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Hard to shift DP-C

mstman69

New member
I have a 93 Chaparral with a DP-C
Once the unit has warmed up, say, 10 minutes of run time, it becomes difficult to shift.
The only way to obtain a gear change is to stop the engine, manually turn the prop, it will then shift.
I have changed the shift cone and associated parts per Volvo's service bulletins.
I have seen articles mentioning lapping in the shift cone. Is this something that should have been done. If so how is it done?
Thanks
 
I'd suggest too high an idle RPM, but you say that you must shut down and turn the prop shaft for disengagement sleeve/cup!
That's got to making docking fun! :D

When you changed the shift shoe, did you replace with "Like" and did you notice which sliding sleeve was used?
If the sliding sleeve is steel, it requires the bonze clad shoe. If brass, the steel shoe.
However, that's not quite where I'm heading with this.

Volvo Penta, (in and around the C, C1 models, if memory serves me) tried several special coated steel sleeves and cups.
Without researching this via your drive #, I can't say which sliding sleeve/gear cup combination you have.
I seem to recal a bulletin suggesting that these can stick causing them to not separate and release for neutral.

The brass sleeves and steel cups can be very carefully lapped, cleaned and reused. (you won't read this anywhere in the work shop manual)
However, the coated steel sleeve and cups cannot be lapped due to the coating.


One other thing to check (possibly) would be the 33C shift cable jacket and clamp at the drive.
If the shift cable crimped fitting is not fully captured by the bracket, or if the bracket itself is loose, the cable jacket may be sliding and not offering full inner cable travel.
If so, this may limit the rotation of the eccentric piston and shift shoe.

That is a long shot........ I'm just tossing it in the mix here.
 
Rick
Thanks for the reply.
The original cone was steel, I replaced it with the one VP said would solve the bulletin they released.
It is brass, I also replace the shoe with the one VP said was a match.
As you pointed out, the manual doesn't say anything about lapping the cone and clutches.
I've rebuilt engines for years, so I understand the idea of lapping, aka valves, not sure how to "lap"
the clutch and cone assembly.
I unhooked the cable and shifted the drive manually, dangerous but effective, still didn't shift. I replaced the shifter assembly because I ruined it trying to get the unit to shift. As you said, docking was an issue.....
My unit # is 872777
The serial is 3102143552
What about lube type? I was using VP synthetic.
Thanks for the input.
 
Below is an image of the upper "driven gear and gear cup".
The top part is a double ball angular contact bearing.
Below that is the "driven" gear.
Attached to the driven gear is the "cup" or "gear cup".

images


And directly above here is a steel "sliding sleeve".
Look closely and you can see the steep agressive spline pitch inside of it.


Here's the vertical shaft that all three components rotate on.
See attached photo below.... the red arrow points to these spiral splines that the sliding sleeve glides up/down on.

images


The sum of these parts make up the "Cone Clutch".


The conical surface of the sliding sleeve mates to an exact shaped "gear cup".... both above and below it.
One rotating CW, and one rotating CCW if looking down on them.
When the sleeve is raised or lowered into a spinning cup, friction begins the process of turning the sliding sleeve.
Since the sliding sleeve is splined to the vertical shaft, the sleeve/shaft resists turning due to the shaft's eventual connection to the propeller.
As RPM increase the resistance becomes greater and the sleeve is pulled into the cup under greater force.
Once the load over-comes the slip friction, we have full "lock-up" and full gear engagement.

It's sort of like a spiral EZ-Out tool.... as the EZ-out bites into the drilled out broken bolt, it starts to turn 1:1 with the bolt and eventually extracts the bolt fragment.
Now if the bolt was to suddenly start turning faster than the EZ-Out, the two would release from one another.
The Volvo Penta cone clutch would also release if vertical shaft suddenly began rotating faster than the driven gear.
Basically, it's a one-way-clutch on top on everything else.
This is also why there's no RH Reverse Rotation Volvo Penta I/O engine.... we just reverse the lower shaft direction and prop accordingly.
But I'm getting side tracked here......
Back to the cone clutch;

While in neutral it just so happens that pulling the sleeve from the cup works.... well, it's suppose to work! :rolleyes:

I think what's happening is that your sleeve is not releasing from the gear cup..... even while the torque is reduced at engine idle.
Something is causing it to stick!
This could be due to the cups still having this coating on them, and the sleeve now being brass.

Lapping the sleeve to each respective cup may correct this problem.
Or perhaps polishing the coating away from the cups.
The oil groves in the sleeve must also be pristinely clean and free from metallic debris.
Milky oil (water intrusion) can also do funny things to these.

.
 

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This may be a better image of the transmission components with a clearer view of the vertical shaft splines and sliding sleeve arrangement.

These can appear to be rather intimidating when viewing the schematic, but these are actually quite easy to work on.
Keep all shims where they were, keep the two driven gears and the sliding sleeve in their original orientation, and nothing changes to the gear pattern.

This is also an oportunity to pull the main drive gear from the bearing box and look at the two bearings (seq #'s 13 & 14).
The OEM work shop manual will give you the rolling torque specs and procedure.



Upper Gear Unit DP-C11.gif
 
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No fear.
I totally undrerstand the principle of what you've told me.
You've been doing this a while.
Since the unit did this before I changed the cone, it sounds as though, based on what you're saying that the cups are probably glazed.
I have already had the unit apart to replace the cone so tearing it down isn't an issue. I have been building engines and differentials for a long time, so I understand the principle you're describing.
My main concerns are, what's the best way to deglaze the cones, is glass beading to harsh for this application?
The second is how is the lapping process done? Years ago old timers lapped valves into a head with lapping paste so I understand this process. I don't see how that can be done in this instance.
Can you help with this ?
Also I've read a lot about different kinds of lube for these units, there seems to be a lot of opinions.
The book calls for VP synthetic, is there something better? I read some are using engine oil. This goes against my training as they wouldn't seem to be engineered for this kind of service. Any thoughts?
you've put a lot of time into sharing knowledge that you've aquired, I do appreciate it.
thanks
kevin
 
Synthetic GL-5 gear lube should work just fine in the Duo Prop drive. Typically if there is an issue with GL-5, it's in an oder drive and it's with slippage, not sticking!
Your Duo Prop does not use a slinger pump.
The s/p drives must use Engine Oil viscosity due to the die-cast aluminum centrifugal pump (aka slinger pump) that is attached to the lower unit "driven" gear.
Gear oil in an s/p drive may damage the slinger pump drive pin. If we loose that slinger pump, we've lost upper unit cooling.

Either drive pumps cooler lower unit oil to the upper unit, and it then gravity drains back down.


Kevin, lapping is pretty easy, but I personally have a little trick that I use to ensure an even pressure pattern.

BTW, you'll be de-glazing the gear cups, not necessarily the sliding sleeve, but material is removed from both during the process.

You can also begin with fine emery paper on the cups.
I do this while rolling the gear along the edge of my rubber top work bench and while holding onto the bearing.
The emery cloth is applied to the cup while it's spinning.
This turns my hands and bench into a lathe..... so to speak. LOL
The main thing is "even-ness".


Back to lapping:
Again, I need to be clear on this... Volvo Penta does not say anything about lapping these, thus no suggestion as to a procedure..... at least none that I am aware of.
Lapping has become a procedure outside of Volvo Penta, but it does work, and many of us do this.

Now, the kicker is the coated gear cups.... if yours are the coated type from using the prior steel sliding sleeve.
You'll know if these are coated because they will appear to be darkened and not a shinny bright carbon steel color.
You'd think that removing the coating would bring these back to being similar to the standard cups that are intended for the brass sliding sleeve.
So this is where we must be extra clear that you're on your own with regard to doing this.
Woud I give this a try??? Yes, I probably would because the only other option is a gear set change $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ or back to another steel sliding sleeve!

Nut shelling this:
Start by picking out any metallic debris from the oiling groves in the sliding sleeve.
Look closely, as there may be a small amount of metallic debris here.

NOTE: the sleeve is directional in that there is a top and bottom to them. It will say "top" on the side that is intended to face UP. So make sure that the sleeve is facing into it's respective gear cup.

With a driven gear down on the bench (cup facing UP), and lapping compond wiped evely on the cup, I rotate the sliding sleeve XX degrees with my right hand while pushing downward into the cup.
With one completed stroke, I'm continusouly indexing the gear/cup XX degrees in the oposite direction with my left hand.
This is to ensure an even amount of pressure around the cup since this is being done by hand... not by machine.

As you do this, you'll feel a change in friction as the lapping compond breaks down into a more fine cutting ability.
At this point I pull them apart and look at the cup to see if the glazing is being cut away.
(don't forget that some can be cut away with the emery cloth)
You can add a bit light oil to the compound if you wish.

Repeat the process if necessary.

Clean all compound from each component..... and in particular from the oiling groves in the sleeve and at the deepest area of the cup.
Oil the surfaces before re-assembly.

I sure hope that this solves the problem. Not sure what else to suggest.
About all you can do is to give it a try.

Use caution at/near the dock. I can't imagine docking while I could not find neutral!
images
 
Rick
I do appreciate the info.
I'll let you know how it works out.
If I need to replace the upper gear box, any suggestions where I might find a decent used one??
thanks
Kevin
 
Kevin, I usually have these ready to go, but currently have nothing in a "C" transmission.
I do have several very clean/nice C and later upper transmission gear cases and bearing boxes that I could build up.
You could always ship yours to me and I could tear it down and take a look.
These ship nicely in a USPS flat rate box for around $16.
 
Had the same problem on a Larson last season. Had to replace parts #47 thru #53 on Rick diagram to repair it. All parts were damaged slightly and would not function as a whole.
 
Kevin, if it's already been re-sealed, and all I need to do is pull it apart and examine the sleeve and cups, it doesn't take long to tear one down and reassemble.
A few new O-rings and probably 1 to 1-1/2 hr or so.
 
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