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Any E10 (Ethanol) problems you are aware of on older engines?

M

moresparks

Regular Contributor
Hi,
Here in the UK we are now having to use E10 Gasoline (10% Ethanol) as opposed to E5.
Is anybody aware of potential problems in using this fuel.?
I have a couple of 1989 Volvo Penta AQ171C's and I have always used Startron gasoline treatment.
I have an aircraft grade Aluminum fuel tank, copper fuel lines to the Fuel Filter / water separator (CAV type). The fuel lines to the engine are nitrile rubber and fairly new.
Should I be worried?
 
Fuel lines for use on boats ( at least here in the USA) must be marked "Alcohol resistant" .... or words to that effect. I've had "pre ethanol" fuel lines dissolve and reappear as a thin film inside the carb. If plastic, carb floats likely a problem.
 
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I've used 91 octane fuel here in the USA forever on my AQ130C, which does contain ethanol per the sticker on the pump, and have never had an issue. I do add a can of SeaFoam to the fuel every other tank, so that may be a factor.
 
am_dew said:
I've used 91 octane fuel here in the USA forever on my AQ130C, which does contain ethanol per the sticker on the pump, and have never had an issue. I do add a can of SeaFoam to the fuel every other tank, so that may be a factor.
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To some extent, it depends on the weather where you boat... here in coastal NJ where it is often damp and foggy, it is a problem. Boating in dry desert conditions should be less of a problem as it appears as if some carb issues I have continuously, in spite of using additives, is due to the chemical reaction with ethanol and atmospheric moisture ( cycled into the fuel tank by temperature extremes and moisture thru the vent) forming hard deposits in small passages that do not dissolve in cleaners. Damage to fuel lines, internal carb plastic parts and in some cases fuel tanks themselves ( ala original Bertrams) is resistant to any mitigation by additives.
 
Also on a boat that has not used ethanol fuel there may be varnish deposits in the tank and using E10 May clean these deposits out which can clog filters for a time so be prepared for that.
 
Ethanol is a scam and a scourge on the marine and small engine industries.

The Just Stop Oil protesters and Greta Thunberg need to be used for fuel.

Just be prepared to replace rubber and plastic parts that will be in contact with the fuel.

Seal the tank vent when it's in storage over the Winter, so it can't breath and cause condensation during temperature inversions and either make sure the tank is bone dry or full, for the same reason.
 
am_dew said:
I've used 91 octane fuel here in the USA forever on my AQ130C, which does contain ethanol per the sticker on the pump, and have never had an issue. I do add a can of SeaFoam to the fuel every other tank, so that may be a factor.
Click to expand...
It’s always interesting to see those against ethanol, but willingly use Seafoam. Have a look at the MDS sheet, Seafoam contains up to 30% alcohol.
All alcohols make very good solvents, (most carb cleaners are 30-40% alcohol), that is the key reason they are used to “clean” engines. Your car runs for 20+ years, without ever touching a fuel injector because the alcohols keep things clean. They also bind readily with water, & move small amounts through the system with no harm.
The issues arise when the fuel sits for long periods. It will continue to absorb any moisture in the system, until it can hold no more. It then phase separates, making the fuel useless, (alcohol is a great antiknock agent), & creating the problems many have experienced. If you use your fuel fairly quickly, there are no issues.
The one caveat, is older systems or materials that are not compatible with the solvent capabilities of alcohol. It will ruin some of the older legacy parts, & yes that will cause problems. As Louc said above, it is such a good cleaner that it will also clean a gummed system, which may give its own issues.
Whether or not we should be burning diesel to grow corn to turn into alcohol to add to fuel is another argument for another day. I don’t believe it’s a good use of resources, but I dont see that changing anytime soon, so we’re stuck with E10.
Here in Canada, all premium hi octane fuels used to be ethanol free, & that’s what I use for things like chainsaws which may have fuel sit for several months. However, lately I’ve noticed that even the 91 octane pumps are starting to show stickers saying they ”may contain up to 5% ethanol”.
 
Edchris177 said:
It’s always interesting to see those against ethanol, but willingly use Seafoam. Have a look at the MDS sheet, Seafoam contains up to 30% alcohol.
All alcohols make very good solvents, (most carb cleaners are 30-40% alcohol), that is the key reason they are used to “clean” engines. Your car runs for 20+ years, without ever touching a fuel injector because the alcohols keep things clean. They also bind readily with water, & move small amounts through the system with no harm.
The issues arise when the fuel sits for long periods. It will continue to absorb any moisture in the system, until it can hold no more. It then phase separates, making the fuel useless, (alcohol is a great antiknock agent), & creating the problems many have experienced. If you use your fuel fairly quickly, there are no issues.
The one caveat, is older systems or materials that are not compatible with the solvent capabilities of alcohol. It will ruin some of the older legacy parts, & yes that will cause problems. As Louc said above, it is such a good cleaner that it will also clean a gummed system, which may give its own issues.
Whether or not we should be burning diesel to grow corn to turn into alcohol to add to fuel is another argument for another day. I don’t believe it’s a good use of resources, but I dont see that changing anytime soon, so we’re stuck with E10.
Here in Canada, all premium hi octane fuels used to be ethanol free, & that’s what I use for things like chainsaws which may have fuel sit for several months. However, lately I’ve noticed that even the 91 octane pumps are starting to show stickers saying they ”may contain up to 5% ethanol”.
Click to expand...
While alcohol raises Octane, its hygroscopic nature is one of the things that make it a bad additive. Also, fuel pump impellers aren't always made for it, so they tend to swell, as they did in the Carter in-tank pumps used for MasterCraft injected engines when MTBE and Ethanol were introduced in the late-'90s. The engines wouldn't start, it was determined that the pumps weren't providing the volume and pressure needed and they were replaced. They often sat until enough parts needed to be returned to the warranty department and by the time MC checked them, the MTBE or Ethanol had evaporated and the pumps worked, which caused problems because nobody wants to pay for replacing 'working' parts.

My friend owns an '89 Carver Santego and it has a sticker on the deck next to the fuel filler cap with "Using Fuel With Alcohol Is Dangerous".
 
E10 also dissolves the innards of older plastic fuel tanks and deposits it as a thin film in the carbs... Also dissolves the linings of many "pre-ethanol" fuel lines both inside and outside engines. In high humidity enviros, also leaves a hard clay colored deposit inside small jets that can only be removes mechanically or by ultrasound. These deposits easily bypass 10 micron ( and likely 2 micron) fuel filters.
 
sandkicker said:
E10 also dissolves the innards of older plastic fuel tanks and deposits it as a thin film in the carbs... Also dissolves the linings of many "pre-ethanol" fuel lines both inside and outside engines. In high humidity enviros, also leaves a hard clay colored deposit inside small jets that can only be removes mechanically or by ultrasound. These deposits easily bypass 10 micron ( and likely 2 micron) fuel filters.
Click to expand...
And then, there are the effects from Alcohol on gasket cements like Quicksilver Perfect Seal, which looks/smells works just like Permatex/NAPA Aviation Form A Gasket and Alcohol is the recommended solvent for those.

Then, there's phase separation, which CAN'T be removed by adding 'dry gas', which I have seen as a recommendation on marine forums for well over 15 years. Sure, it may work for a carbureted engine, but not injected, which has much finer filtering.

When I worked for a boat dealer, I found this in a boat that "didn't run, for some reason". It's slightly green because if the Volvo-Penta fuel stabilizer, which is blue, straight from the bottle. The tank had very little gas in it by the time I worked on it.

For clarity- I'm not claiming this happened because of the Ethanol, but to show how fuel with Ethanol mixes differently from gas/water.
 

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