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1957 3hp flywheel recharge

N

n8kfe

New member
Folks
I am looking for a bit of tech help. I'm refreshing a 1957 3hp model 3022 and would like to re-magnetize the flywheel as the secondary voltage is a bit low at idle. I have done this several time on Model Ts and have a magnetizer that will work. What I need to know is the orientation of the magnet poles in the fly wheel. All of my test magnets are too strong to get reliably readings. I have attached a pic of the flywheel can you markup the location of the N & S poles?
Greg
 

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I doubt the flywheel is faulty !!----Picture of your coils and condensers ?-----What kind of plug wires are on it?----Solid wire core or something else ?
 
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Flywheels rarely need a recharge. Time and heat, of course, is your enemy. Finding poles is simple with a compass. North on compass will POINT TO south pole on the magnet. I have recharged and it does give stronger spark.
 

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I agree, they rarely go bad, but can get weak. I have a couple that went through a garage fire. They got weak. Tried recharging them with some high powered magnets from the ore mine up in Hibbing, (my friend worked in supply). The result was quite dramatic. The flywheels produced weak or no spark before, but a strong 5/16" open air arc, once recharged. They are still in stock here. I haven't tried them in awhile however, maybe they are weaker now. With good spark, you can warm up the motor first, then start it by spinning the flywheel with the palm of your hands, fuel tank removed, of course. Maybe I'm stupid, but I like to make a good impression with my customers. Been rebuilding these little beasts for 55 years. I have a screwdriver that I add washers to for weight, then hang on the magnet to see how strong it is. You will be surprised how the strength can vary. If the strength is greater, I've noticed it will start with a slower pull. Lately I have had time to play around with these. Last season I sold 5 or 6 of them, shipping all over the country. Buyers have all been pleased, some even sending video clips.
 
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A " bit low " means what ?----Any numbers or value ?----Does the motor stop running ?----Look for the real problem of weal spark.
 
Yes, all great questions. Flywheel magnetic strength is the very last, and likely insignificant factor to consider. All of us here have worked on thousands of these. The replacement coils now are cheap and mostly trouble free. Breaker points can be pretty poor quality, but still adequate. Coils need to be positioned properly, and a loose stator plate can complicate things, making coil gap and point settings inconsistent. Often 60 year old wires can fail, arcing across to ground, and getting stiff and less flexible. Lastly, you must consider the stator plate is making a good ground. Sometimes I even ADD a high quality copper wire to provide a positive ground. There are other things to consider first, before worrying about magnetism. But I commend you for appealing to the Forum. Myself, I have gained considerable knowledge here from my mentors.
 
timguy said:
I agree, they rarely go bad, but can get weak. I have a couple that went through a garage fire. They got weak. Tried recharging them with some high powered magnets from the ore mine up in Hibbing, (my friend worked in supply). The result was quite dramatic. The flywheels produced weak or no spark before, but a strong 5/16" open air arc, once recharged. They are still in stock here. I haven't tried them in awhile however, maybe they are weaker now. With good spark, you can warm up the motor first, then start it by spinning the flywheel with the palm of your hands, fuel tank removed, of course. Maybe I'm stupid, but I like to make a good impression with my customers. Been rebuilding these little beasts for 55 years. I have a screwdriver that I add washers to for weight, then hang on the magnet to see how strong it is. You will be surprised how the strength can vary. If the strength is greater, I've noticed it will start with a slower pull. Lately I have had time to play around with these. Last season I sold 5 or 6 of them, shipping all over the country. Buyers have all been pleased, some even sending video clips.
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"went through a garage fire". Well that's different.
 
Yup, right, Gator. I'm just saying what drove me to play with magnetism here.
The wire you have is really flexible, I have these on my old 429 scj Ford. The AM radio doesn't sound the best, but the 429 gets damn hot spark, man.
 

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Were breaker points set with a meter ?----Were coils set with the correct air gap.----Any pictures of the coils / condensers ?----If new coils were installed what were the part numbers ?
 
The magnetizer I have is actually for Model T Ford magnets. It is 2 large wire wound electromagnets that plug in the wall and draws about 12 amps. The T magnets are not rare earth, 100 years old and run in hot oil so they loose magnetism and it's common to recharge them. the hardest part of recharging the flywheel is that i need to make a new frame and rearrange the coils. I went and bought a cheap compass and identified the poles after the lack of focused comments. over the next few weeks I'll build the frame and zap the magnets. Rare earth magnets don't recharge as well the heat treated steel in the T but it's worth a shot.
 
I doubt the magnets are an issue.------Since 1968 I have never come across weak magnets on any of the " universal magnetos " like found on your 3 HP.
 
n8kfe said:
. over the next few weeks I'll build the frame and zap the magnets. Rare earth magnets don't recharge as well the heat treated steel in the T but it's worth a shot.
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You’ve ignored a very focused comment. Post #14 above. The exact same flywheel was used for 10 years after your motor. It would take 10 minutes to change flywheels…
 
I believe the OP is experimenting. Of course he can get a different flywheel. I am excited to see where he goes with this, and will stronger magnets alone, make the difference on his spark?....can someone make an effective repair by simply charging the magnets to a higher than normal strength? I encourage him to experiment and give us his findings. Thanks OP.
 
<p>
Edchris177 said:
You’ve ignored a very focused comment. Post #14 above. The exact same flywheel was used for 10 years after your motor. It would take 10 minutes to change flywheels…
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IF I had a second flywheel you are correct........Unlike some I only have one of this vintage.</p>
 
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What is the problem anyway? Why do you think you need a "stronger" spark? Spark voltage is limited to whatever it takes to jump the gap.
 
It has been 45 years since I attended class on large aircraft piston engines. The physics behind those ignition systeMs hasn’t changed.
Lenz law governs the production of current , as the field collapses. As you know current is generated by cutting the magnetic field by conducting coils. One of the most critical aspects is the angle the flux lines are cut by.
The greatest potential is when they are cut at 90*. Cutting at 0* results in no current- which is why you see a sinusoidal path when a spinning generator output is graphed.
Grade five science, we all sprinkled iron filings on a sheet of paper laid on a magnet, to observe the magnetic field. But, that gave a two dimensional picture of a 3D force field
The issue I see, is making sure your “re-magnetization” results in the magnetic field being restored at exactly the same orientation as original. Mess that up, & you will have a weaker spark. My dad was born in 1912, & talked about recharging those old systems, but IIRC, he said the magnets come out. They were sort of V shaped, so it was easy to orientate them. That is more difficult with the flywheel magnets.
Take some photos of your original spark, & the “new” spark.
 
Edchris177 said:
It has been 45 years since I attended class on large aircraft piston engines. The physics behind those ignition systeMs hasn’t changed.
Lenz law governs the production of current , as the field collapses. As you know current is generated by cutting the magnetic field by conducting coils. One of the most critical aspects is the angle the flux lines are cut by.
The greatest potential is when they are cut at 90*. Cutting at 0* results in no current- which is why you see a sinusoidal path when a spinning generator output is graphed.
Grade five science, we all sprinkled iron filings on a sheet of paper laid on a magnet, to observe the magnetic field. But, that gave a two dimensional picture of a 3D force field
The issue I see, is making sure your “re-magnetization” results in the magnetic field being restored at exactly the same orientation as original. Mess that up, & you will have a weaker spark. My dad was born in 1912, & talked about recharging those old systems, but IIRC, he said the magnets come out. They were sort of V shaped, so it was easy to orientate them. That is more difficult with the flywheel magnets.
Take some photos of your original spark, & the “new” spark.
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Hm--m--m--m. I followed the Lenz Law comments. Up to the part about re-magnetization at the same orientation. Hope I don't have to lie awake tonight pondering on that.
 
It is interesting to see the range of comments from the forum when asked a question that none have an simple answer. To those who question the balance of the system I have applied Occam's razor and eliminated the simple easy stuff. This includes points, coils, associated gaps and timing points, plugs, plug wires, compression, carb, fuel quality, alcohol in the fuel, ect. This motor runs at idle trolling for the vast majority of the hours. Occasionally it will misfire, and on about 1 in 10 it will die, this is not a lot but enough to be annoying. Having been thru the balance of the outboard it's time to address the flywheel magnets. By increasing the magnetic field the energy available in the spark winding will be increased. While the voltage across a fixed gap will not increase with increased energy the current will hence creating a bluer 'fatter' spark. While college physics class was more than a few years ago as I recall Lenze's law also talks about the velocity of the changing magnetic field, so the faster the change the more energy transferred for mechanical to electrical. This is the reason that the spark is 'weaker' at low speed rather than at wide open. The">sinusoidal<is created by the change in the density of the magnetic field, which can be visualized by the angle that the lines of force. Now the required voltage to cross a fixed gap changes with pressure but that's a different discussion. in addition the density of the magnetic flux is inversely proportional to the cube of the distance. This is the reason for setting the spark coil gap as close to the flywheel as possible. The closer it is the more available energy. Remagnetizing T magnets is far simpler than messing with fixed magnets in a small flywheel. First the materials have vastly different magnetic properties and secondly isolating the poles is MUCH more difficult on a fixed magnet. I'm not convinced that with the size of the magnetic field, in terms of gauss, I can only affect a single pole in the flywheel. It is going to take a jig to focus the magnetic pulse. A series of magnetic pulses is required as rare earth magnets do not take remagnetizing well.  The can be affected but not easily. I will post a picture of the poles marked on the flywheel when I get a chance. I will also post the results of the flywheel magnet revitalization latter this winter. 
 
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I am about to learn something I guess.-----Have never had an issue with weak magnets.----On any of the motors from 1.5 HP to 40 HP that use this magneto.-----From 1950 QD model to about 1990 on the 3 HP model
 
Same here. Six days a week, year 'round, 24 years in outboard and small engine work. Have yet to see week magnets in engines produced since WWII. True, pre-war iron magnets would lose their charge. Often compensated by closer plug gap as low as 0.015". Interestingly, modern engines do not have the infamous and sought-after fat blue spark. Instead, they might have a skinny white spark capable of jumping a 3/4" gap that will knock you right out of your BVD's.

Plus, a diploma saying I am a radio/TV repairman (I'm not). But I do know about Mr Lenz' Law.

Maybe, we have found the elusive bad flywheel here, I'll sign off and await further news.
 
I'm so very interested in this post. I wake up each day so excited to open the Forum. My wife is getting mad at me. I appeal to the OP to get this "show on the road". I have so many of these flywheels around, I could just send you one....but that might end all the fun. I noted reduced magnetism on some flywheels but still adequate spark. Seems the units are engineered with enough windings in the coils to produce ample spark even with a poorly set coil gap, or weak magnetism. This has also let me discover that when coils are improperly set, and rub the magnets, it can destroy the coil from heat and doesn't seem to harm the magnets. I replace the coil, and BINGO....great spark. As I mentioned before, a loose stator plate can complicate things. The OP can check continuity to ground from the stator plate when it's in different throttle positions.
 
You remagnetize a magnet by bringing it into contact with a strong magnet. So, if you have a weakened magnet, you must carefully bring it to contact with a strong neodymium magnet. This will make your weakened magnet regain its magnetic
 
n8kfe said:
Remagnetizing T magnets is far simpler than messing with fixed magnets in a small flywheel. First the materials have vastly different magnetic properties and secondly isolating the poles is MUCH more difficult on a fixed magnet. I'm not convinced that with the size of the magnetic field, in terms of gauss, I can only affect a single pole in the flywheel. It is going to take a jig to focus the magnetic pulse. A series of magnetic pulses is required as rare earth magnets do not take remagnetizing well.  The can be affected but not easily. I will post a picture of the poles marked on the flywheel when I get a chance. I will also post the results of the flywheel magnet revitalization latter this winter. 
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That is what I was alluding to. It has also been decades since I studied electricity & magnetism at college level. Earlier years, we did mess around with magnets, bar magnets were easily obtained from local stores. I once did something that would be severely frowned upon today. Taping small bar magnets to the head of one of my sisters pigeons, to see if it messed up their navigation.
Speakimg of Occams Razor, would it not be simple to determine the location of each pole, then measure how much mass it would suspend.
Then have Tim do the same with several flywheels & compare values?
I get the mad scientist thing, I too sometimes spend more time than most would on a problem, but in this case, I would pay Tim to ship me three flywheels, (I’d send them back after), & measure the voltage produced & magnetic strength of each…and see if it made any difference to how the motor runs.
Do report back on what you discover.
 
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This motor runs at idle trolling for the vast majority of the hours. Occasionally it will misfire, and on about 1 in 10 it will die, this is not a lot but enough to be annoying.
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Weak magnets will not cause a misfire....weak spark cannot jump plug gap in the cylinder due to compression and plug will foul. A misfire/spit is a carb/fuel problem due to lean A/F ratio or leak. Could be a crankcase leak that expands under temp...
 
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