the sea water pump system, drain first... add anti-freeze..... drain again afterwards.
This offers the protective properties of the anti-freeze, and yet leaves no margin of error for accidental dilution.


BTW, this is not speculation.
I've pesonally read more than one story by people who have used the kits, or who have done similar, only to learn in the spring time that they have a cracked engine block.
Had they simply drained the block...... they'd have been spared this.

Here's the most recent story posted on the BOC January 1st.

Rick, I wanted to satisfy my curiosity about dropping the outdrive into a tub full of antifreeze, and running it that way. Well, while it was an interesting experiment, after all was said and done, it wasn't worth the trouble and expense (18 gallons of antifreeze). So then I hooked up my handy dandy flush kit. You know the one that everyone says not to use. Experiment part two was to see how well it flushed the engine. So after hooking it up, getting the engine up to temp, and letting at least 3 gallons on antifreeze run through, while fogging the engine, I stopped the engine and opened the drain plugs on both sides of the block. Guess what came out? Nice clean clear water. No pink stuff. It was running slowly so once I ran a piece of wire hanger in the drain holes, they flowed quite nicely. After about 20 seconds the pink stuff started coming out.

.
 
Rusting requires three things: iron, water and AIR. If there's enough air going through the motor to facilitate rusting, then it would be overheating!

Jeff
 
fastjeff said:
1.. Rusting requires three things: iron, water and AIR.

2.. If there's enough air going through the motor to facilitate rusting, then it would be overheating!

Jeff
Click to expand...
1... No disagreement there!

2... I'm not sure that I'm following you on this one!



Jeff, just to be clear, I have no issues what-so-ever with using antifreeze for rust prevention and freeze protection.... IF... (key word being IF)... a person knows exactly how to avoid residual sea water dilution... and IF they plan to leave the antifreeze installed.

This is why I always suggest that if we're going to do this, that we completely drain everything first.... including probing the drain ports.


These silly winterizing kits are getting owners into trouble.
I don't know if you I/B guys are using these or not, and I don't know if these even work well for the Chrysler sea water pump arrangements.
Lots of the I/O guys are using these kits! And some of these guys will posting in the Spring time with cracked block issues.


As for just plain air...... it's proven that this works. If completely drained of all sea water, we'll never hear of a freeze cracked block.

As I've said, any rust scale that could possibly accumulate during lay up season (block empty, some residual sea water that is evaporating, and a fair amount of air), is not the issue that some believe it to be. Not when compared to what occurs during the boating season.


And of course, this is my opinion only.
I can't tell anyone how to winterize their engine...... It's up to them.



On a rather funny note... why are we discussing this in January? :)


.
 
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Actually it is OXYGEN that joins with the cast iron to form feo3 ( commonly knows as rust ) -----water has disolved oxygen in it and that is how the wee fishes live.
 
One other point you may want to consider is from what I was told by the Glenwood marine exhaust people is the 440 is a difficult animal to plumb because as he put it there like two 4 cylinders mated together. So maybe 'air' is a safer bet...


Jack
 
Just plain AIR is un-disputably the best scenario when the primary concern is freeze expansion damage prevention, and should take a first row seat over anything else.

Along with that, we can turn our focus to cylinder fogging, oil change, fuel stabilizing, and antifreeze protection within the cooling jackets if so inclined. Just make darn certain that during the process, it does not become accidentally diluted by residual engine block sea water.

Now ya get everything.... and your engine is happy! :D



.
 
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