Ok, don't bother with this post unless you want a laugh from how this reman shop guy goes back and forth between fuel problem and intake gasket problem, anything but his engine problem..... and how full o' chit everything he says is. I guess I really pissed him off at the end.
(this is an email thread, so gotta read from bottom up to make sense)
(Had to break into 2 posts for character limits of post - read all of this one before next post)
Jun 2, 2011 12:28:40 PM, usengine wrote:
The only way to know if you have a fuel or oil is to fix your intake manifold gasket. What I am telling you I have had engines returned for your same problem and its always the intake manifold fix that and let me know.
----- Original Message -----
From: jfarc
To: usengine
Sent: Thursday, June 2, 2011 9:03:01 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Warranty Claim on Engine # 69889 Warranty # 81743
Good, it finally sounds like we are both convinced this engine does not have a fuel problem, agreed?
Your assumption that the intake gasket has a leak causing oil to be sucked into the intake cavity resulting in the blue smoke at idle is what I've thought all along. Engine vacuum is greatest at idle, so it would be sucked in at that point more than at higher RPM. This makes sense. My only problem with this theory is I tried the following vacuum test suggested by several of the mechanics I have involved in this project:
Test for intake gasket leak:
Remove PCV Valve and valve cover breather from both valve covers
Plug both valve cover holes appropriately with duct tape
Attach Vacuum gauge to dip stick tube
Run engine in same manner that produces the most blue smoke.
If there is vacuum reading on the gauge, there is a breach in the intake gasket causing oil/air to be sucked into intake cavity and into the cyls to be burned.
If no vacuum, then there is no intake gasket leak.
This test makes total sense. The only problem is there was no vacuum when I performed this test. There was pressure coming out of the dip stick tube. The pressure would be normal with a good operating engine that has no intake gasket leak.
Now, so when I remove the intake manifold this weekend and by the chance that I don't see any breach anywhere along the intake manifold gasket and there is no oil residue found in any of the mating surfaces of the head coming from the intake manifold, where do I go from there? What can be visually inspected as far as the valves are concerned? What other tests do you recommend to find where this oil burning issue is being caused?
JohnF
Jun 2, 2011 11:07:52 AM, usengine wrote:
Like I said it sounds like your intake manifold gasket was not installed correctly because you have a oil leak and oil consumption. When the intake gasket fails you get vacuum under the intake drawing in oil. At this time you will have to replace your intake gasket and run your engine to restart breakin. This is why it smoke at idle once you remove the intake manifold you will see oil in the cylinder head where your leak is.
Charlie
----- Original Message -----
From: jfarc
To: usengine
Sent: Wednesday, June 1, 2011 8:06:52 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Warranty Claim on Engine # 69889 Warranty # 81743
Charlie,
Thank you for being patient with me on this. I've been quite frustrated with the problems I'm having let alone not having the use of this boat for over a full season so far since installing this engine.
To answer your questions in your last response:
"how much oil are you using that what counts."
In my first email dated July 26, 2010 (attached to this email thread below) I stated the following: "During the 3rd & 4th (most recent) fuel fillup, the oil consumption has been in the 3-5 hours per quart of oil."
What I also mentioned in the email on May 27, 2011 (also below), I determined that the clouds of blue oil smoke in the exhaust have been much more pronounced when the engine is idling or rev'd from idle after idling for several minutes You can see this in the videos that are link'd in the below May 27, 2011 email.. Most of the cruising I did during the 3rd & 4th fuel fillup from last year was at higher RPM when the oil was not being excessively burned, yet it still was an excessive amount to be lost.
Beginning this year I have only put 1.8 (one & eight/tenths) hours on the engine, but yet the engine has used more than 1 quart of oil. I attribute this higher rate of oil loss to the increased percentage of running of the engine at idle(more blue smoke), so I can determine what the oil burning problem is.
You also made the statement - "Blue smoke is fuel most think its black it is also but thats fuel not buring"
I also mentioned in an email below that I owned and operated an oil change service business for 11 years servicing tens of thousands of fleet & commercial vehs and I am pretty in tune with just about everything to do with motor oil. I have for the last 17 years been intimately involved in the new&used auto/truck dealership industry and have hundreds of dealerships as clients, so I am in a different one or multiple every day. I have run your statement by close to 35 (most were Ford & GM Certified Master mechanic) technicians and I could not find a single one that would agree with your statement above.
Here are various websites that also state what everyone else understands::
Blue smoke in exhaust is oil burning
Black smoke in exhaust is excess fuel/unburnt fuel
http://www.cartechhome.com/2008/02/blue-smoke-coming-out-of-exhaust-system.html
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?2294204-Blue-smoke-after-sitting&p=24797619&viewfull=1
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_can_cause_blue_grey_smoke_from_the_exhaust
http://www.gmtruckclub.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-44086.html
http://www.cartechhome.com/2008/05/black-smoke-coming-out-from-your.html
http://www.ask.com/questions-about/Black-Smoke-from-Exhaust
To reiterate, when this engine is billowing clouds of blue smoke, there is a strong odor of oil, not fuel. There has never been an odor of fuel anywhere - not in the smoke, not on the dipstick, not around the engine, anywhere.
Another statement you made: "Sounds like your intake manifold is installed wrong and now its pulling oil from under the intake"
From what facts do you logically make this statement? What leads you to believe that this must be the reason for the engine to be burning excessive oil and exhibit blue, oil smelling smoke in the exhaust? Does this also mean you have now changed your long standing position you actually still had in the beginning lines of your last email that, "I know your having a fuel problem we seen this before"
Because I also asked all those mechanics and many more on online forums that intimately know what the symptoms are of this particular engine and every single one tells me there is either bad cyl rings or there is an oil leak in the valve train area/leaking valve seal. Some of the other suggestions were improperly torqued head bolts, improperly magnafluxed/cracked cyl head or not true head or engine cyl surface or even incorrect/bad cyl head gasket used.
As I stated, the torque on each and every intake manifold bolt has been double and triple verified by 3 different verified torque wrenches by 3 diff people and has been at spec each time. This was done last year and again this year just last week on Wed when I made the videos of the blue smoke. The intake manifold gaskets & bolts were first installed following all proper installation procedures including the 3 step torque and bolt tightening pattern sequence.
Frankly, I am hesitant in going through all the work necessary to uninstall and ship this engine back to you if you are so adamantly opposed to even considering this problem is from your engine and not something outside of it.
Please advise.
John F
May 31, 2011 01:55:24 PM, usengine wrote:
All your info from Mike comes from me or John. Both John and I know your having a fuel problem we seen this before. So again how much oil are you using that what counts. If you don't want to check you can return your engine for repairs but if its fuel you have to pay. You will have to take all your parts off back to thew way you got it from us. Blue smoke is fuel most think its black it is also but thats fuel not buring. Let me know what you want to do. As for your oil down the entire length of the head gasket oil does not pass through your head gaskets you have a leak. Sounds like your intake manifold is installed wrong and now its pulling oil from under the intake. Thats why I put on your warranty tighten intake manifold 7 times. Please read your warranty again.
Charlie
