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  1. #1
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    Default questions again.... 181ci 4cyl timing problem....

    I have asked the questions and gotten some answers, but there is some conflicting information concerning the answers....

    so im looking for some clarification from someone who knows everything about these 4cylinder engines.... this has been an ongoing problem since I aquired the boat, so please allow me a minute to describe what Ive done with it so far...

    I have a GM 181ci engine and cant get the timing right for some reason.... I bought and tried an EST system, and had numerous problems getting it to set properly, so I have removed it and going back to the conventional distributor, but this time with a pertronix module....

    I acquired this boat as a project at an estate sale, and have the back story on in from the wife of the guy who owned it.... the boat/engine is a factory rebuild with no hours of actual usage due to it never being able to get it to run properly....

    the Delco distributor that was installed at the time I got the boat had an initial timing of 8BTDC (which is correct) and seemed to run fine on the muffs... but the test run on the water showed a problem. when accelerating and while running on plane, it had a serious ping.... when retarding the timing while it was at speed on the water, I could get the ping to go away and run great with lots of power, but when it was returned to an idle, it was extremely rough and wanted to die, which is because the timing was too far retarded now for the idle.... the flyweights are free and work fine, which is seen with the timing light as it runs....

    so instead of trying to fix the old distributor, I bought an EST ignition and tried it.... I had the same issues and could NOT get it to set right after many attempts and too much money spent on trying to fix it....

    so im NOW back to the conventional distributor.

    I took the distributor into the local speed shop to have it turned to see what the curve is, and even though it seemed to follow the curve chart reasonably close without any modifications, the guy that turned it said this was cam specs and not crank specs.... he said the crank specs will be double what is shown on his paperwork.... without opening my mouth and saying something that may insult him, I had to wonder if he knew what he was doing, but I took the distributor and installed it to see what happens now....

    its the same as it was before on the muffs, but I didnt take the boat to the lake just to see it ping again.

    the initial timing is set at 8BTDC, and at 3000rpm, the all in timing shown is about 31BTDC..... according to the charts I see, the "all in" advance should be 24-26BTDC, which the guy at the speed shop said this seemed a bit low... and that base timing needs to be added to the chart to give the actual "all in" timing.....




    so what I need clarification on is, how does one read the "ALL IN" number?... with a conventional distributor, what should I see at the balancer/timing mark when the engine is running at 3500-4000rpm?....

    should the distributor curve be set to the chart, and the initial added to it for "all in".... 8btdc base and 24 degrees advance from the distributor would equal 32BTDC "ALL IN".....

    with all the confusion that I have in my head, im asking someone to figure the numbers out and tell me how many degrees NEEDS to be built into the distributor to get the proper "ALL IN" advance, when I set the initial timing to 8BTDC..... without showing me or instructing me how to decipher the chart.... i need a number to give the guy at the shop so he can set the distributor up to get what the 181 engine needs to run like it should...

    and should the total all in advance show 24-26 degrees at the crank timing mark, or 32 degrees at the crank timing mark?... thank you

  2. #2

    Default Re: questions again.... 181ci 4cyl timing problem....

    24 total


  3. #3

    Default Re: questions again.... 181ci 4cyl timing problem....

    24 total Jpeg of merc service manual. Sounds like mechanic who serviced your distributor or tested it on a Sun marine is more familiar with automotive advances which will be in the 30s

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  4. #4
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    Default Re: questions again.... 181ci 4cyl timing problem....

    Distributor spec

    MCM 3.0L
    Distributor Advance: 16
    Initial Timing: 8 BTDC
    Total Advance: 24 @ 4100 RPM
    Point Gap: .016 in. (0.41 mm)
    Point Dwell: 39 - 45
    Point Spring Tension: 20 -27 oz.
    (567 - 765 g)
    Jack
    Mass.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: questions again.... 181ci 4cyl timing problem....

    Quote Originally Posted by centerline View Post

    I have a GM 181ci engine and cant get the timing right for some reason.... I bought and tried an EST system, and had numerous problems getting it to set properly, so I have removed it and going back to the conventional distributor, but this time with a pertronix module....
    Ouch.... I don't care for the Pertronix version of Hall Effect triggering. But that's another story for another day!


    the Delco distributor that was installed at the time I got the boat had an initial timing of 8BTDC (which is correct) and seemed to run fine on the muffs... but the test run on the water showed a problem. when accelerating and while running on plane, it had a serious ping....
    That "ping" represents pre-ignition.

    when retarding the timing while it was at speed on the water, I could get the ping to go away and run great with lots of power, but when it was returned to an idle, it was extremely rough and wanted to die, which is because the timing was too far retarded now for the idle.... the flyweights are free and work fine, which is seen with the timing light as it runs....
    Take the unit to a shop who owns and operates an old school Sun, Allen or King distributor machine.
    Take your OEM curve graph with you.

    so instead of trying to fix the old distributor, I bought an EST ignition and tried it.... I had the same issues and could NOT get it to set right after many attempts and too much money spent on trying to fix it....

    so im NOW back to the conventional distributor.

    I took the distributor into the local speed shop to have it turned to see what the curve is, and even though it seemed to follow the curve chart reasonably close without any modifications, the guy that turned it said this was cam specs and not crank specs.... he said the crank specs will be double what is shown on his paperwork....
    I have not seen an OEM ignition curve graph that would show the advance in anything other than crankshaft angle.
    Keep in mind that when we check/set ignition advance, we are strobing the harmonic balancer markings, of which are in crankshaft angle.... not in camshaft angle.


    without opening my mouth and saying something that may insult him, I had to wonder if he knew what he was doing, but I took the distributor and installed it to see what happens now....

    its the same as it was before on the muffs, but I didnt take the boat to the lake just to see it ping again.

    the initial timing is set at 8BTDC, and at 3000rpm,
    BASE is set during idle RPM ONLY. You should not be seeing 8 degrees at 3,000 RPM.

    the all in timing shown is about 31BTDC..... according to the charts I see, the "all in" advance should be 24-26BTDC, which the guy at the speed shop said this seemed a bit low... and that base timing needs to be added to the chart to give the actual "all in" timing.....
    Correct, and will be seen ONLY at the Full In RPM!



    so what I need clarification on is, how does one read the "ALL IN" number?... with a conventional distributor, what should I see at the balancer/timing mark when the engine is running at 3500-4000rpm?....
    At 4,100 RPM, and while strobing the timing marks, you should be seeing 24 degrees BTDC.


    should the distributor curve be set to the chart, and the initial added to it for "all in".... 8btdc base and 24 degrees advance from the distributor would equal 32BTDC "ALL IN".....
    When the unit is running in a Sun, Allen or King machine, the operator will see the mechanical advance ONLY.
    He will see this in distributor degrees, not in crankshaft degrees.
    Multiply that Xs 2, and you'll have it in crankshaft degrees.


    with all the confusion that I have in my head, im asking someone to figure the numbers out and tell me how many degrees NEEDS to be built into the distributor to get the proper "ALL IN" advance, when I set the initial timing to 8BTDC.....
    As shown below, the distributor will offer only 16 degrees of mechanical advance.
    When BASE is added to that, you will have your total advance.


    without showing me or instructing me how to decipher the chart.... i need a number to give the guy at the shop so he can set the distributor up to get what the 181 engine needs to run like it should...
    Show him your OEM ignition advance curve. He will do the math and will set it up correctly.

    and should the total all in advance show 24-26 degrees at the crank timing mark,
    Yes! We always view this in crankshaft angle.

    or 32 degrees at the crank timing mark?...
    NO!
    I think that much of this was discussed in your previous thread back in December.

    http://www.marineengine.com/boat-for...r-shift-assist


    See if this helps you (assuming that these values are correct for your engine) :

    Distributor Advance: 16
    This means that your mechanically advancing ignition distributor offers 16 degrees of mechanical advance, of which does NOT include BASE advance.

    Initial Timing: 8 BTDC
    This is your BASE advance, and has ZERO to do with any mechanical advancing.
    BASE advance is controlled by the initial position of the distributor housing relative to the crankshaft angle.
    We start up on BASE, and we idle on BASE.... and that's it.
    Once BASE is set, we tighten the clamping bolt down causing it to hold a continuous 8 degrees of BASE advance.


    Total Advance: 24 @ 4100 RPM
    This represents the "Full In" advance generated by both the mechanical advance and the BASE advance.
    In other words, add BASE of 8 degrees to the mechanical advance of 16 degrees, and you have a total of 24 degrees advance @ 4,100 RPM.
    While strobing the markings dynamically, BASE can't help but to show up along with the progressive advance.
    Example:
    At idle BASE is 8 degrees BTDC.
    Let's say that at 2,000 RPM, the mechanical advance is adding 4 degrees of advance.
    When strobing the marks at 2,000 RPM, we would see a dynamic reading of 12 degrees.... of which is a result of 8 degrees BASE plus the 4 degrees of progressive mechanical advance.



    Point Gap: .016 in. (0.41 mm)
    Point Dwell: 39 - 45
    Point gap is an estimate ONLY of the correct dwell angle.
    Adjust this using a dwell meter, and you won't go wrong.


    Edit:

    A good working mechanically advancing ignition distributor should hold BASE until approx 1,000 RPM.
    Once above 1,000 RPM, you should see the progressive advance become active.
    (see the OEM curve graph for this)

    The progression will continue as per the graph, until you reach the "Full In" RPM.
    At the Full In RPM, you should see the sum of the BASE advance and Progressive advance..... and in your case, a total of 24 degrees @ 4,100 RPM.

    If it's not doing this, something is wrong with it.
    ..... broken or worn out flyweight return springs
    ..... worn or incorrect flyweight cams
    ..... bad or worn out flyweight bushings
    ..... stuck flyweights
    ..... clamp not holding housing down







    .
    Last edited by RicardoMarine; 03-18-2020 at 08:41 AM.
    Rick ... aka Ricardo..... AQ series Volvo Penta repair
    Portland, Oregon
    28' SDN F/B w/ twin Volvo Penta 5.7L DP drives

    "Intellectual growth should commence at birth and cease only at death." Albert Einstein

    Please... no PMs! Post your questions on the forum.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: questions again.... 181ci 4cyl timing problem....

    ..."run great with lots of power, but when it was returned to an idle, it was extremely rough and wanted to die,"

    Is it possible you are being tricked by a flooding carb (and are focused in on timing alone)? I'm guilty of that myself at times.

    Jeff

  7. #7
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    Default Re: questions again.... 181ci 4cyl timing problem....

    Quote Originally Posted by fastjeff View Post
    ..."run great with lots of power, but when it was returned to an idle, it was extremely rough and wanted to die,"

    Is it possible you are being tricked by a flooding carb (and are focused in on timing alone)? I'm guilty of that myself at times.

    Jeff


    All that bull crap above is nothing more that one who likes to prove he can copy and paste and get post count.......WTF!!!!!!!!!!! PCR





    Based on time gone by, Base timing today is more like 4-6*BTDC

    The total advance when mechanical and stock, is what it is. As long as you accelerate properly and can reach Max rpm ~4600. The advance is good and working.
    Bringin it to a speed shop and having it checked is a bit overkill for a 4 banger point distributor...Not much to be wrong with these.
    Typical issues- rust, bad or missing springs, stuck not moving. Dist Gear pin sheared. Other than that not much else.

    Like Jeff suggested, I second this.

    If you set base at ~6*BTDC and you cannot get smooth idle at ~650-750 rpm then start looking elsewhere.
    Jack
    Mass.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: questions again.... 181ci 4cyl timing problem....

    ............
    The total advance when mechanical and stock, is what it is. As long as you accelerate properly and can reach Max rpm ~4600. The advance is good and working.
    Yes folks, in spite of Centerline's current issues (as explained in this new thread), throw caution to the wind and roll the dice.

    Bringin it to a speed shop and having it checked is a bit overkill for a 4 banger point distributor... Not much to be wrong with these.
    I would enjoy hearing a good explanation as to the issue that Centerline is experiencing and why taking it to a Sun, Allen or King operator would be over-kill.
    Furthermore, I'd like to hear why a 4 banger ignition system is of less importance over that of any other engine.

    Typical issues- rust, bad or missing springs, stuck not moving. Dist Gear pin sheared. Other than that not much else.
    I would also like to hear how an engine would even run with a sheared driven gear spring pin!

    Like Jeff suggested, I second this.
    The idling portion is only one aspect of Centerline's problem, and it had to do with cutting the advance back to eliminate the pinging. This cut BASE back by the same amount.
    Here.... I'll loan you these.


    Rick ... aka Ricardo..... AQ series Volvo Penta repair
    Portland, Oregon
    28' SDN F/B w/ twin Volvo Penta 5.7L DP drives

    "Intellectual growth should commence at birth and cease only at death." Albert Einstein

    Please... no PMs! Post your questions on the forum.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: questions again.... 181ci 4cyl timing problem....

    why don't you post what the shop provided you as the distributor's "timing curve" and we can assess what is going on.

    MCM used several distributors on the 181CID engines over the years so its very possible to have multiple answers until specific units are identified.

    depending upon how much use the engine had in its 'retarded cam timing' state, it may be worth verifying its still in decent (serviceable) condition - compression test would be a minimum - a leakdown test would be preferred....

  10. #10
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    Default Re: questions again.... 181ci 4cyl timing problem....

    Are you 100 percent certain that your issues are centered on the distributor? You say the engine was rebuilt. Huge red flag there.
    Practicing the ancient art of ren-ching

  11. #11
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    Default Re: questions again.... 181ci 4cyl timing problem....

    Quote Originally Posted by kghost View Post
    Bringin it to a speed shop and having it checked is a bit overkill for a 4 banger point distributor...Not much to be wrong with these.
    Typical issues- rust, bad or missing springs, stuck not moving. Dist Gear pin sheared. Other than that not much else.

    Like Jeff suggested, I second this.

    If you set base at ~6*BTDC and you cannot get smooth idle at ~650-750 rpm then start looking elsewhere.
    the distributor is in good condition... no rust, corrosion or worn shaft bearing, and the flyweights work as they should EXCEPT that the distributor is set up with too much mechanical advance in it.... im not sure how, or care why a 4cyl marine distributor for this family of engines would be set up this way, but now that Im absolutely certain of how much advance the dist is supposed to give for this engine, I can have the speed shop set it up this way ....

    the engine idles great when I set the timing at 6 or 8 btdc... when I mentioned that it wouldnt, it was in reference to when I returned to an idle after adjusting the distributor with the faulty advance curve in it while running at 3500 on the water.... because then the base timing was retarded to almost 0... I could Bring it back up to 6 or 8 and get it to run great again, but when I accelerated i had to turn the distributor back again because it was advancing too far at 3500 rpm... so there is not any other problem but just too much movement in the distributor flyweights for this engine... it obviously was a donor distributor from another engine, or the flyweight stop bushings fell out of it....

  12. #12
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    Default Re: questions again.... 181ci 4cyl timing problem....

    I gave all the information he wrote down when he ran the dist, back to him to adjust it to MY specs, not HIS specs.... so I dont have the numbers in front of me.

    yes, different years called for slightly different specs, which depending on which manual one reads, they get different answers... merc manual #1 gives different specs than merc manual #26.... and another merc manual has different numbers than either 1 or 26.... depending on the years upgrades and changes made over the years... this is an '87 block, assembled with the newer head, so its now referred to as a 181 vortec, but nothing special about it, just the newer style head.

    the engine hasnt been ran this way, other than for test runs attempting to locate the problem, and because I couldnt believe the distributor could be this far off, I have taken the engine down trying to see if the cam, timing gears or crank was indexed incorrectly when it was manufactured... and it all looks new inside, and everything is indexed as it is supposed to be...

  13. #13
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    Default Re: questions again.... 181ci 4cyl timing problem....

    as Ive mentioned before (in another thread) I suspected there may have been an internal problem.... so I removed the engine and took it down to inspect and make sure the rotatating assembly was all indexed correctly, individual components as well as together after they were all assembled again...

    I have had the distributor spun and it is getting 23 degrees of advance built into it.... too much with a base of 8 degrees, plus 23 degrees gives me the 31 degrees all in im seeing.... somebody had it set up wrong when the PO installed it in the "new motor"... which is obviously why he couldnt get it to run right.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: questions again.... 181ci 4cyl timing problem....

    Quote Originally Posted by RicardoMarine View Post
    ............
    I appreciate all the help EVERYONE has given, and now im sure im on the right track to getting it to run as it should... I suspected the distributor to begin with which is why I switched to the more modern EST distributor, but it had programming issues of its own...

    I could run the boat as it was, but someone had to be under the hood adjusting the distributor all the time... kinda like driving an old model T ford where you had to advance and retard the magneto with the lever on the dash panel, so it would run right at the rpm it was at... ;-)

  15. #15
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    Default Re: questions again.... 181ci 4cyl timing problem....

    ......................
    Quote Originally Posted by centerline View Post
    the distributor is in good condition... no rust, corrosion or worn shaft bearing, and the flyweights work as they should EXCEPT that the distributor is set up with too much mechanical advance in it....
    This is exactly why you would take it to a shop who has Sun, Allen or King distributor machine and the experience to operate it.

    Side note:
    The person doing the distributor machine work will know that the degrees of distributor advance will be calculated for crankshaft angle.
    In other words, what he sees will be Xs 2 for crankshaft angle, of which is what we use for ignition timing.



    im not sure how, or care why a 4cyl marine distributor for this family of engines would be set up this way, but now that Im absolutely certain of how much advance the dist is supposed to give for this engine, I can have the speed shop set it up this way ....
    Yes! Now you're on the right track!

    the engine idles great when I set the timing at 6 or 8 btdc...
    As it should!

    when I mentioned that it wouldnt, it was in reference to when I returned to an idle after adjusting the distributor with the faulty advance curve in it while running at 3500 on the water. because then the base timing was retarded to almost 0...
    I understood you when you posted that.
    Apparently one member did not have his reading glasses on!

    I could Bring it back up to 6 or 8 and get it to run great again, but when I accelerated i had to turn the distributor back again because it was advancing too far at 3500 rpm...
    Again, I understood you when you posted that, and that is what lead me to my other comments.

    This is why it's so important to read and to comprehend what the OP posts.
    If something is unclear, we need to ask the OP for clarification before responding.


    so there is not any other problem but just too much movement in the distributor flyweights for this engine... it obviously was a donor distributor from another engine, or the flyweight stop bushings fell out of it...
    That should be an easy fix if the parts are available!
    Quote Originally Posted by centerline View Post
    I gave all the information he wrote down when he ran the dist, back to him to adjust it to MY specs, not HIS specs.... so I dont have the numbers in front of me.

    yes, different years called for slightly different specs, which depending on which manual one reads, they get different answers... merc manual #1 gives different specs than merc manual #26.... and another merc manual has different numbers than either 1 or 26.... depending on the years upgrades and changes made over the years... this is an '87 block, assembled with the newer head, so its now referred to as a 181 vortec, but nothing special about it, just the newer style head.
    When looking at the values for "distributor advance" only, what is the spread between them?
    In other words, if one source shows 16* of distributor advance, what does another one show?


    the engine hasnt been ran this way, other than for test runs attempting to locate the problem, and because I couldnt believe the distributor could be this far off, I have taken the engine down trying to see if the cam, timing gears or crank was indexed incorrectly when it was manufactured... and it all looks new inside, and everything is indexed as it is supposed to be...
    I think that we touched on this in your other thread!

    As for the comment re; a rebuilt engine being a "huge red flag", pay no attention to that. You are past that.

    Quote Originally Posted by centerline View Post
    as Ive mentioned before (in another thread) I suspected there may have been an internal problem.... so I removed the engine and took it down to inspect and make sure the rotatating assembly was all indexed correctly, individual components as well as together after they were all assembled again...
    See above!

    I have had the distributor spun and it is getting 23 degrees of advance built into it.... too much with a base of 8 degrees, plus 23 degrees gives me the 31 degrees all in im seeing.... somebody had it set up wrong when the PO installed it in the "new motor"... which is obviously why he couldnt get it to run right.
    You are correct..... if the distributor advance alone was 23*, and if you add a BASE of 8* to it, you now have 31* at the Full In RPM.


    One last thought.
    Make dang sure that the person who sets up the distributor, knows that BASE advance will NOT be seen while the unit is on the Sun, Allen or King machine.
    He will be seeing and will be setting it up for distributor advance ONLY.

    YOU will be setting the BASE advance.




    .
    Last edited by RicardoMarine; 03-19-2020 at 07:26 AM.
    Rick ... aka Ricardo..... AQ series Volvo Penta repair
    Portland, Oregon
    28' SDN F/B w/ twin Volvo Penta 5.7L DP drives

    "Intellectual growth should commence at birth and cease only at death." Albert Einstein

    Please... no PMs! Post your questions on the forum.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: questions again.... 181ci 4cyl timing problem....

    Quote Originally Posted by centerline View Post
    I appreciate all the help EVERYONE has given, and now im sure im on the right track to getting it to run as it should... I suspected the distributor to begin with which is why I switched to the more modern EST distributor, but it had programming issues of its own...

    I could run the boat as it was, but someone had to be under the hood adjusting the distributor all the time... kinda like driving an old model T ford where you had to advance and retard the magneto with the lever on the dash panel, so it would run right at the rpm it was at... ;-)
    Funny that you'd mention that. I'm old enough to remember the Model T. Several of our neighbors had them, and I recall the handle that adjusted the spark timing.






    I also remember that people could hurt themselves starting one up with the hand crank.





    .
    Last edited by RicardoMarine; 03-19-2020 at 07:41 AM.
    Rick ... aka Ricardo..... AQ series Volvo Penta repair
    Portland, Oregon
    28' SDN F/B w/ twin Volvo Penta 5.7L DP drives

    "Intellectual growth should commence at birth and cease only at death." Albert Einstein

    Please... no PMs! Post your questions on the forum.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: questions again.... 181ci 4cyl timing problem....

    Damn interesting diagrams! Thanks. (Often wondered how that was done.)

    Very few people today could drive a Model T with its vastly different setup. Assuming they could get it started in the first place!

    Jeff

  18. #18
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    Default Re: questions again.... 181ci 4cyl timing problem....

    I don't know how he does it but I think a new record has been set for useless information being added to a thread. It's like he trains up by reading ****** all day.
    Practicing the ancient art of ren-ching

  19. #19
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    Default Re: questions again.... 181ci 4cyl timing problem....

    Quote Originally Posted by o2batsea View Post
    I don't know how he does it but I think a new record has been set for useless information being added to a thread. It's like he trains up by reading ****** all day.
    At best, that was very Passive/Aggressive!

    Assuming that the above comments were targeting me ...... what was it about my contributions to this thread that you consider to be useless information?
    Perhaps more importantly, if we see risky, inaccurate or dangerous info, it is our unwritten duty to explain why.
    I will challenge you do that!

    If one member disagrees with another, we should explain why and do so politely.

    Post counts only indicate one's participation. No need to be threatened by post counts!

    Disruptions (as per post #18) only add delays, they add no useful content to a thread, and they often run the OP away.



    I will suggest to any member, who may be grouchy, to STOP eating "Gripe Nuts" in the morning.......



    ..... and switch to something that will help them gain a better and more polite attitude.










    For those members who post with a bad attitude or a "I'll get you" attitude or a "I'll show you" attitude, take a minute to read what you are about to post.
    Does it sound polite or grumpy?
    Does it add to the thread, or does it disrupt the thread?
    Does it help to resolve the OPs issue?
    How does it look from the other member's point of view?


    .
    Last edited by RicardoMarine; 03-20-2020 at 09:09 AM.
    Rick ... aka Ricardo..... AQ series Volvo Penta repair
    Portland, Oregon
    28' SDN F/B w/ twin Volvo Penta 5.7L DP drives

    "Intellectual growth should commence at birth and cease only at death." Albert Einstein

    Please... no PMs! Post your questions on the forum.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: questions again.... 181ci 4cyl timing problem....

    WTF..............Dude get a life.

    All of your info is useless. as usual...........Way overboard for a simple problem......

    Who wants to read so much garbage! OMFG!

    Stay away with your crap.
    Jack
    Mass.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: questions again.... 181ci 4cyl timing problem....

    Quote Originally Posted by centerline View Post
    as Ive mentioned before (in another thread) I suspected there may have been an internal problem.... so I removed the engine and took it down to inspect and make sure the rotatating assembly was all indexed correctly, individual components as well as together after they were all assembled again...

    I have had the distributor spun and it is getting 23 degrees of advance built into it.... too much with a base of 8 degrees, plus 23 degrees gives me the 31 degrees all in im seeing.... somebody had it set up wrong when the PO installed it in the "new motor"... which is obviously why he couldnt get it to run right.
    ........................
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    Last edited by kghost; 03-20-2020 at 05:21 PM.
    Jack
    Mass.

  22. #22
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    Northboro, Ma, USA
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    Default Re: questions again.... 181ci 4cyl timing problem....

    My post got screwed up so here is the text part

    My original post of tune up spec data was incorrect Sorry, The specs were for a Prestolite Distributor for 1990-1997 140 4 cyl engines (manual 13 )

    The 4 cylinder Delco distributor is a very simple design. As simple as it gets.

    Your DELCO distributor is set up correct as the pictures in previous post show. That is from The Manual 10 - Engines GM 4 Cylinder All 1985–1989
    NOTE: Initial advance is NOT 8* BTDC. The manual says 6*BTDC and it is safe to use 4*

    So you need to decide which is the correct distributor for you engine parts combo if not original DELCO OR PRESTOLITE as there is a difference.

    The way to change max advance is the weights. Not sure where to find different ones as ALL Delco distributors for Merc Marine 4 cylinders use the same weights.
    The springs set the rate/RPM at which it gets there. Even the 170/190 470 merc 4 cylinder delco distributor weights and springs, are all the same.

    So if those were changed you need to acquire an different weight set and the springs.





    Where was this info from the PCR moron??????
    He posts only to impress not to solve problem or share product specific information as usual.............

    Who gives a F about seeing a Sun distributor machine?
    99.999999999% of the people posting here dont know, dont care and will NEVER need to care..............

    WTF
    Last edited by kghost; 03-20-2020 at 05:36 PM.
    Jack
    Mass.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: questions again.... 181ci 4cyl timing problem....

    Here is the comparison You may be running the wrong plugs so be sure what heads you have and what plugs are required. If the LTS plugs then a Prestolite Distributor should be used.

    1985-1989 181 cu inch 3.0L Delco Distributor
    Spark plug or equivalent AC-MR43T .035" gap


    1990-1997 181 3.0 and 3.0 LX
    Both use Prestolite Distributor

    3.0 Spark plug
    AC-MR43T Gap .035"

    3.0LX Spark Plug
    AC-MR43LTS Gap .035"

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by kghost; 03-20-2020 at 05:57 PM.
    Jack
    Mass.

  24. #24
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    Portland, Oregon,
    Posts
    11,881

    Default Re: questions again.... 181ci 4cyl timing problem....

    .....................

    Your DELCO distributor is set up correct as the pictures in previous post show. That is from The Manual 10 - Engines GM 4 Cylinder All 19851989
    NOTE: Initial advance is NOT 8* BTDC. The manual says 6*BTDC and it is safe to use 4*
    Regarding a mechanically advancing ignition system, most any well seasoned mechanic knows that a change to BASE or Initial advance, causes the same exact change to the TA, and visa versa, and also knows that Total Advance is far more important over that of BASE or Initial.

    So you need to decide which is the correct distributor for you engine parts combo if not original DELCO OR PRESTOLITE as there is a difference.

    The way to change max advance is the weights.
    These are flyweights.
    The MAX advance can be changed by either:
    ....adjusting the position of the housing and letting BASE be what it is.
    ....installing different flyweights.
    ....or in some cases, by adjusting the flyweight limiters.


    Not sure where to find different ones as ALL Delco distributors for Merc Marine 4 cylinders use the same weights.
    The springs set the rate/RPM at which it gets there.
    Not only the springs, but also the profile of the flyweight cams.

    Even the 170/190 470 merc 4 cylinder delco distributor weights and springs, are all the same.

    So if those were changed you need to acquire an different weight set and the springs.
    And that is where the Sun, Allen and/or King machine comes into play.



    Click image for larger version. 

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    Regarding the above ignition advance info, and considering the year model differences, please explain how the same basic 4 cylinder GM engine can be given two entirely and drastically different total advance numbers at the respective "full in" RPM!

    In the first example (left side), the engine is given 24* @ 4,100 RPM.
    In the second example (right side), the engine is given 35* @ 2,000 RPM.



    Last edited by RicardoMarine; 03-21-2020 at 07:37 AM.
    Rick ... aka Ricardo..... AQ series Volvo Penta repair
    Portland, Oregon
    28' SDN F/B w/ twin Volvo Penta 5.7L DP drives

    "Intellectual growth should commence at birth and cease only at death." Albert Einstein

    Please... no PMs! Post your questions on the forum.

  25. #25
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    Default Re: questions again.... 181ci 4cyl timing problem....

    ""




    Regarding the above ignition advance info, and considering the year model differences, please explain how the same basic 4 cylinder GM engine can be given two entirely and drastically different total advance numbers at the respective "full in" RPM!

    In the first example (left side), the engine is given 24* @ 4,100 RPM.
    In the second example (right side), the engine is given 35* @ 2,000 RPM. ""


    Well your so F'n Smart why don't you use your Vast Mercruiser expertise and answer this yourself?

    If you actually knew anything about Mercruiser you wouldn't have to ask such a pathetic question.................

    This is exactly why you should stay away from this forum. You add Nothing but JUNK, SPEW and wasted posts that only confuse.
    The truth is exposed once again...........


    Last edited by kghost; 03-21-2020 at 07:33 AM.
    Jack
    Mass.

  26. #26
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
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    Posts
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    Default Re: questions again.... 181ci 4cyl timing problem....

    """Your DELCO distributor is set up correct as the pictures in previous post show. That is from The Manual 10 - Engines GM 4 Cylinder All 1985–1989
    NOTE: Initial advance is NOT 8* BTDC. The manual says 6*BTDC and it is safe to use 4*
    Regarding a mechanically advancing ignition system, most any well seasoned mechanic knows that a change to BASE or Initial advance, causes the same exact change to the TA, and visa versa, and also knows that Total Advance is far more important over that of BASE or Initial.

    REALLY? And you, as we all know is the useless idiot who is a "well seasoned mekanic"?
    Absolutely USELESS

    So you need to decide which is the correct distributor for you engine parts combo if not original DELCO OR PRESTOLITE as there is a difference.

    The way to change max advance is the weights.
    These are flyweights. REALLY? And you, as we all know is the useless idiot who knows this?

    The MAX advance can be changed by either:
    ....adjusting the position of the housing and letting BASE be what it is.


    ....installing different flyweights.
    ....or in some cases, by adjusting the flyweight limiters.

    You are 100% wrong here.
    OEM does not allow for this. We are not speaking to modified/NON OEM systems......STAY AWAY, INFO IS USELESS



    Not sure where to find different ones as ALL Delco distributors for Merc Marine 4 cylinders use the same weights.
    The springs set the rate/RPM at which it gets there.
    Not only the springs, but also the profile of the flyweight cams.
    You are 100% wrong here.
    OEM does not allow for this. We are not speaking to modified/NON OEM systems......STAY AWAY, INFO IS USELESS


    Even the 170/190 470 merc 4 cylinder delco distributor weights and springs, are all the same.

    So if those were changed you need to acquire an different weight set and the springs.
    And that is where the Sun, Allen and/or King machine comes into play."""

    You are 100% wrong here.
    OEM does not allow for this. We are not speaking to modified/NON OEM systems......STAY AWAY, INFO IS USELESS

    Last edited by kghost; 03-21-2020 at 07:52 AM.
    Jack
    Mass.

  27. #27

    Default Re: questions again.... 181ci 4cyl timing problem....

    centerline - I apologize that your thread has been driven off the rails.

    Ricardo - We've had more complaints about the content of your posts than anyone ever. Nobody has "reported" more posts for the purpose of complaining about other members than you. Nobody has sent more direct emails complaining about other members than you. Are you seeing the common thread here? Take it down a BIG notch, or take a vacation from the forum. I can help with that if necessary. Get my drift?

    Everyone esle - This thread goes back to centerline and the real topic at hand. Thanks for helping him out with his engine.
    James Cole
    MarineEngine.com
    [email protected]

  28. #28
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    DC Burbs/Maryland Eastern Shore
    Posts
    1,779

    Default Re: questions again.... 181ci 4cyl timing problem....

    Slow clap.
    Practicing the ancient art of ren-ching

  29. #29
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
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    Jersey Shore
    Posts
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    Default Re: questions again.... 181ci 4cyl timing problem....

    Quote Originally Posted by o2batsea View Post
    Slow clap.
    Now that is funny.
    Chris
    Dockside Marine Services
    Jersey Shore.
    Mercruiser/Mercury Certified
    Let the insanity begin.

  30. #30

    Default Re: questions again.... 181ci 4cyl timing problem....

    So, after all the RMBS, what did you work out for the distributor advance?

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