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Gibson Crusader Champion Series will not start

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Gibby1234

Member
Hello all. I have a 1998 Gibson Sport Series with twin Crusader Champions in red. I am the 3rd owner and have had to boat for 8 years. The port engine starts and runs great. The starboard has always been a bit harder to start but once running has been fine. Fast forward to today, I have been unable to start the starboard motor and have not been able to this season.

Below is what I have done and what I have tested.

  • New starting battery
  • New fuel/water filter (old one had some black gumminess at the bottom and some water which represented as red/dark)
  • I've only every used marine (non-ethanol) gas. Prior owners I cannot vouch for.
  • If I add a little bit if fuel directly to carb throat, the engine will start and run
  • Engine has no electrical fuel pumps - everything is mechanical

Where I have focused:
  • I have confirmed that if I put the throttle all the way forward (before cranking) that no fuel comes from the secondary carb
  • If I manually actuate the accelerator pump (on secondary carb) i hear gas trying to move but none comes out
  • I have confirmed that the secondary carb has fuel in it (I removed the screw to 'see' and actuated the accelerator pump and see fuel coming (slightly) out of the hole where the screw was

I know I need to test the fuel pump between the carb and the tank and basically trace/test fuel flow all the way to the carb. If fuel is flowing, then the issue must be in the carb itself (blocked jet or metering block?). If that is the case, there does not appear to be a replacement carb that matches the original (see pic below).

Any advice and guidance would be greatly appreciated. The boat is kept in Georgia (Lake Lanier) and for the life of me I cannot get ANY mechanic to come look at it (very aggravating).

Thanks!
engine labelv3.jpg669DE105-59F1-417F-95D2-732D63829910.jpg
 
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You need to check your fuel pressure to see if you have a fuel pump/supply issue, or if the carb is gummed up. Either way, it sounds like you're on the right track.
 
you need to see if you can get fuel into the primary bowl and then check it's accelerator pump's function....fuel pumps have finite service lives.

you may also want to make sure any fuel shut off valve is open...they do get left closed sometimes.

if you need to replace the fuel pump, make sure you get one that is marine rated....
 
Thank you. Does the primary bowl have it's own pump? How is it actuated? I know the secondary is actuated by the throttle being pushed nearly all the way forward.
 
usually, yes....but you need to get the STAMPED holley carb number off of the front of the air horn...then you can get the parts listing and know for sure.
 
Hi. I finally found time to get back to the boat. Update and photos below:

1. I pulled one of the fuel lines connected to carb and cranked motor and fuel shot out. So confirmed fuel pump is working.

2. Pulled carb and turned it over into a funnel and collected what is in the water bottle pic below

3. Opened up carb and you can see below that the left bowl is full of something bad

4. Removed fuel fill fitting (which is flat in the back deck and exposed to rain.

Note I have never put anything but marine gas in her. I have owned her for 9 years. Can’t speak for prior owners.

So what is everyone’s assessment? Is that dirt or water in that fuel sample? Why is it only in one bowl? What is that inside my fuel fill fitting (it’s been there since i owned boat). Do I need to pump my fuel tank out? Is it worth it to rebuild the carb? What are my next steps?

thanks!
 
Pics below.
 

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Note I have never put anything but marine gas in her. I have owned her for 9 years. Can’t speak for prior owners.
'marine' gasoline is a marketing gimmick...probably non-ethanol

Is that dirt or water in that fuel sample?
looks like both to me, the cloudiness suggest the fuel is degraded.

Why is it only in one bowl?
Cant tell due to lack of info...guess would be fuel line is plugged or the float was stuck shut.

What is that inside my fuel fill fitting (it’s been there since i owned boat).
My guess is corrosion of the pot metal due to water...looks like the threads are filled/eroded such that the cap can't compress the o-ring to make a good seal. cast stainless fittings don't do this...

Do I need to pump my fuel tank out?very possible

Is it worth it to rebuild the carb?If you can get the float bowls cleaned...many use an ultrasonic cleaner in these situations

What are my next steps? depends upon your desired end state...
 
The problem seems to be lack of use. The boat just sits too much. Needs to be run frequently to keep the fuel system clean and the engine lubricated. Just sitting, water can condense inside the engine block, carb bowls and fuel tank(s). What you need to do is clean out the entire fuel system and replace all the supply hoses. Your other engine is probably as bad but hasn't actually failed yet.
Get a contractor to come drain and "polish" the tank(s). They will dispose of the old fuel. Replace all the lines with Shields Flex-acol fuel hose. Get that at jamestowndistributors.com. Send out the carbs for rebuild if you are unable to do that yourself. Most auto shops can handle that chore but there are spe******ts out there just google it.
In the future keep the tanks filled to reduce the air space and chance for condensation in the tanks but do run the engines at least an hour or two per week to keep it flowing and the engines happy. Do oil changes twice per year whether you think it needs it or not. Spring and fall. All new filters too. Replace the belts yearly. Replace all the water hoses every 5 years when you replace the circulating pumps.
Can't stress maintenance enough. You have been skipping it and now it's biting you in the butt.
 
Thanks. Is it possible that the secondary bowl never sees fuel go through it because when we use the boat we are mostly going low speeds? If so, that fuel in the secondary will always be stale and old no matter how much I run it (at low speed, idle)?

I would love to pay a professional to clean and polish my tanks and work on this. Can’t find a single soul on Atlanta’s largest lake that wants to work on it!
 
Draining and disposing the old fuel is no fun. Call around to some boat yards and ask who they use. You'll have better luck I think.
As to the first question, it means you have to be even more diligent. However, in your case the argument for converting to fuel injection is very compelling. Let's say it costs you $300 per carb per year to have them gone through. In 4 years you could recoup that cost of the more trouble free EFI, which will run happily at 1200 rpm all day.
The Holley Sniper is just what you need. You don't need the 4 barrel version.
https://www.holley.com/products/fue...tory_refurbished_-_sniper_efi/parts/FR550-849

Sell your old carbs you can get maybe 300 each for those. So for $900 you will have an almost bullet proof fuel delivery system for two engines...that's darn cheap!
 
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I'd redo the math before jumping to any conclusions...Don't forget to add the cost and effort to add the O2 sensor if one goes the Sniper route...
 
I’m leaning toward a refurb Holley 4160. Single fuel inlet, vacuum secondary, electric choke. This is based of cost, life of boat, how we run it. I found some web companies that sell them. Around 300-400 bucks. I will need to run fuel line to other side of carb.

I’m planning on ordering next day or two.

Questions:
1. Any concerns of compatibility given I am changing from original holley
2. I have twin engines. I assume I can have different carbs on each one? Meaning I am buying one carb

thanks everyone for their knowledge. Amazing to have this community!

I can start a new thread on the engine pump out part.
 
Update - I installed the new carb today. After several series of cranks she started up. I could only hold idle with the throttle slightly forward. When I pull throttle back she stalled. I was able to start her again and brought back throttle again and she stalled again. After that and since then I have been unable to start her at all.

im at a loss now and if you can guess frustrated. Any advice?
 
Forgot to mention that I dropped the carb before install and the plastic housing of the choke broke. So effectively I was starting her with the choke plate open. I did try a start her by manually closing the choke plate as the rod was ok just the choke housing was smashed. It’s about 75 degrees in atlanta so not sure this has any relation to the issue above.
 
sandkicker said:
RE:"When I pull throttle back she stalled.".... Adjust the idle set screw which is external to the carb.
Click to expand...

thank you. I did get a chance tonight to see how many turns from seated each of the two screws were (as it came from the remanufacturer. One was a half a turn the other one turn. I set them both to 1.5 turns and will try tomorrow.
 
Capt Bob was referring to the screw to open the throttle blades a bit more....once the engine has warmed up (choke open and coolant up to normal, then you can dial in all of the adjustments....idle speed (with throttle closed) and then the idle mixture screws...
 
makomark said:
Capt Bob was referring to the screw to open the throttle blades a bit more....once the engine has warmed up (choke open and coolant up to normal, then you can dial in all of the adjustments....idle speed (with throttle closed) and then the idle mixture screws...
Click to expand...

thank you! I could also keep the throttle advanced a hair after she turns over instead of adjusting the screw to raise idle rpm as you suggested? The carb remanufacturer states they tune it to your engine specs but I don’t know what that all entails. The idle mixture screws sure seemed close to closed as I mentioned above.
 
sure, you can use the handle...but the throttle plates should be adjusted once the engine has been warmed up and the mixture screws set...you will find all of these adjustments have some potential for interaction so it is usually iterative...

Re the reman's statement....unless they know what you have (ENGINE and hull) AND what condition it is in, they can't tune the carb to your application...i believe many of them run the carb on an engine but they never tune it to the application....it is almost always on the rich side so its your money getting wasted...hell, even crusader never knew which hull an engine was going into so how do you think their carb jetting was??? (And Mercruiser, too!!) Anyhow, now you know it is marketing...which is a few notches below politics these days...
 
makomark said:
sure, you can use the handle...but the throttle plates should be adjusted once the engine has been warmed up and the mixture screws set...you will find all of these adjustments have some potential for interaction so it is usually iterative...

Tuned the carb as suggested and she ran very well. Took her out for a test run for the first time this season and had zero issues! Hopefully next weekend she will continue to run this way. Thank you all so much.

Now I have a fuel line connection question. Right now I have a rigged system using the old carb fuel tubes. I have one spur that went to the other bowl on the old carb and epoxied it shut (see pic). Then I added a rubber fuel hose.

I cannot figure out what these connections are. 3/8 flare? AN, npt, etc., all confusing to me.

Now I have a fuel line connection question. 23B3800F-40A0-4054-ADC9-BC8198661CC2.jpg50F73D2F-F076-4C72-A4D5-7F646C3481FB.jpg
Click to expand...
 
Also the threaded post for the spark arrestor is now to tall. When I put the old arrestor on (as seen in pics) the isn’t enough thread to tighten the compression nut on the top. Can I order a new, shorter, spark arrestor post?
 
3/8" inverted flare fittings are what you typically see in the marine world on the larger engines (V-8's).

This is one version of something that may make the clean up easier:
http://www.marineengine.com/newparts/part_details.php?pnum=SIE18-8114

one the stud, sure you can order a shorter one...if you have a good hardware store near you, they can likely find a suitable equivalent...if you have the appropriately sized die, you can cut the one that is there now...
 
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