EST distributor problem?.. no timing advance or shift assist

A couple of thoughts -

you mention above “ fifth... I get 12 degrees total at idle “ this is what you should get per merc manual ...does it advance to 22-26 degrees goal by 3 k rpm now? The 12 degrees total looks to me like it is doing what it should except for going into base / maint mode.

Since you are maintaining power to the white while trying to put in base/maint mode- what voltage do you have at idle? Is it possible to due to battery or alternator condition at idle ( or below the 1800 rpm you mention) you have lower voltage and that is what is kicking it out of base / maint mode? Had an issue on an older boat where at idle alternator wouldn’t kick off enough volts to open the choke consistently, maybe similar??

bottom line if you replace the distributor if you run out of options just get an OEM of what’s there no need to reinvent the wheel- delco est distributors are like $220, whole intimation kits is like $350 , assume this is what you have no?

We now rely on the electronics and the algorithm of the EST system to dictate just how much or how little spark lead our engines see.
Keep in mind that this is all done via progressively delaying a more aggressive fixed ignition advance.
The electronics provide the delay.
If all is working as it should, it is a good system.


With a mechanical system, average Joe can actually perform trouble-shooting, easy testing, adjustments, etc.

I will still suggest returning that EST system and picking up the mechanical system as shown to you in post #21.

Install..... set BASE advance..... increase RPM as to look at the progressive and the total..... adjust further if need be..... DONE!


.

centerline said:

tomorrow I will recheck everything to make sure im seeing the same as I seen last week when I was able to get it into service mode, and if it looks the same, we will go to the lake....
on the plus side, it sure does start and idle nice now... cold or warm, when the key makes contact, the engine jumps to life without hesitation...

Click to expand...

seems like it is running better, he has correct total advance at or off idle, just needs to confirm total advance at 3 k or so then he’s done... why would he rip this out to put a non OEM ( for this engine) mechanical advance system on?

Dieter said:

A couple of thoughts -

you mention above “ fifth... I get 12 degrees total at idle “ this is what you should get per merc manual ...does it advance to 22-26 degrees goal by 3 k rpm now? The 12 degrees total looks to me like it is doing what it should except for going into base / maint mode.

Since you are maintaining power to the white while trying to put in base/maint mode- what voltage do you have at idle? Is it possible to due to battery or alternator condition at idle ( or below the 1800 rpm you mention) you have lower voltage and that is what is kicking it out of base / maint mode? Had an issue on an older boat where at idle alternator wouldn’t kick off enough volts to open the choke consistently, maybe similar??

bottom line if you replace the distributor if you run out of options just get an OEM of what’s there no need to reinvent the wheel- delco est distributors are like $220, whole intimation kits is like $350 , assume this is what you have no?

Click to expand...

I dont power up any of the white wires, as these are the service mode wires... after the white wires are connected together, I then apply power to the black wire to power up the service mode.
I have checked voltages everywhere that it may make a difference, and it is holding steady at 13.6 everywhere, even at a very low idle....

as I mentioned previously, it wont go into service mode unless the engine is running around 1800rpm.... so, after setting the base timing (running at 1800rpm) to 1btdc, when I disconnect the power from the black wire the timing jumps to 8btdc....(at this time I remove the service plug from the distributor)....THEN, when I lower the rpm to 700, the timing (as seen by the timing light) will jump back and forth between 8 and 4 btdc....when I increase the throttle a little, it settles at 8btdc.... when I increase the throttle more, it will only go to 12btdc... no further. I NEVER see more than 12btdc at ANY rpm....

I have not gotten around to rechecking it after I got it to slip into service mode and set it.... my only concern is if it can be set correctly while running at 1800rpm....

it had a mechanical distributor in it.... if you read this thread from the beginning, you will see why I bought the est distributor (looks like the one shown in the merc manuals)

and another thing im wondering is, which manual are you seeing the "12 degrees at idle, as per merc manual"?, which kghost mentioned also..... ive seen 2 manuals telling how to set the distributor base timing, but nothing going in to detail as to what I should see after its set, and very little else about the 4 cylinder engine. in the manuals ive seen, it obvious they put more effort into the directions for the 6 and 8 cylinder engines than they did the L4.... I got some information, but not as much as others are seeing in their manual.

RicardoMarine said:

We now rely on the electronics and the algorithm of the EST system to dictate just how much or how little spark lead our engines see.
Keep in mind that this is all done via progressively delaying a more aggressive fixed ignition advance.
The electronics provide the delay.
If all is working as it should, it is a good system.


With a mechanical system, average Joe can actually perform trouble-shooting, easy testing, adjustments, etc.

I will still suggest returning that EST system and picking up the mechanical system as shown to you in post #21.

Install..... set BASE advance..... increase RPM as to look at the progressive and the total..... adjust further if need be..... DONE!


.

Click to expand...

im getting closer to making that decision, but not quite yet...

centerline said:

I dont power up any of the white wires, as these are the service mode wires... after the white wires are connected together, I then apply power to the black wire to power up the service mode.
I have checked voltages everywhere that it may make a difference, and it is holding steady at 13.6 everywhere, even at a very low idle....

as I mentioned previously, it wont go into service mode unless the engine is running around 1800rpm.... so, after setting the base timing (running at 1800rpm) to 1btdc, when I disconnect the power from the black wire the timing jumps to 8btdc....(at this time I remove the service plug from the distributor)....THEN, when I lower the rpm to 700, the timing (as seen by the timing light) will jump back and forth between 8 and 4 btdc....when I increase the throttle a little, it settles at 8btdc.... when I increase the throttle more, it will only go to 12btdc... no further. I NEVER see more than 12btdc at ANY rpm....

I have not gotten around to rechecking it after I got it to slip into service mode and set it.... my only concern is if it can be set correctly while running at 1800rpm....

it had a mechanical distributor in it.... if you read this thread from the beginning, you will see why I bought the est distributor (looks like the one shown in the merc manuals)

and another thing im wondering is, which manual are you seeing the "12 degrees at idle, as per merc manual"?, which kghost mentioned also..... ive seen 2 manuals telling how to set the distributor base timing, but nothing going in to detail as to what I should see after its set, and very little else about the 4 cylinder engine. in the manuals ive seen, it obvious they put more effort into the directions for the 6 and 8 cylinder engines than they did the L4.... I got some information, but not as much as others are seeing in their manual.

Click to expand...

mercruiser manual 26. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1YH_CDBAIW7OER9QeFY_M5GrtZKWxSQNP/view

pages 4b-9 thru 12 have these advance numbers listed. Also shows disconnecting and bypassing the shift interrupt to put in base mode but maybe that’s just to get 12 v supplied? That just stuck out as different vs what was discussed here , maybe it’s no different than you’ve done already.

May have missed this in the thread - have you tried setting it (in run mode not base locked ) to 23-25 total advance at 2500 rpms or so? This may be a workaround to just set the total advance , base should be correct then.

Dieter said:

mercruiser manual 26. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1YH_CDBAIW7OER9QeFY_M5GrtZKWxSQNP/view pages 4b-9 thru 12

May have missed this in the thread - have you tried setting it (in run mode not base locked ) to 23-25 total advance at 2500 rpms or so? This may be a workaround to just set the total advance , base should be correct then.

Click to expand...

thanks, I will look at the manual.....
with the other module in it I have tried setting it by total advance of 25 while running at 3000rpm, but when it idles down, it stayed at 25btdc, and wouldnt drop back.... I have not tried it with the new module.

centerline said:

I believe I am having a problem with my new distributor...

in my previous thread titled "older 4 cyl mercruiser identification", I had some great information to help me find out what this engine is, and then I outlined the problem I was having with the engine timing.
after double checking with the suggestions I received without finding the cause, I went into the engine to check the gears and cam for proper indexing.

I found the cam it was built with to be a re-ground cam, which normally shouldnt be a problem, and I dont know if this re-grind had anything at all to do with the cause of the problem, but as I had it apart, I purchased a new marine cam and lifters install in the engine, and then indexed it to insure it was correct.
then installed the engine back in the boat.

the other change that was made was to purchase an EST distributor to replace the old "points" distributor, as I questioned the mechanical advance curve that was in the old one... and now it seems to run great. it starts easy, it idles smooth and has great throttle response ( I havent taken it to the lake yet)....

but as im attempting to time the distributor according to the instructions in the manual (I believe im following the procedure correctly) there is no change happening when the white wires are connected vs disconnected from each other (neither in sound or timing marks) which, following the directions should allow me to time it at 1degree BTDC, and then after disconnecting the 2 white wires, it should automaticallyu advance itself to about 8BTDC.... and be good to go (after readjusting the carb)...

nothing happens whatsoever by connecting or disconnecting the white wires, or unplugging the timing device from the the distributor...

when power is applied to the black wire, and the white wires become disconnected, the engine dies, which I know is normal (black wire goes to shift assist circuit after modifying the shift assist circuit with battery + power)

does anyone have any suggestions as to where to problem may be with getting the timing to set correctly, either in my procedure or with the EST system?.... Thank you

Click to expand...

I am currently having problems with these EST systems in my Chevy V8 , finally I have connected my scope on the primary of the coil and I could clearly see what is going bad ; even a new Standart LX340T iginition module was not working properly , what happenend is at idle I had erratic missfiring , new plugs new distributor cap , new rotor , under power there was no problem at all , but back to idling the missfires started again and went worse as the engine warmed up , so cold start no problems perfect , warming up missfires started to happen , It all pointed to the EST ignition amplifier , and yes the old GM unit with a yellow painted dot on top works perfect , no problem , other brands , a no name unit and a brandnew Standard LX340T gave me strange patterns on the scope . so far the missfire problem , then about the switching to advance / the inbuild system can switch to advance above a certain rpm rate pulses , but the command in a Chevy to do so comes via AN INTERUPTING wiring connection B on the 4 pins connector and in this case is 5 VOLTS not 12 Volts ! the B connector is the bypass for the EST advance system . Another remark is the minus V ( earth / mass ) connection , wich is via the four pin connector on pin A and not via the screws that fit the Ignition amp to the distrubutor
the whole system is clearly explained on youtube : one more remark : this ignition unit can be used with a computer ECM like in CHEVY and other GM (90's )to adjust the advance aswell forward as reversed : advanced or retarded this via the ECM signals input from the MAP ( vacuum adapter) advanced or the knocksensor unit to retard iginition then the computer uses the Distributors reference signal from PIN C on the ignition unit and corrects the timing via pin D input on the Ignition unit
One more hint ; do NOT USE the silicon grease that is delivered originally with the ignition blocks but use COMPUTER THERMAL CONDUCTING PASTE that is used for heattransfer from PC processors , this white stuff with aluminium oxide or silver works !
These iginition unit amplifiers go bad from HEAT .. from bad plugwires and bad plugs in the engines and most of all from condensation in the Distributor , provoking electric shorts , also from bad coils , shorted or open secondary , it is a common problem with Chevy cars , so I suppose also with boats .

This about the GM ignition modules , I did not know they were also used for boat engines and I find it strange that they have an inbuild advancing system from standard , depending on the RPM rate without being corrected from the ecu car computer , but apperently all these 8 pins units seem to be used for the same purpose , What is more strange is that for boats the switching voltage on pin 'B' used is 12 Volts ( to adjust the iginition timing ) and for cars this is done with 5 Volts ... anyway these modules seem to be prone to lots of faulty results , aswell in missfires as in timing faults . only Scope connected to switching pin on the primary of the coil tells us what's happening .