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Best type of batteries for 1990 twin crusader 454's?

nightstalker

Regular Contributor
I don't know if it was the previous owner or Luhr's that set up my boat this way, but here it is. Each engine has a dual purpose (starting/deep cycle) battery dedicated to it. These batteries also serve as house batteries. There is a third deep cycle battery that starts the genny. This third deep cycle does not serve as a house battery and is not connected to the onboard charger. I've heard that dual purpose batteries are not the best way to go. I like the AGM's but I hear they are also dual purpose and wouldn't fit anyway. Would high quality marine deep cycle batteries start my Crusaders and serve as good house batteries, or should I stick with the dual purpose batteries like I already have? I know I should have starting batteries for the engines and deep cycle for the house, but that kind of wiring set up may be beyond my capabilities.
Nightstalker
Nightstalker
 
If the genset battery turns the generator over properly, I think I would leave it alone. Generators in boats like ours are small engines, and don't take much energy from the battery. IF you have an emergency start bypass switch on the dash to deal with one dead or low main engine battery, AND you don't do a lot of anchoring out without the generator running I'd leave it all alone. Luhrs is a reasonable, and cost effective electrical design for those without a lot of house load.
 
If your current set-up is meeting your needs and you never kill your batteries from running a house load at anchor, I would leave it alone - it works "for you".

If however, you are considering going with a separate starting and house bank set-up, I suggest you go to the Blue Sea site and have a read on their "add a battery" package.

The package contains a new switch and a charge relay (plus all instructions, which are quite easy to follow even for the less mechanically inclined).

But, going to the dual set-up (start/house) would mean adding at least one other battery to the mix (so extra cost and weight) and possibly two. And while it would allow you to greater house power without the genny running, that may not be practical or desireable for the way "you use" your boat. The genny negates the need for a dedicated house bank in most cases.

But you are correct in one respect. A flooded acid "starting" battery will give you more dedicated cranking amps (and ultimately have a longer life) than any dual-purpose battery (they are built different internally). And on the flip side, a deep cycle, AGM or Gel cell will have a longer life than a dual purpose if used exclusively for house loads (they will accept more charge cycles before they die).

You would generally find that starting batteries are less expensive than dual purpose, but the duals are less expensive than deep cycle (flooded) and half the price or less than AGM's or Gel's - at least at initial purchace.
 
Dave:
Are you saying that I should just replace my dual purpose batteries with new ones? I do have the parallel start switch at the helm and don't spend much time utilizing the "house" batteries at anchor or when fishing.
Thanks
Nightstalker
If the genset battery turns the generator over properly, I think I would leave it alone. Generators in boats like ours are small engines, and don't take much energy from the battery. IF you have an emergency start bypass switch on the dash to deal with one dead or low main engine battery, AND you don't do a lot of anchoring out without the generator running I'd leave it all alone. Luhrs is a reasonable, and cost effective electrical design for those without a lot of house load.
 
I purchased 2 Group 27 dual purpose marine batteries from Sam's Club when I got my boat 2 years ago, 6 months ago I added 2 more Grp 27 batteries for my house bank. I have 2 Yandina combiners and a 3 bank 50 AMP charger. All four batteries are the same type, make, and close to the same age.

I just purchased a Group24 for the genny (Sam's Club), but this is not connected to my 3 bank charger. I figured I will connect my AC trickle to this battery when need be, this charger is what I use for the cars. I am curious to see how long before it needs a charge.

Overall I have been happy with these batteries, while I would have loved to go with AGM, I have to watch the money because there are so many other things that need work on this 22 year old boat. My thought was by the time these batteries need replacement, I then can devote the money necessary for AGM.
 
THe dual purpose batts seem like a reasonable selection; The next go around for the genset, i'd likely go for a starting battery. If the batteries are difficult to check, that's more ammunition for AGM/s
 
THe dual purpose batts seem like a reasonable selection; The next go around for the genset, i'd likely go for a starting battery. If the batteries are difficult to check, that's more ammunition for AGM/s[/QUOTE

I think I'm going to go with a pair of group 31 dual purpose batteries for the Crusaders and will replace the deep cycle genset battery with a cranking battery when it starts to give up the ghost.
Thanks,
Nightstalker
 
Not good to leave a battery sitting there without a charger keeping it topped up. A small "battery maintainer" (not a trickle charger--they tend to over-charge) will do the job. I have two on my boat, one for the house battery, and one for Mr. Port. A dual-bank charger (6 amps) keeps Mr. Starboard and a second house battery charged up. These batteries are used for the bilge pumps, water system and lights, hence the 'real' charger.

Note: One battery per charger! I have learned this lesson after wrecking two batteries. You have to separate them or both batteries will eventually die.

Jeff
 
I too have a Luhrs set up with the two engine batteries doubling as house batteries and a separate bat for the generator. After a set of lead acid dual purpose (provided with the new boat) and a set of lead acid deep cycles (provided by me) it got dual purpose AGMS for the engines and a starting bat for the gen. I have had that set up for four years now and they are working great. It is nice not having to mess with pulling the engine room floor up to check the battery levels.
One thing, are you sure that your gen bat is not hooked up to the charger? My factory set up has the charger hooked up to all of the batteries.
 
I may not be the right person to offer you help on this due my preferences with regard to Redundancy and KIS (keep it simple).

IMOO, we want "Cranking" batteries for our engine starting needs.... NOT dual purpose batteries or single Deep Cycle batteries.

And again IMOO, both engines should not be capable of providing HLBB power (HLBB = house load battery bank).
There is no redundancy if we set things up this way.
We want to keep a dedicated cranking battery in "Reserve" (unless we were certain that a battery management mistake would not occur).


I am not familiar with your boat, but I'll bet that there are times when you may have considerable 12vdc House Loads.
Lights, phone chargers, TV, Inverters, radio, etc.
These loads are generally best served if a large bank of Deep Cycles are installed and dedicated for this purpose ONLY.
Better yet..... 6 volt Golf Cart batteries in series (these offer increased Amp Hours over that of 12 volt batteries in parallel).

Note that on many OEM set-ups, the Stbd engine (if set up this way) will source the House Loads.
Meaning that the cabin lights, Stbd helm, Nav Lights, Anchor Lights, Heater/Wipers, etc, will be sourced from the Stbd Engine Harness/Hull Harness interface (unless this has been changed, or if the boat was not originally set up this way).

Ideally we will keep the HLBB separate from the SLBB for this same Stbd side engine.... and again, keeping the cranking battery in "Reserve" while on the hook or docked, etc.
This is commonly acheived via an MBSS ( i.e., main battery selector switch.... 1/ALL/2/OFF).
This may mean two battery banks for the Stbd side.
One "cranking" (typically on #1)...... and one large bank of multiple Deep Cycle batteries (typically on #2).

However, this can be altered as shown in the attached schematic.
(see attached image)
This is a very simple installation for twin engines.
This is not does not offer any automatic switching or charging, etc.
All of that can be added via an ACR or VSR at any time later on.


While I did mention that we want to use a dedicated "cranking" battery for our starting needs..... there is way to use a large bank of Deep Cycyle batteried for "cranking".
Note that the Stbd engine has only one battery bank..... a large bank of Deep Cycles!
The space that would normally be used for a cranking battery, can now be used for an incresed HLBB.

Note the manual and solenoid "combining feature" from the Port side cranking bank to the Stbd side.
For me, on my own boat, this is my Stbd side redundancy!
The solenoid feature is helm switch controlled.
(I use this system, and it works very well)
Again, this can also done with the use of an ACR unit.

I've been cranking my Stbd engine on my large HLBB for years now..... and ZERO issues to date.
The "key" to this, is quick firing engines, and a large bank that is capable of providing cold cranking amps.... of which we do not normally do with smaller banks of Deep Cycle batteries.
Increase the capacity, and we gain in two areas..... House Load capacity and Cranking ability.

A system like this does require some degree of manual battery management.
For a seasoned captain or helmsman, this is usually not an issue.
Add one of Xantrex's LINK systems, and you can't go wrong.

Of course your generator will have it's own battery also.


Edit:
I'd also suggest that O/B Charger leads connect directly to the rear of our MBSS (#1 and #2 terminals), rather than make direct battery connections.
This is schematically identical, but eliminates small terminal corrosion that can occur at direct battery connections.
Also eliminates the typical Rat's Nest that we so often see at batteries.

A main bilge pump float switch can also make it's connection to the #2 terminal (typically the largest bank).
(if the attached schematic was used, this would become #1 terminal)
This remains "Un-Interruptible", but again with no direct battery corrosion potential.

All of the above circuits remain active regardless of MBSS selection, including OFF.
While leaving your boat unattended..... ya switch on your O/B Smart Charger.... ya turn the MBSS OFF, and all is good!
If you moore, your main bilge pump float switch is on Stand-By ready to go.


****************************
There's always more than one way to skin a cat... but the Furier may prefer one over the other. :D

Anyway.... just a few suggestions for you.
 

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How do I determine if the genset battery is hooked up to the vessels charger?
Stalker

I too have a Luhrs set up with the two engine batteries doubling as house batteries and a separate bat for the generator. After a set of lead acid dual purpose (provided with the new boat) and a set of lead acid deep cycles (provided by me) it got dual purpose AGMS for the engines and a starting bat for the gen. I have had that set up for four years now and they are working great. It is nice not having to mess with pulling the engine room floor up to check the battery levels.
One thing, are you sure that your gen bat is not hooked up to the charger? My factory set up has the charger hooked up to all of the batteries.
 
Are you saying I can use a "smart" charger like they sell at auto stores and just plug it into a socket on the boat, or is there a marine charger that I should wire into the boats electrical system?
Nightstalker

Not good to leave a battery sitting there without a charger keeping it topped up. A small "battery maintainer" (not a trickle charger--they tend to over-charge) will do the job. I have two on my boat, one for the house battery, and one for Mr. Port. A dual-bank charger (6 amps) keeps Mr. Starboard and a second house battery charged up. These batteries are used for the bilge pumps, water system and lights, hence the 'real' charger.

Note: One battery per charger! I have learned this lesson after wrecking two batteries. You have to separate them or both batteries will eventually die.

Jeff
 
My boat had the DC main panel wired to the starboard battery. When I would overnight the starboard battery would be dead the next morning. Take the "all around light", cabin lights, frig, etc. all drew a lot of power. To solve this problem I rewired the DC main panel to my windless Perko switch (10 AWG) then to 2 new dual purpose group 27 batteries connected in parallel. I do have a new 3 bank 50 AMP on-board charger (free because I am a beta tester for Pro Mariner) and 2 Yandina combiners. I have been testing this setup and so far it has been working great. I am not an expert, and not sure this was the best method, but so far it seems to work well. I will know more next week when I make the run to Key West and then Cuba, providing I can solve a low voltage problem with one of my alternators.
 
How do I determine if the genset battery is hooked up to the vessels charger?
Stalker
If this is a Marine Generator, it should provide it's own battery charging.
If you want redundancy, this is where an ACR would work.

Are you saying I can use a "smart" charger like they sell at auto stores and just plug it into a socket on the boat, or is there a marine charger that I should wire into the boats electrical system?
Nightstalker
If you love your boat well enough to have it insured, you may want to avoid using anything but a Marine approved charger.
Today, most all good Marine O/B Chargers use 3 stage Smart Charge technology.
The wrong charger can kill our battery banks..... and in short order.

So in short..... yes, you'll want a good Marine Charger of a decent charge rate capacity......, and yes...., I would wire this directly to the rear of your MBSS, making it a more permanent connection.


BTW, the price is coming down all the time on Xantrex's LINKlite system.
Some sellers are offering this for under $200.

The LINK system tracks Amp Hours (via shunt resistor data) and does not necessarily use Voltage as the means of determining battery SOC.
Amp Hours are what we want to minotor..... sorta like a fuel gauge let's us know just what our fuel capacity is.
Wet Cell batteries seem to fair better, and offer a tad bit more Amp Hours.
Wet Cells also fair better if we prevent a discharge any greater than 50% (this is what also kills our batteries when left in state of discharge for any lenght of time)
Get them charged back up sooner than later!
The LINK system gives us this data at the push of a button... and we know when to re-charge.

No.... I don't work for Xantrex! :D ..... just happen to like this product and have been using one for several years.
I have the LINK 1000, and it's been one of the better and more useful items that I've purchased.

If we're going to be on the hook for any length of time.... battery management becomes pretty darn important!
That, and the type and capacity of our House Load battery bank.

We can calculate our anticipated daily loads x's run time (refrigerator, for example).
Lights, frig, radio, TV, etc.
This is our Amp Hour consumption per daily use!
We size our LHBB of Deep Cycle batteries accordingly, and with a margin of safety.
For those of us with an O/B generator..... we are able to re-charge at a reasonable rate.
For those of us who are limited to Engine Alternator charging.... this requires a considerable longer charge duration.
(alternators typically cut back charge rate rather quickly)
In this case, we may want to increase the HLBB capacity if limited to Engine Alternator charging ONLY.
Again, if we make 50% discharge our max, and re-charge when we nearing this, we'll extend our battery life.

If you were to do a search re; the use of 6 volt golf cart batteries, you'll be surprised to see how often these are being used for our Marine HLBB's.
Cabled in series, the 6 volt G/C's generally offer greater Amp Hours than an equal number/size of 12 volt batteries paralleled.
We want Amp Hours.... not CCA for House Loads.


.
 
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