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If you lose the u joint bellows does sea water contaminate the drive?

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Fishmaster23

Regular Contributor
I had a ujoint bellows slip off on my boat and it's my understanding that it destroys the u joints and the pds bearings, but what about the drive itself? Does water get into that upper transmission assembly also?

The bought is at the shop and I'm actually doing a total repower on it. I bought a new fuel injected engine for it and bought a resealed dp-a drive that's been gone through to have installed.

My boat has the aq271c gm350 and dp-a Volvo drive.
 
Isn't there an oring that keeps the water out of the upper drive? Something in the drive seized up so I'm trying to figure out what. I'm guessing pds bearings because it seizes after about 25 minutes of run time. Then after it cools down it frees up.
 
I’ll post to this in the morning.

Meanwhile;
Can you post a picture of the drive, in particular the transmission area?
How long ago did this occur?
How many hours has it been operated this way?
Have you drained the gear oil to check for water?
Is this new engine set up correctly for marine use?


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I bought the boat about a year ago and noticed after the second use that the Ujoint bellows had slipped off, so I put it back on and tightened the clamp like that. Then ran it for about a year, maybe 15-20hrs of use and it ran fine, until one day it started making a loud random popping/cracking sound periodically. I then took it out another time and it didn't do it, but then on the third outing, these are short outings, maybe 40 minutes each it seemed like something was trying to bind up, and it would still the engine if you got close to idle rpm. Also the engine would stall if you put it in gear. So I said the heck with this 30 year old engine and ordered a new fuel injected engine and bought a new DP-A outdrive that had been taken apart, inspected, then resealed.

I knew that with the pds bearings the engine had to come out, so I decided to order this new engine and have it installed by a shop. I'm just curious as to what possibly went wrong. I didn't want to pay to have the old outdrive torn down, I just bought a rebuilt one. The shop hasn't taken the old outdrive off yet, they're waiting for the new engine. It's finally showing up at the shop tomorrow. As far as how did the oil look? It looked relatively new. It was green, so it still had whatever color dye they used. This was before it had the seizing issue. I guess since their was no evidence of water intrustion in the gear oil it didn't get into the drive even though the bellows slipped off. I'm thinking it's the pds bearings that are seizing, not something in the outdrive.
 
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Fishmaster23 said:
I bought the boat about a year ago and noticed after the second use that the Ujoint bellows had slipped off, so I put it back on and tightened the clamp like that.
FYI.... the correct bellows incorporates a bead at the interior of both ends.
The bead fits into a grove at both the flywheel cover snout, and on the FWD collar of the transmission.

Then ran it for about a year, maybe 15-20hrs of use and it ran fine, until one day it started making a loud random popping/cracking sound periodically.
Hard to tell from the keyboard here..... could this be the AFT PDS bearing that is going out?


I then took it out another time and it didn't do it, but then on the third outing, these are short outings, maybe 40 minutes each it seemed like something was trying to bind up, and it would still the engine if you got close to idle rpm.
Stall?

Also the engine would stall if you put it in gear. So I said the heck with this 30 year old engine and ordered a new fuel injected engine and bought a new DP-A outdrive that had been taken apart, inspected, then resealed.
Was the bellows issue corrected when this new DP-A was installed?
Were new PDS bearings installed at this time?

I knew that with the pds bearings the engine had to come out, so I decided to order this new engine and have it installed by a shop.
Very important regarding new PDS bearings:
The flywheel cover grease cavity must be cleaned of all old grease.
After the PDS and new bearings have been installed, the cavity must be Pre-Filled with grease (while spinning the PDS) prior to the seals being installed.
When grease is seen exiting through the ball cage, that is when the new seals are installed.
AFT seal installs in the non-conventional direction.


I'm just curious as to what possibly went wrong. I didn't want to pay to have the old outdrive torn down, I just bought a rebuilt one.
FYI..... your aq271c gm 350 engine requires the 1.95:1 reduction.
No other reduction will work correctly with this engine!

The shop hasn't taken the old outdrive off yet, they're waiting for the new engine. It's finally showing up at the shop tomorrow. As far as how did the oil look? It looked relatively new. It was green, so it still had whatever color dye they used. This was before it had the seizing issue. I guess since their was no evidence of water intrustion in the gear oil it didn't get into the drive even though the bellows slipped off. I'm thinking it's the pds bearings that are seizing, not something in the outdrive.

FYI again regarding a bellows leak, the transmission and water:
When the AQ series drive shaft bellows fails, water enters the area.
This water reaches and rusts the carbon steel seal surface washer on the main drive gear.
As the rust builds, it becomes abrasive.
The abrasion cuts away at the seal lip.
The seal starts to allow water to enter the transmission.
Click to expand...
 
Fishmaster23 said:
I bought the boat about a year ago and .....As far as how did the oil look? It looked relatively new. It was green, so it still had whatever color dye they used. This was before it had the seizing issue. I guess since their was no evidence of water intrustion in the gear oil it didn't get into the drive even though the bellows slipped off. I'm thinking it's the pds bearings that are seizing, not something in the outdrive.
Click to expand...

Green oil??? Hypoid 90 is green...
 
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Fishmaster23 said:
....... I'm thinking it's the pds bearings that are seizing, not something in the out drive.
Click to expand...

With enough water in this area to have washed the grease from the AFT most PDS bearing, the bearing will typically:

..... start spinning the outer race within the flywheel cover's aluminum bore.
..... self destruct, rather than to seize up.


I have replaced more of these than I can recall.

Short of water intrusion, common reasons for PDS bearing failure:

..... tech used sealed bearings in lieu of open bearings in the double bearing PDS application.
..... tech used an open bearing in a single sealed bearing PDS (w/ pilot nose) application.
..... owner failed to routinely lubricate the double bearing PDS, or failed to lube them with the engine operating at idle RPM.
..... tech failed to Pre-Fill grease cavity on a double bearing PDS application.
..... Chinese bearings in lieu of Japanese, German or US made bearings.
..... extended service without replacement.


When serviced routinely, the open and serviceable PDS bearings can go for 10+ years.... or roughly 1,500+ hours.
Sealed (non-serviceable) PDS bearings can go for approx 300 to 500 hours.


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So what else could it be that takes 20 minutes to start seizing up? I had someone say the trim sensor can go bad causing this issue, but that didn't really make sense.
 
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Fishmaster23 said:
So what else could it be that takes 20 minutes to start seizing up?
Regarding the actual AQ series stern drive, with limited info and from a key board only, I would not be able to tell you.
Generally, when things begin to cause excessive friction or seizing, the gears/bearings by now on their way out.

I had someone say the trim sensor can go bad causing this issue, but that didn't really make sense.
That makes no sense to me either.
Click to expand...
 
This is why I bought a drive that had been torn down inspected then resealed. I didn't want to pay someone to tear it down only to tell me the drive is ****ed.
 
Fishmaster23 said:
This is why I bought a drive that had been torn down inspected then resealed. I didn't want to pay someone to tear it down only to tell me the drive is ****ed.
Click to expand...

If you still suspect that the drive is bad, may I ask you who did the work, and how many years of AQ series experience does that person have under his belt?
 
Must be a bearing in the transmission going bad or something. Last time I ran it it sounded like something was rattling around in there when i put my hand on the top cover.
 
Someone online recommended him. I'd rather not say the name, but he rebuilt his drive and all seems well and seemed knowledgeable about the aq series on the phone. Unfortunately it's hard to find someone who knows about these drives in tx. You just don't see these older drives like you do on the east coast.
 
I probably could have sent the old one off to you, but I think I had already bought the drive before running into you on this forum. In fact I may still do that.
 
Fishmaster23 said:
Must be a bearing in the transmission going bad or something. Last time I ran it it sounded like something was rattling around in there when i put my hand on the top cover.
Click to expand...


For the cost of 1 loop gasket, you can safely remove the top cover and examine the upper bearing. Keep track of the shims!
For the cost of a shift mechanism housing O-ring, you can remove the shift mechanism and inspect the gears.

Fishmaster23 said:
Someone online recommended him.
1.... I'd rather not say the name, but he rebuilt his drive and all seems well and seemed knowledgeable about the aq series on the phone. Unfortunately it's hard to find someone who knows about these drives in tx.
2.... You just don't see these older drives like you do on the east coast.
Click to expand...

1..... On occasion, not mentioning a name does a disservice to those who may end up using a shop who is not quite up to speed on a certain component/drive!
Your call on that!

2..... I may not be following you on that one.
My experience is that the AQ series doesn't have a big presence on the the east coast, and that the east coast shops do not want to work on the AQ series.


Fishmaster23 said:
I probably could have sent the old one off to you, but I think I had already bought the drive before running into you on this forum. In fact I may still do that.
Click to expand...

As of about 6 years, I have retired from doing the AQ series work. Prior to that, I have received quite a few of these from the east coast (or other areas) where it has been tough to find a shop who is willing and experienced enough to work on these.
In truth, these are among the easiest to work on!



Meanwhile, are you able to post some good and descriptive pictures here?



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Right now they're working on getting the tilt pins out. Apparently they've broken three bolts.off trying to pull them out to get the drive off. I told them why not pound them out the other way. He said the helmet was in the way. I didn't think to say why not turn it to one side? I believe that turns with the outdrive.
 
These guys DO NOT have AQ series experience!

I would stop them and either find another shop, or get in touch with me so that I can explain to you how this is done!


First off:
.....you must have the keeper bolts out.
.....you must apply heat to the hinge pin bosses.
.....you must NOT drive against them with anything harder than an Italian bread stick.

Lastly, why are they removing the entire drive????
What are they wanting to do?




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As far as inspecting it? I'll probably tear into it at some point and see what the deal is. I agree with you these drives aren't that complicated. Although I would probably need a good set of micrometers to measure the backlash and all that. Along with brushing up my skills on how to read them.
 
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Fishmaster23 said:
As far as inspecting it? I'll probably tear into it at some point and see what the deal is. I agree with you these drives aren't that complicated. Although I would probably need a good set of micrometers to measure the backlash and all that. Along with brushing up my skills on how to read them.
Click to expand...

Fishmaster23 said:
What are they doing wrong with it?
Click to expand...

They are very likely not taking the correct approach at removing the suspension fork hinge pins.
See my last post!
If these pins are driven against with a hard steel punch, they will expand, and you will play HELL getting them out!

Question: Why are they wanting to remove the hinge pins?

When we do work on transmissions or lower gear units, we typically remove them from the Intermediate housing, leaving the Intermediate housing still attached to the transom shield.

Only when suspension fork, reverse latch bearing sleeve, pivot tube removal, or the hinge pin bushings require replacement, do we remove the hinge pins.

If you'd like to have a phone conversation, shoot me a PM with your contact number and the best time.
 
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Pounding them out the other side of the transom shield was my suggestion. lol Good thing they didn't follow that. Remember I said I bought a whole new drive to have installed? It's a DP-A with the reverse latch assembly. The new DP-A drive came with that whole assembly.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_5Lw8ZWgc8

They're doing the same thing as this guy in this video. Although I didn't notice whether or not they had the drive supported like he does. Don't those pins pretty much hold all the weight of the drive and attach it to the boat? I hope they aren't trying to pull the pins out with 200 pounds resting on them.
 
When I said they keep breaking bolts off I meant they keep breaking their threaded tool off inside the pin and they have to either drill it out or extract it.
 
Fishmaster23 said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_5Lw8ZWgc8

They're doing the same thing as this guy in this video. Although I didn't notice whether or not they had the drive supported like he does. Don't those pins pretty much hold all the weight of the drive and attach it to the boat?
Yes they do support the weight of drive.
And yes, they do attach the drive to the "transom shield". I hope they aren't trying to pull the pins out with 200 pounds resting on them.
Yes, it would be better to support the weight of the drive as shown in the video.
However, the pins would still come out.
Click to expand...

While he did a nice video, the guy is a DIYr, and is removing an entire drive at one time.

An AQ series experienced person would have drained the gear oil and then removed the transmission first.
He would then have much better and open access to the water neck fitting S hose, the shift cable attaching bracket, the suspension fork hinge pins, etc., not to mention that the remaining components would be much lighter!

Now if need be, he would continue to remove the hinge pins and remove the suspension fork/Intermediate housing/lower unit as an assembly.

When going back together, he would do the reverse of this....... i.e., install the suspension fork/Intermediate housing/lower unit as an assembly, and the transmission last!



Fishmaster23 said:
When I said they keep breaking bolts off I meant they keep breaking their threaded tool off inside the pin and they have to either drill it out or extract it.
Click to expand...

Yes, I understood that!

Was he using heat to gently expand the aluminum pin bosses? (the bosses that are part of the transom shield)
Was he attempting to move the pins in either direction, as to help free them up?
If he drove against the pins, what type of material (i.e., punch) was he using? (never use steel.... always use a brass or an aluminum punch)



Please note that I'm in your corner.
I don't want to see you paying for unnecessary shop time.... nor for someone's mistake!

FYI.... I performed AQ series work for over 24 years.
I've seen how an in-experience person, or an in-experienced shop can mess things up and cost the owner more money than necessary.



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Yeah they said they used a little bit of heat. I don't think they've hammered the pins at all yet. Now that I think about it I do think they said it looked like someone previuosly had already hammered the pins to get them in there and mushroomed them out a little bit. I think that was actually the issue. Sorry I tend to remember the important bits and pieces of a conversation later on. It was either mushroomed out or the pins were in there cockeyed and giving them trouble.

I see what you're saying and I appreciate the advice. I just hope the the rest of the job goes smoother than this part.
 
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Fishmaster23 said:
Yeah they said they used a little bit of heat.
Good. The heat should be from a small propane or mapp gas torch..... not from Oxy/Acet.
Oxy/Acet is too hot, and if the flame is Oxy rich, it may damage the aluminum.

I don't think they've hammered the pins at all yet. Now that I think about it I do think they said it looked like someone had previously already hammered the pins to get them in there and mushroomed them out a little bit. I think that was actually the issue.
Sorry I tend to remember the important bits and pieces of a conversation later on.
Hey, it gets worse as you get older..... trust me on that one! It was either mushroomed out or the pins were in there cockeyed and giving them trouble.
Understood. I have removed them after someone else had made an ill attempt at it. Not fun!

I see what you're saying and I appreciate the advice. I just hope the the rest of the job goes smoother than this part.
You are welcome..... and I hope that it goes smoother also!
Slow and steady wins this type of race!
Click to expand...



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