AQ250 steering fork removal (i've read all the exiting threads, I think I have something different)

Hello, new member, but have been reading for a while.
1968 Bertram Baron twin holman-moody 289 volvo aq250 (I *THINK* it is a 250 based on pictures and PZ NR 250 1748 B)
Engines and drives spotless, almost showroom (same for boat)
(had helmet off in about 1 minute) Nothing on this boat is seized/rusted/stuck, even steering fork is free moving.
Outdrive swings freely port/starboard and has no play on the vertical access.
Problem...While keeping the out-drive stationary, the steering arm (tiller?) inside can move 6"
I can see the yoke shaft not moving, but the steering arm is moving through 6" of travel so seemingly not connected (well) to splines on steering yoke shaft.
This behavior is odd, because once the free movement stops, the tiller does indeed start to move the drive
I can force it against the person holding the drive outside the boat.
Move it 6" the other way freely and again, it has purchase on the drive and the person outside can feel me trying to move the drive.

Loosened the pinch nut generously, drove steel chisel into the gap on tiller arm.
Drove wood wedges into gap above yoke and under transom shield to the point I thought i would bend or break yoke (learned all this from the forum, thanks RicardoMarine and the other contributors).
Used impact socket (smaller than yoke shaft) and hammer to 'persuade' it a bit from inside.
Absolutely no movement and the sound I hear is very metallic, as if the shaft is being held in place by a collar or some other immovable metal barrier. (reminder: tiller arm moves freely back and forth on yoke shaft 6" inches of play)

I've not removed the drive, just the helmet assembly.
Have been dreaming some theory that I need to remove the drive, pivot the fork to a full 90 degrees and it will fall out in my hands ; )

#1 did i guess the model number correctly? I found a page of diagrams some having PZ NR ranges that seemed to indicate this is a 250.
#2 is there such a thing as some kind of step I haven't yet accomplished and I'm working AGAINST that barrier?
#3 if I had to heat something, would have no idea what it could be, tiller arm moves freely on yoke shaft (when it should not due to splines)
#4 do I just redouble my efforts: a little move force on the outside wedges and little more aggressive pounding from inside?

Sincerely appreciate in advance any guidance.

Best Regards,

Rich

PS. Edited this post to remove (or attempt to remove) a bunch of HTML looking stuff that got embedded in the text. Not sure I succeeded.

To clarify this 6" thing.

Outdrive centered, tiller arm inside centered. Someone outside boat holds outdrive. I move tiller arm 3" to port easily, outside person feels nothing. I move tiller arm farther and person can now feel me trying to turn the outdrive.

Update:

Steering fork shaft has a half-cylindrical recess in it for the steering arm pinch bolt. I spent too much time looking at pictures online and not crawling up over the engine to get a good look at that joint. Removed that bolt and making headway getting fork out. Belive the side to side movement was the steering not clamped on splines (or splines gone) and the arm only engaged as the bolt wedged against the shaft.

Steering arm and fork still move freely side to side, but very resistant to coming out of the drive housing. Seemingly half way there.

Have pretty clear idea how i'll solve this for future work, but need to get fork out to confirm.

Pull shaft back up about 1/4" and then clean/burnish all crap off the shaft.

Top of shaft not ever accessible. The top of the housing basically a slot cut that steering arm fits into. So boss above steering arm is same height (thick) as the portion of fork shaft above steering fork It is flush with top of housing when installed.

I'm reluctant to keep pounding on it, but that seemed to be moving it fairly 'easily' until it stopped. Top of shaft now about flush with top of steering arm, so down about an inch or so.

Thinking i'll stack some washers on it and continue from there to change some of the shock geometery and protect the top of the shaft.. Top of shaft well 'peened' and i'll likely have to clean up the threads for the zerk.

Nylon bushing i can see seems to be perfectly intact. This was a freshwater boat and just NO oxidation anywhere..everything comes off easily. Hard to believe Nylon bushings (even if some corrosion on the aluminum fork shaft could produce this much resistance)

Very much looking forward to getting this thing out and learning from it before I do the other. Also looking forward to doing whatever it takes to make sure this task isn't anywhere near as painful in the future...all ears if you've suggestions.

This boat was very well maintained and I will continue that level or exceed it.

Thanks for insight.

...and the 1 inch or so of shaft I can see outside above the fork is well lubricated, no corrosion/oxidation. Making its resistance to being removed even more perplexing.

That vertical shaft "runs" on a needle bearing in the transom housing... any "burrs" or "peening" on the top end of the shaft will be a problem for removing it.

Ouch.

Fortunately peening not too bad (so far), but any is a problem if the top must pass through a needle bearing. From pictures i've seen I'd guess any peening i've introduced won't be proud of the splines on the shaft.

Does the needle bearing cage come out with the shaft? In other words, replaceable?

It had little problem going past the top most nylon bushing but recognize nylon and steel off far different resistance ; )

Since the top of shaft is completely inaccessible (from the side), it looks like the only way out of this is to get the fork out and rebuild/replace what is left.

Thanks for heads up.

OK, success and I indeed have something different than what I've seen on the board here.

1) No splines on fork shaft, nor were there any it appears
2) There is indeed a half cylinder recess milled into the shaft for the steering arm bolt
3) Steering arm is a beast. Holman Moody part and it has no splines either.

shaft diameter appears to 1 3/32. Is that a standard size I can get bushing and a seal for?
steering arm pinch bolt has no real effect on gap...can tighten bolt to the point of near breaking and it has no effect on the opening. Whoever installed this (I assume original) really screwed up. Would suspect there was little play at first, but in no time I presume (because the shaft is aluminum) there had to wear to introduce the slop I see today. 54 year old boat so it probably at least worked for a while.

Not exactly sure how I'm going to solve this, but very likely, per RichardoMarine suggestions, i'll cut the groove deeper in the arm and very likely cut out a section opposite that groove to allow the pinch to actually happen somewhat more uniformly.

I THINK i've attached pictures, can't say until I submit.

The picture of the transom housing and shaft boss includes a shot of the tilt motor encased in some kind of, what looks like epoxy...anybody run into this in the past? Potting that stuff like this was probably a good idea but 10's of years later it is breaking down and will now hasten corrosion by trapping moisture. I'm all ears on how to get this stuff off and any ideas on how to make a more secure connection between the steering arm and steering yoke shaft.

Regards,

Rich

if you have access to some machine shop facilities.... cut ( mil) a slot to take a woodruff key 180 degrees across from the slot in the arm. Cut a corresponding one in the shaft. Many years ago I had to do something like this on my brothers circa 1973 Datsun 240 Z when the keyway on the end of the crankshaft got sloppy and the vibration damper started to wobble. I cut the existing keyway on the vibratin damper wider and deeper with a hand file while it was in a vise and opened up the keyway on the crank ( while still on the engine in the car) with a stone mounted in a flexible shaft tool.
If you do this, don't get the location of the keyway off by 180 on the steering fork Alternatively if there is enough meat in the fork for the next larger bolt, mill/file the "groove" to a v profile to wedge the larger bolt. If I was doing this, I'd go with a key.

IF you're doing the key, be sure that the final fitment, i.e. the widths of the slots in the arm and shaft is done with a hand file, just a few strokes at a time... you want a smooth, snug fit.

Was thinking same thing with square key instead of woodruff.

Shaft would have to be milled all the way to top, then when installing, stop when yoke shaft at bottom of boss opening..'surgically' place key through top of boss opening then continue to move yoke up. Key will be held in place by upper boss.

Is that about what you were thinking?

I know there must be a reason, but hard to figure how this approach to the connection was better than the spline connection from Volvo. The steering arm is 15/16 think, don't know if all Volvos of this type have an opening for that thickness.

Volvo Penta dealer/service center says no way am I going to find the bushings and seals. Showed me the yokes on the drives sense and easily 50% beefier. Mine is apparently from way back (is indeed an AQ250) and that style had a tendency to bend in certain conditions. Based on the later ones he showed me, I get it.<br>
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So, machine shop says they can make brass bushings but said there is a miracle worker bearing place here in St. Pete I need to try first.<br>
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Any one have a line on parts for what appears to be some kind of unicorn?<br><br>Included some pics of boat to explain why I'm trying to get this one solved : )

Don't believe the "dealer" until you check ebay... there are a lot of NOS Volvo Penta parts on there...

Yes indeed and have found some bushings but they seem to be invariably for the larger, more current size fork. I've not given up on this approach because this won't be the only research effort for these drives and determined to keep this boat stock.

I THINK i'm going to get a current bushing and cut it down. Yes there will be a slot, but done right it won't be much of one if the two sides butt perfectly and that is a grease filled space anyway. My theory being that will outlast the mechanical parts in the drive or me.

Update and maybe a useful contact for folks looking for parts.

Had visited Blue Water Marine Repair in Gulfport FL. They didn't have a manual for the AQ250 and apparently threw in the towel. When Volvo asked them to provide the engine side part number, I figured I was screwed because I don't believe Volvo ever provided the Holman-Moody package, that was done locally...in this case Miami. Maybe all were done there, don't recall if I've ever seen a Holman-Moody/Volvo set up on any boat not built in Miami. In the meantime the owner DID locate a manual for the AQ250 and told me to bring the drives and the boat in, so that is where we are now. They are confident they can get the parts, except for the steering fork bushings which I'm getting made from Delrin, not Brass. The U-joint needle bearing caps were working their out of the u-joint...almost like there was no retaining clip..I did find a couple in the bellows, but looks like all were gone...that will be an interesting mystery. Suspect (or hope) they could be found from an automotive supplier, they appear standard issue parts. The large splined PDSt spooked them. They are thinking that might be a 2 bearing variety which, of course, requires pulling the engine. Fingers crossed. Port side shaft has lots of play so replacement for sure. That side also had a hole in the bellows so no mystery there was secondary damage.

Blue Water certainly has the right attitude so far...looking forward to some progress. In my parts search I came across Sweden Marine Parts in Finland. These folks (Marcus in this case) were very helpful and I had hope I might be able to find some of the parts I needed. For now I'll pin my hopes on the local guy.. family owned, good folks it seems. When I asked him about the viability of the Volvo drive he said 'sure, he's seen them go 20 years'..I pointed out we were looking at 2 laying on the pallet that have gone 54 years (so old, likely the originals on this 1968 Bertram). I still am working so don't have the time to do this right in a reasonable amount of time (Quality/Cheap/Fast conundrum) so relying on somebody else. nce that changes, I do the work, so if anybody has a list of wear items for these drives they think I need to buy now while available (if indeed available) let me know... i'll make a list. I can think of some but I've no experience with Volvo drives. I might re-power it one day but that seems blasphemous for this old classic. It'll be driven like an old classic so there is some solid hope I can make this work.

Best

Rich

The 280 drive in my 1969 Chris replaced the original 250 that was in it when I got the boat over 15 years ago, The 250 was the wrong ratio so I swapped for a 280. The 280 drive is a salvage from a sunken houseboat that looked to have had a Ford in it. The "Hollman Moody" setup. i.e. the extended housing between the block and the transom was also used by Chriscraft on it's deep V Lancers as well as by the completely unknown mfg of the house boat that "donated" it's 280 drive to me... No repairs ( other than an upgrade on a washer) to the internals as yet.

I grew up in Venice FL and the volvo/holman-moody set-up was in the Donzi 16 and Formulas we saw at the time. There was indeed a Lancer in town and it looked like a more civilized Donzi due to the decal on the stern quarter and this one had a thru-transom exhaust. I know Chris-Craft is in my area (Sarasota...realized they started in MI I believe and moved there in the 50's) so that might be close enough to Miami to count. Looks like Holman-Moody had an operation in Miami and Long Beach along with the headquarters at the Charlotte airport. Really isn't much about the Holman-Moody presence that impacts the drives anyway and the bearings on the PDS SHOULD be a stock automotive part.

Overall nice to know these things may be more common than I was thinking. Really want to keep this thing as original as possible.

Fortunately the other engine option at the time for the Baron was twin GMC 292's (straight 6) and Mercruiser out-drives. SOOooo if I ever did have to re-power or change drives I could do it in such a way that it still APPEARED stock. Finding more current volvo drives would be preferable though for more reasons than just looks.

Rich

Update:

Basically a hunt for obscure parts. Found but not easily. Looking like drive-line back up to spec. Wanted to note two helpful resources:

1) https://www.freshwatervolvopentaparts.com/ Guy running it is Ryan English. Was very helpful and is very knowledgeable on these drives. Suspect he'll be a continuing go to for my drives.

2) French Creek Marina These folks had the CV assembly I needed..which was a life saver. Ironically only a few miles down the road in Clayton NY where I picked up the boat.