Logo
FULL SITE MENU

BF225 2003 malfunctioning

B

Bmbf225

Contributing Member
After winter and launching the boat its engine BF225 (2003/about 530 hours) worked normally in the beginning for a single ride of 22 km (13,6 miles). Then suddenly right from the fly engine turned off, just like pulling off mistakenly emergency switch. No warning lights or beeps. Start motor ran, but motor did not start. Had to tow the boat back and carry it to local repair shop. Even after 2 days in harbor before taking off water for the repair shop the engine did not start - only start motor was running and releasing some petrol into water line presumably from exhaust pipe. Also then checked fuses, changed spark plugs, cleaned electrical connectors with contact cleaner.

In repair shop they did not have fault code reader available. Anyway they investigated that injection pump was operating when supplying it power by bypassing the start key turn position one (relay control). They made the engine to start by bypassing the relay control of start key position one by supplying injection pump power connecting it power right after one of the 10A fuse. Thus now when turning key into start position right away (not using key position one) the motor starts ok. Also boat side fuel filter was changed.

Then test ride with above change made the engine ran fine first but exactly after about the same 13,6 miles again speed was reduced to minimum. Again without warning lights and beeps. This time engine did not die but stayed on running very rough when increased rpms. Engine was stopped and started after about half an hour rest. After that it ran roughly when increasing over about 2000-3000 rpm but was managed to ride it for about 12,5 miles back to harbor. Also while tried to increase rpms over about 3000 to got rough run also manually pumped the fuel and noticed manual pump was quite normally full (no vacuum). Also tried to release fuel filling cap but no vacuum noticed there either.

Next steps thought:
* changing fuel filters (low and high pressure) with O-rings (not changed last 10 years/less than 100 hours)
* run engine with remote gasoline tank bypassing boat's integral tank to exclude boat side fuel line issues

What else suggested/recommended?
 
If you have the four light key switch, remove the black cover at the front of the engine, unclip the red connector, remove conector cover and short the green/white wire with the black wire. Turn on the key switch without starting the engine and check the MIL light blinks for a code. If it remains steady on there are no codes in the ECU memory. Hope this helps.
 
Also have a look at the "BF 225 fuel starvation maybe?" post below yours. Fuel line pinching where it enters and goes through the engine is a known issue.
 
Blacktimes said:
If you have the four light key switch, remove the black cover at the front of the engine, unclip the red connector, remove conector cover and short the green/white wire with the black wire. Turn on the key switch without starting the engine and check the MIL light blinks for a code. If it remains steady on there are no codes in the ECU memory. Hope this helps.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately have no 4-light key switch (36452-ZW7-100AH/AHR or 36652-ZW7-100AH/AHR) but this 32340-ZW7-000AH with 2-light remote control box. Suppose above MIL checking is then not applicable?
 
I would start by fitting a new main relay so that everything is back to standard, main relay was a known issue on the early V6's. Then run an active fuel pressure check under load
 
I believe the high pressure filter deteriorates over time without even being used.
It can be the source of a number of fuel issues and needs replacing every year really.
 
Thus replacing this 'Honda Main Relay Assembly 06380-ZY3-000'? Where is this actually located? In the very front part of the motor I suppose?
 
Main relay is behind the black cover at the front of the engine, item 14 of the attached picture. Main relay has three sub relays inside, one for the starter, one for the fuel pump and one for the ECU, injectors, sparks, etc, but it is an assembly and is only one part, just good to know for troubleshooting and measurements...

Fuel, yes, just follow from engine conduit entry to the water fuel separator found on the fwd starboard side. It goes through a grommet and also metal corrosion bulges and squeezes the tube.

NjEyODc-2ab0b6f9.png
 
Blacktimes said:
Main relay is behind the black cover at the front of the engine, item 14 of the attached picture. Main relay has three sub relays inside, one for the starter, one for the fuel pump and one for the ECU, injectors, sparks, etc, but it is an assembly and is only one part, just good to know for troubleshooting and measurements...

Fuel, yes, just follow from engine conduit entry to the water fuel separator found on the fwd starboard side. It goes through a grommet and also metal corrosion bulges and squeezes the tube.

View attachment 27543
Click to expand...

Thanks for your clarifications.

Just to clarify a bit more, is it so that now one of the sub relays (for fuel pump) of the main relay is suspected to not work and prevented the motor to start (letting only start motor running) after the first hit in the problem description? Could that sub relay becoming faulty quit motor working on the fly and caused it to die? Also, would main relay issue cause any fault codes to show up?

Or are there presumably more than one issue on at the moment (eg. starvation because of the fuel line squeeze issue described above or glogged LP/HP fuel filter etc) in addition to main relay issue? Just thinking of the very similar problem hit occurances experienced as described in problem description. During the second problem hit moment the motor was run with fuel pump directly powered using electrical connection bypassing the relay control.
 
The middle sub-relay in the main relay can cause the HP pump to stop and cut your engine. Not too sure about the fault code. If you were feeding the HP pump directly and correctly, I assume you have another problem, I would follow the fuel feed until the water separator, it seems to be fairly common although I have never experienced it. Also note that big Hondas have 5 fuel filters, plus an external fuel water separator, if fitted. Aside from the LP and HP filters, you also have the mesh, the insulator and the fuel pump filter.
 
Lets just start at the beginning. You said they bypassed the relay and powered the fuel pump with a direct feed. This is not good repair practice. The issue should be properly diagnosed and the correct repair procedure followed because there is always a reason for an electrical component to fail. For example, the high pressure pump could be drawing excessive current because it's failing, this will cause a fuse to blow or the main relay failure. That is why at the beginning I suggested getting the system back to standard.So, my suggestion is to get a workshop manual and go through the test precedures to get things working properly including fuel flow and pressure tests. Then if it still doesn't run, tell us what you have checked and come back to us.
 
Thanks for tips, I'll discuss this with the local repair shop. My unfortunately situation is that the boat is in a far away remote location from me and there's no experienced Honda service shops around there.
 
Thinking of getting Main relay replaced. Now Boats.net price for part being 70USD and local Honda dealer's importer price over 300USD thinking which one to go: Boats.net partno 06380-ZY3-000 against Honda dealer partno 38580-ZY3-013. Found information 'Honda 38580-ZY3-013 Superseded by 06380-ZY3-000 - KIT,MAIN RELAY' thus suppose same/corresponding part is in question and 06380-ZY3-000 being so called 'after market' version of the original one? How should I consider them technically and quality wise - are there clear differences other than price? Any experience of Boats.net parts?

Secondly earlier in the Boats.net screenshot by Blacktimes the part is displayed as no 14. According to my serial BAGJ-100xxxx I find Boats.net diagram for 'Start cable' where part is displayed as no 17 (https://www.boats.net/catalog/honda...in-bagj-1000001-to-bagj-1099999/starter-cable) https://www.boats.net/catalog/honda...in-bagj-1000001-to-bagj-1099999/starter-cable and part itself being 06380-ZY3-000 (https://www.boats.net/product/honda/06380-ZY3-000?ref=f3b03e4e76584d0ec3a1383d15744b9e8fdc97b2) https://www.boats.net/product/honda/06380-ZY3-000?ref=f3b03e4e76584d0ec3a1383d15744b9e8fdc97b2 . I suppose the earlier diagram was only an example taken of different machine?
[h=2]View attachment 27700View attachment 27699[/h]
 
Last edited:
Update: Now bypass connection deleted and new main relay installed. No help, injection pump still does not start when turning ignition key to position 1. Some click sound anyway noticed from the back of the engine, so seems some signalling is there. Further when trying to start (key position 2) engine only cranks, won't start. So back to where started...

Next trying to check/test wiring as described in service manual (page 5-59).
 
Tried disconnecting kill switch wires with no difference.

We had no test harness in use thus limited measurements were done.

It seems that PGM-FI main relay's fuel pump subrelay gets no control signal from ECM (FLR1 and FLR2). Any tips what might be prerequisites for ECM to drive full pump relay?

In addition ECM was reset to make sure no ongoing fault would prevent it to control PGM-FI main relay.
 
FLR 1/ FLR 2 provide a ground to the coil of the fuel pump relay. Why not try a ground to a flick switch to the relay and close the circuit while trying to start the engine, see what happens...
 
Blacktimes said:
FLR 1/ FLR 2 provide a ground to the coil of the fuel pump relay. Why not try a ground to a flick switch to the relay and close the circuit while trying to start the engine, see what happens...
Click to expand...

But I understand we should rather know what information/control signal(s) ECM needs to control (give ground) for full pump relay?
 
Yes, correct, but you can work it either way, either find the logic for pump activation or do a quick bypass and see what happens. From what I see on the attached, initial ECU gives a 3 sec HP run for self test and maybe priming purposes. Then main relay, sub relay, left hand, starter, also energizes HP sub relay, middle) via left hand diode, and after starter disengagement, HP sub relay, middle, continues to be energized by right hand sub relay, ECU, injector and ignition relay. The starter relay, which also affects the HP relay is also conditioned by the neutral switch. But if you have starter available, forget the neutral.

I´m starting to suspect that you hay have an ECU issue or ECU wiring issue.
 

Attachments

  • Honda BF200 Wiring Diagram.pdf
    85.3 KB · Views: 44
Blacktimes said:
Yes, correct, but you can work it either way, either find the logic for pump activation or do a quick bypass and see what happens. From what I see on the attached, initial ECU gives a 3 sec HP run for self test and maybe priming purposes. Then main relay, sub relay, left hand, starter, also energizes HP sub relay, middle) via left hand diode, and after starter disengagement, HP sub relay, middle, continues to be energized by right hand sub relay, ECU, injector and ignition relay. The starter relay, which also affects the HP relay is also conditioned by the neutral switch. But if you have starter available, forget the neutral.

I´m starting to suspect that you hay have an ECU issue or ECU wiring issue.
Click to expand...

Thanks very much for clarifications. I suppose the attached diagram is applicable also for my BF225A manufactured 2003 (BAGJ-100xxxx)?
 
Back
Top