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For Antifreeze: Muffs OK or Directly Connect to Suction Side of Raw Water Pump ??

tedchmura

New member
GREETINGS !!

The instructions for the Camco "do it yourself" Winterizer Kit says that "the Muffs method is good for drives that have the raw water pump mounted INSIDE the outdrive - but that for "Front Engine Mounted Raw Water Pumps" - I should get an adapter and directly connect the Antifreeze supply to the suction side of the pump."

I have a Volvo Penta 3.0 - pictured here. I'm assuming that it's a Front Engine Mounted Raw Water Pump.

My question is...is it acceptable to get the Antifreeze in using the Muffs method? Or should I really be getting that Adapter and making the direct connection?

Thank you so much in advance !!!

Ted
 
I'm agreeing 100% with Rick here...because if the thermostat does not open all the way....and you have not drained the block first...then you can have raw water in the block...AF in the exhaust and a cracked block come spring. Manually drain, poke the holes with a pick or thin screwdriver to make sure it drains..... you can add AF if you want after that but just draining and poking the holes is really all you need to do. Mercruiser says to add AF, for corrosion protection. I have been doing this for years, not sure if it helped my engine last as long as it has but maybe so....in salt water we need all the help we can get with respect to corrosion.

The only time you can use those kits, is with closed cooling...but if the impeller does not suck in the AF via gravity flow ...that alone can cause a problem...if I were going to do that...I'd use a live well pump to pressurize the flow of AF....
 
Unless you drain everything FIRST, there is no way to insure your not diluting the AF with the water in the block or manifold. Remove the manifold plug on the bottom, probe and insure draining. Pull the block plug just under it ,probe to insure block draining. Remove the 2 hoses on the pump, drain and reattach.
Now use that system if you wish. Now your left with the fogging dilema.
Or you could flush, fog, drain and pour the AF into the motor and manifolds if desired thru the hoses.
 
1..... Unless you drain everything FIRST, there is no way to insure you're not diluting the AF with the water in the block or manifold.
2..... Remove the manifold plug on the bottom, probe and insure draining. Pull the block plug just under it, probe to insure block draining. Remove the 2 hoses on the pump, drain and reattach.
3..... Now use that system if you wish.
4..... Now you're left with the fogging delima.
5..... Or you could flush, fog, drain and pour the AF into the engine and manifolds if desired thru the hoses.



My two cents on the topic:

1.... That is true! However, the primary reason for my Amazon write-up pertains to a common misunderstanding regarding the role of the T-stat housing and thermostat in the raw water cooled engine!
Understand that only a small portion of the seawater (AF at this point) is used for actual engine cooling demands (especially during a "no load" scenario).
Most of it (AF at this point) is being sent out the exhaust system.
Also note that it doesn't take very long to go through 5 gallons of AF when using the Camco, Star-Brite or West Marine kits.
Then average Joe owner sees AF leaving the exhaust system, and mistake-ably thinks that all is OK!
Come Spring Time (after a severe freeze), average Joe sadly learns otherwise!

2.... Ed, I fully agree with you on that one!

3.... And with caution!

4.... A bit off topic.... when you fog a carbureted engine, have a helper hold the throttle at approx 1,200 RPM.
You will spray the fogging solution equally into both primary throttle bores.
Instead of letting the fogging oil kill the engine, have the helper shut off the ignition (while holding the same throttle position) as you continue to fog until the engine comes to rest.
Now you are left with a fogging oil mist in each cylinder that has NOT undergone any ignition source combustion!

Side note
: for a V-engine (V-6 or V-8) with a dual plane intake manifold, it is very important to introduce the fogging oil equally into each plane. If we miss one plane, we miss 1/2 of the cylinders!

5..... Agreed. But if you have any concerns, drain again afterwards as to avoid any unwanted dilution!
The small amount of potential rust (within the cooling jackets) is paled by comparison to that which occurs during the normal boating season!





For those of you who have purchased a Camco kit and now understand the risks involved (using it for a Raw Water cooled engine), I would suggest returning it and getting your money back.
Then place your order for one of my new improved 55 gallon raw water cooled engine winterizing kits:


camco replacement 55 gal kit.jpg


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Last edited:
First things first - thanks to each of you !!

It's so very clear now that draining the system is far superior to NOT draining the system. Since I have the AF on hand, I'll probably go ahead and add some in AFTER draining the system - I can't see how that could hurt anything and it sounds like there is potential benefit.

Thanks again - much appreciated !!

Ted - Ludlow, MA
 
Ted, the risk is dilution of the AF in the event of residual seawater.

Your call!

IMHO, if he has residual seawater he has trouble... adding antifreeze may mitigate the problem by lowering the freezing point of any residual seawater. I used the clear drain ports/drain engine/refill with anti freeze system for years ( 1964 to 1981) without issues, the next owner decided that draining was unnecessary and just did an antifreeze fill.... cracked block. End of a sweet, strong running, gas sipping, AQ110 (dual Zenith downdrafts).
 
Ted, the risk is dilution of the AF in the event of residual seawater.

Your call!

Rick - I'm looking to fully understand your last statement here. I indicated that I would add AF after draining
the system. You indicated there is risk in that the AF might be diluted with any residual seawater.

Let's say I did NOT add AF after draining, and there WAS residual seawater. That's obviously WORSE.

So I don't understand the risk of adding AF *AFTER* Draining the system.

Thanks !!

Ted
 
Rick - I'm looking to fully understand your last statement here. I indicated that I would add AF after draining
the system. You indicated there is risk in that the AF might be diluted with any residual seawater.

Let's say I did NOT add AF after draining, and there WAS residual seawater. That's obviously WORSE.
Yes, if the residual seawater was able to expand and push outwards enough on the cast iron.

So I don't understand the risk of adding AF *AFTER* Draining the system.
The Pink stuff ( i.e., RV antifreeze), does not like to be diluted and yet be expected to provide the freeze protection that we desire.

Thanks !!

Ted

Ted, I've been doing mechanical related work for a little over 52 years, 24 years of which was Volvo Penta AQ series Marine work.
I've seen the surprised look on the owner faces!
I've read the threads whereby an owner has used the Camco, Star-Brite and West Marine systems (on raw water cooled engines), only to learn that come spring time they have cracked cast iron components.

Bottom line....... it's your marine engine, do as you wish.
 
Rick - your credentials are outstanding and please know that I'm not pushing back on anything you've said. I want to do this the BEST way and am now trying to determine:

Is is best to DRAIN the system and "leave it dry"? Or is it even better to...
Drain the System and then add Antifreeze (NOT using the Camco Kit, but by directly pouring it into the hoses) as a possible additional measure of freeze/rust protection

Thanks so much !!

Ted
 
Rick - your credentials are outstanding and please know that I'm not pushing back on anything you've said. I want to do this the BEST way and am now trying to determine:

Is is best to DRAIN the system and "leave it dry"? Or is it even better to...
Drain the System and then add Antifreeze (NOT using the Camco Kit, but by directly pouring it into the hoses) as a possible additional measure of freeze/rust protection

Thanks so much !!

Ted

rick is still hung up on the camco system use... if you drain the water and prob drain ports to ensure no sediment is holding back water, you will be fine. Personally I drain (5 plugs on my engine), probe them with a wire to make sure they are clear, flush backwards to my drive with af, fill block some with af (both via hoses) and drain all ports again. My thinking is if any residual water or sediment with water (my dock is in a shallow sandy Cove) will get mixed with af by back filling for a little extra protection against some residual water. Again I drain all af after and leave plugs out over winter. Biggest issue for home mechanic is not properly draining and knowing it's properly drained by how much water comes out. This can be very difficult in boats where engine is below floor or there's a lot of boat around the engine. Few folks consider this when buying a boat....
 
1.... rick is still hung up on the camco system use... if you drain the water and prob drain ports to ensure no sediment is holding back water, you will be fine. Personally I drain (5 plugs on my engine), probe them with a wire to make sure they are clear, flush backwards to my drive with af, fill block some with af (both via hoses) and drain all ports again. My thinking is if any residual water or sediment with water (my dock is in a shallow sandy Cove) will get mixed with af by back filling for a little extra protection against some residual water.
2.....
Again I drain all af after and leave plugs out over winter. Biggest issue for home mechanic is not properly draining and knowing it's properly drained by how much water comes out. This can be very difficult in boats where engine is below floor or there's a lot of boat around the engine. Few folks consider this when buying a boat....

1..... Not quite sure why you would say "hung up", but yes, I do dislike the Camco kit due to the "Average Joe DIYers" who may not be experienced enough to understand the risks that these kits pose when used on a Raw Water Cooled engine!
I fully explain my reasons here;
https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/R3BD7X6QC3KCFR?ref=pf_vv_at_pdctrvw_srp

2.... I have strongly suggested doing this in my Amazon write-up.


Some members are apparently skimming through these threads without having fully read or comprehending the content. As a result, misunderstandings and conflicts shortly follow. This has recently occurred in a thread where both Dieter and I have participated.
It would benefit the forum if we were to all read the entire content (fully and comprehensively) before responding!







 
PS
If you drain and don’t backfill I’d coat the threads of the drain plugs with gasket sealer and reinstall after draining. Reason being raw cast iron will rust over the winter if you leave them out and then you have rust in the threads of your cast iron block and manifolds .
 
PS
If you drain and don’t backfill I’d coat the threads of the drain plugs with gasket sealer and reinstall after draining. Reason being raw cast iron will rust over the winter if you leave them out and then you have rust in the threads of your cast iron block and manifolds .
Correct there does seem to be some corrosion In drain holes, but in my experience this doesn’t happen enough to cause an issue. Perhaps if on a salt water environment vs fresh this may be more severe but nothing a tap couldn’t cure
 
Doesn't even have to be salt water, just moisture in the air over the winter. If you are in a damp climate they will for sure start to rust. Raw unprotected cast iron rusts fast when exposed to moisture and with humidity, and temperature changes, you get a lot of condensation on metal parts, unless stored inside. Warm air holds moisture, the temp drops and it all condenses on the cold metal surfaces.

coat the threads with OMC gasket sealer, Merc Perfect seal or Permatex Aviation and re-install. This way they won't rust and can't get lost.
 
I like to leave the plugs OUT. This way there's no question about the engine being drained when you light her up in the Spring. I've never had a problem getting the plugs back in, but I do give them a dab of Permatex.
 
For those who may be concerned about exposed cast iron female threads, you can use a brass or bronze Marine engine draincock with a removable stop.

With the stop removed, the open port leads directly into the water jacket, allowing us to probe the opening as to ensure that rust scale is not blocking all seawater from draining.
Once installed, only brass/bronze threads are subject to the elements.



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