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  1. #61
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    temecula, ca., usa
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    Default Re: 2015 9.9D Not completely broken in

    It's a muffler in Hondaspeak. Good to know if you need a part for it.

  2. #62
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    Default Re: 2015 9.9D Not completely broken in

    Hi,
    Just wanted to mention the main jet since I forgot to do so. I've never seen one clogged or even dirty really and there's usually no reason to take it out.

    But, I should have considered that you're the second owner and that you mentioned that you didn't buy it locally.

    Luckily you're still waiting on the mount gasket so, hopefully, you can still remove the bowl and make certain that the jet is the correct size. The standard jet is a 105 but there is a high altitude jet that is 98. The jet size is stamped on the hex head and is easy to see.

    If it had the 98 and you're under 3,000 ft. altitude, the mix will be lean.

  3. #63

    Default Re: 2015 9.9D Not completely broken in

    My main jet isn’t a hex but a flat screwdriver, not much bigger than a set screw. With excellent light a great magnification I see 105S. There is something before the 1 in 105S and I think it might be a K perhaps the logo of the carburetor manufacture? Engine came from 2130’ and currently residing at 1640’ so 105 makes sense.

    The first sentence is to confirm I have to correct part, my service manual says I have the main jet yet your description has me second guessing myself(no hex head) and with all this new terminology that you have so kindly taught me I want to make sure there is no confusion. Incidentally my service manual is calling the “muffler” a silencer and where it splits apart is the silencer cover.
    Thanks again.

  4. #64
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    Default Re: 2015 9.9D Not completely broken in

    Apologies for the hex thing. I did that from memory. Should have looked it up. I get my carb details mixed up sometimes because I've probably done too many makes and models and getting old.

    Yes, you obviously have correctly identified the main jet and 105 is expected for your altitude. I believe you are correct about the k marking since the carb is made by Keihin but I have never considered that before. Still lesrning after all these yesrs.

    Yes, the muffler thing threw me off when I first started working on Honda but that's what they call it in the parts books. I didn't realize they used the term silencer in the shop manual until you pointed it out. Again, you taught me a few things thanks to your excellent attention to detail.

  5. #65

    Default Re: 2015 9.9D Not completely broken in

    Lake test today. No difference or very marginal improvement. Did a barrel test first and had the hard starting issue but I think that’s due to the idle screw was backed off completely. Will try later once the engine is cold. Gave the throttle a bit more gas and she fired up first pull. I did notice a bit of blue exhaust coming up from under the cowl which the engine has been doing since day one, only seems to happen on the first start of the day. I’m fairly confident that I got the carburetor clean as per the many post above but can’t be 100% sure since I’m new to the game. I gave the plugs a clean while the carburetor was off so I’ll run it a bit longer and check them again. The engine is surging, not dramatically but very subtle You did point out the the water pump had been overheated so I changed the complete assembly, wondering if the overheated water pump could be causing me issues now? I’m sure I read in the service/owners manual that the engine will shut itself down if it gets too hot.

  6. #66
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    Default Re: 2015 9.9D Not completely broken in

    Well, that's a bummer. I hope the guy you bought it from didn't get it so hot that he hurt the engine. Hopefully not. The protection system shuts the engine off during an overheat but a stubborn, stupid, determined operator can override it enough to cause damage.

    But, getting ot from under the dark cloud, lets proceed assuming that didn't happen. You say it's barely broken in so maybe the smoke is simply because the rings haven't fully seated in yet.

    For the initial starting issue look carefully at the choke cable assembly especially the curved cover where it mounts to the carb. Those things are problematic if they get damaged or start cracking there. Unlikely on a motor with low hours but you never know. I don't care much for those because of that. The choke should stall out the engine quickly if pulled out while running about 1500 rpm and the engine should fire pretty quickly when you push the cable back in and crack the throttle a bit to help clear flood.



    For the power and surging complaint I think you have no choice but to check/adjust the valves. I don't see this much with Honda but it's not uncommon for heavier than normal wear to take place during engine break in. If the oil wasn't changed in accordance with the factory guidelines or if the wrong oil was used this might happen.
    So, to get a knowledge baseline to work from it would be wise to verify valve timing and adjustment.
    Then you may want to do a compression test to verify the combustion chambers are sealing well and are doing so equally to one another.

    Very sorry this is happening to you. I know how frustrating this is for anyone.

  7. #67

    Default Re: 2015 9.9D Not completely broken in

    Update: Hard starting I’ve figured out, if ignore the Owner’s Manual and set the throttle a bit past the “start position” as defined by the owners manual it will fire up on the 1st or 2nd pull on a cold engine. It appears that I have too much slack in the throttle cable yet the throttle lever is making contact with the stopper at WOT. Will look at adjusting that with the lock nut and adjusting nut. I turned the idle screw in a bit to increase the idle speed, first attempt I went too far and wasn’t happy with shifting from neutral to forward. The shift was too violent so I backed that off a bit so the shifting is smooth. It now idles smooth and I’m not racing the fish. When I accelerate the engine is still surging at the mid range(between the turtle and the rabbit” but once I get past the rabbit into the high speed jets she runs like a “raped ape”.

    I borrowed a Honda gas tank tank from a neighbor and that made no difference in performance so a faulty gas tank/fuel supply is ruled out.

    Pulling the choke out kills the engine immediately.

    We are heading out on a 2 week trip so I won’t be able to work on the engine till then. My brother in law has a compression tester so I’ll check compression when I get back. I’ve looked at the procedure for checking valve clearance and that seems fairly simple so I’ll check that in a couple of weeks.

    After getting the hard starting figured out I keep coming back to your post #47, particularly the transition and intermediate jets you refer to, to my untrained eye that’s where my issues are. I didn’t remove the breakable pilot screw or the accelerator pump(bellows part). Wondering if I should have)

    One other note when I reassembled the jet nozzle and the main nozzle I didn’t align the holes between the jet nozzle and the main nozzle. The service manual made no mention of it but looking at the picture in the service manual Honda show all the holes aligned. Before threading the plug screw the jet nozzle wasn’t exactly lined up perfectly with the opening in the main nozzle, it’s like the jet nozzle was leaning a VERY small amount. I tried by pushing down on the high side of the bottom lip on the jet nozzle to align the two hole but I couldn’t get the holes to align perfectly. Could this be part of my issues in the intermediate and/mid range?

    Sorry for the long winded post but I’m so close.

  8. #68
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    Default Re: 2015 9.9D Not completely broken in

    Hi 01,

    Well, I hate to say it but this is sounding like you may need to go back and remove the idle set screw and clean that passage. The idle circuit contributes fuel during all phases of operation and has an especially imporrant impact on transition. It's why I emphasized it in the very beginning. You can remove and replace it without breaking off the head if you are carefull.

    The limiter cap is glued on with LocTite thread sealer and you need to apply heat to it with a soldering iron to gently pull it off with pliers. Know that the screw will then not back out of thr hole by unscrewing. The sealing oring acts as a "lock" to hold it even.after the threads have disengaged.

    There are two heads to the screw. The break.away hesd with the screw slot and the head underneath. You have to get a sharp, slender pick under the lower head to overcome the hold of the oring. If ypu pull on the breakaway head it will snap off. But, no big deal if it does because I just file a new slot in the head that's left.

    But you need that breakaway head to turn the screw while removing it. A good idea is to unscrew it until you THINK the threads are disengaged and then continue to unscrew about 50 more turns TO MAKE DANG SURE!

    I still think adjusting the valves and verifying timing is a good thing to do as well.

    Thinking about your seeing blue smoke from the engine compartment, along with the fact that you noticed some oil leakage after the engine was lain down, I also recommend that you inspect and clean the crankcasei breather.

    I have never worried about lining up the main emulsion hole with the jet and I haven't found any reference for doing so in the carb manual.

  9. #69

    Default Re: 2015 9.9D Not completely broken in

    Many Thanks for your help so far. It’s only a $9.00US part so when I’m ready to clean it I’ll get the part beforehand. It’s the shipping that is killing me. We will soon be eligible for a Covid boaster and that road trip will take us into a town that has a Honda dealership. I’m still going to try to take it out as per your instructions but for piece of mind I want a replacement handy. What can go wrong will go wrong.

  10. #70
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    temecula, ca., usa
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    Default Re: 2015 9.9D Not completely broken in

    Yeah, I'm with you on the Murphy's law thing. If you snap that screw head off before completely backing the threads all the way off, it makes it 50 times harder. You would be forced to use a sharp pick to engage the outer edge of the lower screw head and slowly work it counter clockwise until it unscrews. The problem is you can't see the threads in order to know if it's completely disengaged and the pressure the oring exerts on the screw fights you all the way. It's a tedious and frustrating process.
    I know because I've had to do it 3 or 4 times. That's why I caution you to be careful and reverse that screw way MORE than you might think you need to.

    Other than that, the only other issue is to make sure that you don't damage the needle's seat by over tightening the screw when you replace it. Again, the pressure that the oring exerts can interfere with your feel as you bottom out the needle prior to initial setting.

    Good luck.

  11. #71

    Default Re: 2015 9.9D Not completely broken in

    Another couple of questions:

    Ended up buying a new carburetor while I was in the states and a new Carburetor Insulator. The existing insulator, (installed in the factory) is made out of the same material as the gaskets. This new one is made out of plastic and is much thicker, 3/16 vs gasket thickness. Seems strange that what can out of the factory is vastly different then the aftermarket replacement. Does this seem right?

    My next issue is aligning the linkage pivot with the throttle lever. The linkage pivot should be aligned in the vertical plan so when it snaps into the ball on the throttle level everything is sitting square. For some reason the linkage pivot is off about 20-30 degrees. See picture below.
    Click image for larger version. 

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  12. #72

    Default Re: 2015 9.9D Not completely broken in

    Ignore the first paragraph above, got my parts mixed up

  13. #73
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    Default Re: 2015 9.9D Not completely broken in

    Well, I'm confused. I'm not sure what's going on there. I wonder if it might have something to do with the way the carburetor was assembled? If so, that might not be a good thing.

  14. #74

    Default Re: 2015 9.9D Not completely broken in

    No, it’s not the carburetor but the throttle cable has “twisted” about 20-30 degrees inside the throttle cable outer protective sheath. With the throttle cable twisted then the pivot(black plastic piece that fits over the ball on the throttle lever) is twisted also. It will fit together it’s just that the “socket” isn’t riding on the “ball” centred but rather cockeyed.

  15. #75
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    Default Re: 2015 9.9D Not completely broken in

    I think I have seen that before. If the cable end "pops on" the ball and doesn't pop off when the throttle is manipulated then it should be ok.

    I was worried about the carb being impropeely assembled because the photo perspective made it look like (at least to me) that there was some interference taking place.

    I'll be interested in seeing how the new carb performs.

  16. #76

    Default Re: 2015 9.9D Not completely broken in

    In a barrel started 2nd pull, no fuel leaks. On the lake ran like crap, idles okay but that’s it. Give it throttle in neutral and it revs up nice, put it in forward under load and the engine doesn’t rev up like it does in neutral nor does it rev up like the original carburetor. I adjusted the throttle linkage at bit, I’m hitting both stops. The new carburetor came with a new SE valve nut, spring and SE valve but didn’t install it, I checked the distance from the original valve nut to the stopper and I get 14mm as per service manual. The SE valve is all I really toyed with, I’m wondering if somehow during installation that I changed the 14mm? I pull the choke out 1/4” or less and it stalls same as the original carburetor. Any thoughts would be really appreciated.

  17. #77
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    Default Re: 2015 9.9D Not completely broken in

    Well, I don't know. Why did you decide to not use the new SE valve? Maybe you should install the new one and try it again.

    Other than that, have you tried squeezing the fuel bulb when it's falling on it's face? Being that it's "not broken in yet" it shouldn't have a fuel pump problem but who knows?

    I also think you should try doing a "cylinder contribution test".

    Here's how:

    Pull the spark plug wires from the spark plugs and smear a very small amount of dielectric grease (tune-up grease) inside the edge of both plug wire boots with a toothpick or small screwdriver tip. Reinstall the wires, seating them on the plugs firmly.

    Start the engine and then pull one plug wire and note the change that makes. Reinstall the wire then pull the other one and compare the change that one makes to the first.

    The engine may die when the wires are disconnected and that's ok but these engines will often run fairly well on only one cylinder UNTIL you ask for some power. I hope you see where I'm going with this.

    The cylinder that makes the LEAST or NO difference in the way the engine runs is the weak or non contributing cylinder. Often it's simply a bad spark plug.

    Make sure you use insulated pliers or a thick DRY glove or towel to handle the wires to prevent getting shocked. If you have a PACEMAKER, then DO NOT DO THIS! Find someone else to help you get it done though.

    Standing by....

  18. #78

    Default Re: 2015 9.9D Not completely broken in

    Well a second test run was interesting. Ran WAY better for reasons unknown to me. I still have a bit of a miss but we’re heading in the right direction. I had the spark plugs out a while back to give them a clean due to all the idling. Never crossed my mind to replace them, low hours. Should have a spare set on hand anyways. I did compare the “tightness” of the plug boot with a couple of small Honda engines. The outboard boot is quite a bit sloppier than either of the small engines. I’ll look into spark plug/boots/cylinder contribution tomorrow.

    SE valve was part laziness and part time restraint. Looked good and meet Honda spec.

    Pumping fuel bulb makes zero difference.

    Thank for your time.

  19. #79
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    Default Re: 2015 9.9D Not completely broken in

    This is sounding more and more like you might have a cylinder dropping out. Really interested about how the contribution test goes.

  20. #80

    Default Re: 2015 9.9D Not completely broken in

    Pulled the top plug boot, engine died. Repeat top plug test, engine died. Pulled bottom plug lead, no change, engine keep running. Repeat bottom plug test, engine keep running. Gave both plug boots a good push inwards and a gentle jiggle while pushing hard to seat the plug boots. Repeat test, pull top plug boot, definitely a drop in revs, engine kept running with a vibration to the engine. Pull bottom plug boot, drop in revs with a vibration to the engine. While the engine was running on both cylinders felt both boots and lead wires with bare hands standing in thigh deep water(wearing chest waders) as far as I could with the (side cover still on) No shock felt nor could I see any spark. Lighting storm approaching, wife suggested I get out of the water.

  21. #81
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    Default Re: 2015 9.9D Not completely broken in

    Well, that proves that your wife is a very smart lady!

    As for you....

    Well...

    Let's just say that you're tough! ;>)

    All kidding aside, don't repeat that trick while the engine is running above 2000rpm or you may prove how tough you really are!

    The voltage generated by the magneto to drive the ignitiin coil is at it's LOWEST at idle and highest at full engine speed. The fact that you didn't feel a shock is probably attributed partly to because you were testing at idle but also because the insulation of the plug wires is good and protected you in that way.

    Still, it takes about 5k volts to jump a spark so, I consider you lucky...or...tough.

    As the rpms increase, so does that voltage. Possibly over 20k volts!
    I used to get shocked by ignition volts all the time. That is, until I learned how NOT to! But, to each his own.

    The test results indicate to me that your pushing and gentle jiggling of the bottom cylinder plug boot made a positive difference. At least something changed there. If you continue to have cylinder drop out problems, you may need to carefully pinch in the connecetors on the plug wires to get tighter connections to the spark plug ends.

    It is possible that someone before you wasn't so gentle while pushing and twisting them in trying to solve a problem while stuck someplace. Angry, desperate people aren't usually the best mechanics.

    Your not seeing a spark is normal. The spark is "weak" (5k volts) at idle and is very hard to see in the daylight. But you KNOW it has spark or it wouldn't start and run.

    Very interested in knowing how it makes power in gear now.

  22. #82

    Default Re: 2015 9.9D Not completely broken in

    Wife is smart, not the smartest since she married me!

    I have a high tolerance to electricity, I don’t feel electric cattle fences.

    Last time I had the plugs out I did notice there was no dielectric grease on the plugs ends, thought it was strange that Honda didn’t apply any but who am I to question Honda. As far as the previous owner pulling and yanking wires off the plugs is possible but unlikely. When he explained how to shut the engine off it was by pulling the emergency shut off, he thought Honda was dumb by not putting an on/off switch.

    I have new plugs coming Thursday so I’ll have to pull the side cover off to replace them, with the side cover I’ll have better access to the coil and check that the lead wires are firmly set into the coils.

    Are you in favour of a dab of dialectic grease at the plug and coil ends?

    Thanks for your expertise, much appreciated.

  23. #83
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    Default Re: 2015 9.9D Not completely broken in

    When I was a teen, there was an outfit called "Campus Life" that did exhibits at local functions like dances and car shows. I got up on their stage to compete in a quick reactiin contest. Each contestant holds a momentary button switch and sits in a chair that's seat has wires in the cushion. Just like in drag racing when a green light comes on, the person that presses the button first sends a low amperage current of over
    60 000 volts into the buttocks of their "opponent" and gives them a shock. I was able to react quicker and eliminate two contestants quickly. But when the third guy came up I made a grave error. I was nervous and "antsy" as we got prepared for the lights. I reacted first but I was too early. Just as in drag racing, I "red.lighted" by pushing the button too soon. There was a penalty for pushing too soon in that it shocked ME instead of my opponent. YEOWW!
    I jumped up outta that chair and basically did a chicken walk around that stage kicking out two of their light bulbs in the process! They couldn't wait to escort me away!
    Maybe you would have.done well at tthat game.

    Yes, I agree with using the dielectric grease on pretty much ALL connections on an outboard. It just needs to be applied sparingly and in a way that it doesn't hinder current flow as it is non-conductive.

    Can't wait for the."road test'.

  24. #84

    Default Re: 2015 9.9D Not completely broken in

    Road test was a resounding success. Two new spark plug and a bit of “tightening” the plug boot no more miss. Could be me my imagination but it seems I’ve picked up a bit more speed at WOT. Many Thanks for your assistance.

  25. #85
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    Default Re: 2015 9.9D Not completely broken in

    Well, it took a while but, congratulations, you finally got it!
    After I saw the condition that the water pump was in initially, I was definitely worried that it may have been hurt. But, such is not the case and I'm really happy for you!
    Now, go have fun with your boat;>)

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