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383 Inboard(V-Drive)build

"As for the comment regarding this build being book knowledge, Internet based info and wasted money...... who are we to tell Bracker how to proceed with his project and what to do with his money? "

This quote is just irresponsible.


BTW,
Performance build with customer specs and possibly supplied parts, Good luck with that warranty.
 
Is this the “Boat Repair Forum” or the “Dealer Referral Forum”? I politely explained my position.
Bracker I think you're missing the point Chris was making. If hassle free use vs working on the boat is your goal stick with an off the shelf setup, that has a warranty, and can be serviced by any reasonably qualified independent technician or dealer. If your passion is for the project and you don't mind working through some issues have fun with it. Chris's advice is really protecting his clientele in terms of fixing it once and fixing it right being worth money up front, which is the correct approach.

My only additional thought ought would be make sure what ever machinist you use is very familiar with this build. Seems a lot of posts like this where some one wants a custom hopped up engine, poster gets plenty of free advice (other people spending your money), tend to see a fair number of issues down the road where poster has to go back into engine and there is some type of mismatch or machining issue. This is not being a nay sayer, just reality of what you see on this and similar sites.

when i I did my repower 4 years ago, I went from thinking a hotter cam etc to just getting a new base engine, only mod was a 4 bbl cast iron intake (vortec to take a square bore carb is available) and edlebrock carb. For me this was the best approach as I've just finished my 4th season without issue. It just comes down to how you want to use your boat... good luck
 
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Bracker I think you're missing the point Chris was making. If hassle free use vs working on the boat is your goal stick with an off the shelf setup,
A quench style piston is easy to find from a reputable manufacturer. The manufacturer simply pulls it from their shelf.

that has a warranty, and can be serviced by any reasonably qualified independent technician or dealer.
Please explain why servicing a GM built SBC engine would be any different than that of servicing a SBC engine built using a Q/E into the combustion chamber!
We use the same or similar C/R, the same or similar cam profile, the same cylinder heads, the same ignition system, etc.

This is NOT about building a High Performance SBC.
It's about reducing the potential for Marine Load Detonation, allowing for better performance and torque.

If your passion is for the project and you don't mind working through some issues have fun with it.
Once Bracker makes his parts selections, he'll be on his way to the build.

Chris's advice is really protecting his clientele in terms of fixing it once and fixing it right being worth money up front, which is the correct approach.
First off, Chris isn't building this engine for Bracker.
Secondly, if this is not the correct approach, you must be in agreement that men like Dennis Moore (SBC Marine Performance), Jeff Smith (Super Chevy and well known SBC enthusiast), Marlan Davis (Hot Rod Network) Larry Carley (expert on engine combustion), John Erb (Chief engineer KB pistons), Jon Cobalt (crankshaft coalition) are all wrong!

My only additional thought ought would be make sure what ever machinist you use is very familiar with this build.
Any good machinist/machine shop will know exactly how to set this up.
If they do not..... it would be time find another machine shop.

Some people who do not understand this build, nor understand the advantages, will be the same people who will Foo Foo it as though they do!
I would suggest to anyone that they educate themselves as to the "why" and "how", before dismissing this type of build.


Seems a lot of posts like this where some one wants a custom hopped up engine,
Please understand that this is NOT a Hot Rod or High Performance build.
Again,
I would suggest educating yourself as to the "why" and "how", before dismissing this type of build.

poster gets plenty of free advice (other people spending your money), tend to see a fair number of issues down the road where poster has to go back into engine and there is some type of mismatch or machining issue.
Please give us a few examples regarding this type of build going bad!

This is not being a nay sayer, just reality of what you see on this and similar sites.
Ok.... getting down to the basics here, and while asking you to be very specific and detailed........, what are your exact reasons for being so against a Marine SBC Q/E build?

 
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rick I didn't quote you because it didn't want to see another long winded response where you say the same thing you have posted over and over again. As usual you're too busy sending links to your previous posts to read and understand.

OP asked " the opinion of the forum" my opinion is there is risk on any custom build that the boat owner takes on, even in a stock build. The boat owner will spend time selecting parts, working with the machinist, assembling etc with no warranty against any issues down the road.

For me , my opinion was that I didn't want to take the risk (not that it can't work) so I bought a new GM base engine. Not ***y but it works, It came with a warranty, and any marine mechanic can work on it if need be.

The OP asked the opinion of the forum, I gave my opinion on a different avenue. What ever direction the op decides I wish him luck, and rick you have too much time on your hands
 
Thread title:
383 Inboard (V-Drive) build


Post #1 (Bracker):
"I have decided to go with a 383 with Vortec (062 casting) heads, 22cc volume reverse dome hyper pistons, 5.7” rods, Comp XM264HR camshaft and Scat forged crankshaft. As currently configured it should have a SCR of 9.27:1 and a DCR of 7.62:1. Someone ran the specs through DynoSim6 for me and the torque numbers were exactly what I was looking for."
"However, I’m still trying to settle on a manifold/carb combo. It will have a full FWC kit, but as you guys know, Dennis Moore recommends using a cast iron manifold with cast iron heads (besides the corrosion factor) due to the expansion rate differential between iron and aluminum and how that affects the head gasket. What are your opinions on this matter? If I do go with the cast iron manifold, I believe all that are Vortec compatible are configured for a spread bore. I know there are square bore adapters but I’m ocd and I’ve read several places that this isn’t ideal.;) The forum’s thoughts and advice will be appreciated. Thanks!"

I do not see where Bracker (the OP here) is asking for our suggestions as to do this build or to not do this build! It sounds as though he is moving ahead with it!
Fast forward, and we see a few Nay-Sayers coming in.

As for the; ".... where you say the same thing you have posted over and over again"........... each OP is wanting to learn, and they are apparently not using the forum archives as a resource. So what you may think of as being redundant, it is not necessarily redundant for an OP.

As for the; "It came with a warranty, and any marine mechanic can work on it if need be" ............. what makes the Q/E built SBC any more difficult for a Marine mechanic to work on? Basically, nothing is changed but the piston deck profile along with incorporating a good quench dimension.

That said, I suppose that a mechanic who is not up to speed, could inadvertently install the wrong compressed head gasket thickness during/after cylinder head work. If so, this would be a result of using an inexperienced mechanic!


Let's help Bracker build his Q/E 6.3L SBC engine, and discuss things in a friendly, adult like and gentlemanly fashion.
Let's also not bring in Doom and Gloom unless asked for!


Fair enough????



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rick I didn't quote you because it didn't want to see another long winded response where you say the same thing you have posted over and over again. As usual you're too busy sending links to your previous posts to read and understand.

OP asked " the opinion of the forum" my opinion is there is risk on any custom build that the boat owner takes on, even in a stock build. The boat owner will spend time selecting parts, working with the machinist, assembling etc with no warranty against any issues down the road.

For me , my opinion was that I didn't want to take the risk (not that it can't work) so I bought a new GM base engine. Not ***y but it works, It came with a warranty, and any marine mechanic can work on it if need be.

The OP asked the opinion of the forum, I gave my opinion on a different avenue. What ever direction the op decides I wish him luck, and rick you have too much time on your hands

Dieter, don't waste your time. No ones opinion counts on this subject but his.
 
I think that a few of us are not understanding what Bracker is wanting to do.
Perhaps read post #1 again.


Isn't this an open forum, and aren't all reasonable suggestions allowed and welcomed?
Aren't we allowed to agree to disagree as long as we keep it civil?
Isn't ultimately up to the OP to decide which suggestions are good and/or not good for him/her?


Keep in mind that Wilbur and Orval would not have flown had they been restricted to thinking inside of the box only.
 
I think that a few of us are not understanding what Bracker is wanting to do.
Perhaps read post #1 again.


Isn't this an open forum, and aren't all reasonable suggestions allowed and welcomed?
Aren't we allowed to agree to disagree as long as we keep it civil?
Isn't ultimately up to the OP to decide which suggestions are good and/or not good for him/her?


Keep in mind that Wilbur and Orval would not have flown had they been restricted to thinking inside of the box only.
Practice what you preach.
 
Rick where in post #1 that you reference twice did the OP ask for the opinion on piston profile that you offered? Only intake and carb questions.

You bag on me for expanding scope yet you did just that. You mentioned doom and gloom but yet you only bag on full dish piston yet there are thousands of examples in service working fine.

You are a hypocrite with your comments in this thread.
 
Rick where in post #1 (that you reference twice) did the OP ask for the opinion on piston profile that you offered? Only intake and carb questions.
I don't recall being asked for piston profile opinions in post #1. In your opinion, does not being asked prevent us from making further suggestions if we see a need for them?

To the best of my knowledge, Bracker has appreciated my comments, in particular my comment re; his proposed choice of the reverse dome piston underneath a Vortec cylinder head. I believe that was when I suggested going with a LCQ style piston that better mirrors the Vortec cylinder head's quench surface.
A person would need to have extensive SBC engine building experience in order to understand why!

You mentioned doom and gloom
Yes I did!
Hopefully we are all able to delineate between positive comments and what I referred to as "Doom and Gloom" comments.


but yet you only bag on full dish piston yet there are thousands of examples in service working fine.
Yes..... I agree that there are literally thousands and thousands of SBCs out there (w/ the GM F/D pistons) and they working just fine.
Bracker apparently does not want an average Joe build.


We know what engine Bracker is building, and we know what he is wanting to achieve. So why not help him rather than continue disrupting and derailing his thread?
If these disruptions continue, it's likely that he won't return to his thread!


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Nah, I’ll keep coming back, I like this forum.:D Dieter, I really appreciate your input as I really do Dockside’s. I asked for everyone’s opinion and that is what I received. To try to give perspective to my approach, I’m a merchant mariner and I spend 300 plus days a year on tugboats. Researching this build gives me something to do in my downtime. I stumbled on Rick’s Q/E build posts when I first started my research and it piqued my interest so I solicited his advice and I’ve cross referenced his opinions with other credible sources. I know I could buy a new or remanned engine with warranty and have nothing to worry about. That is a very reasonable and probably even the most prudent path to take but I want to learn something and be able to say I built it (mostly) by myself.

Anyhow, I purchased a crank and connecting rods today and I’m pretty excited about it. I bought a Holley a couple of weeks ago. It isn’t made in that exact configuration with annular boosters anymore so I figured I’d go ahead and pick it up. I’ve included links below to the few components I’ve picked up for the build so far. Dieter, do you have the make/model/part number for that vortec cast iron intake? Thanks again all! I hope there are no hard feelings.

https://kmjperformance.com/wiseco-p...MIuZaPt5__5AIVBm6GCh0OSAczEAQYAiABEgJLSvD_BwE

https://allcarbs.com/product/holley-marine-carburetor-600-cfm-75021/

https://www.cnc-motorsports.com/4-3...d-weight-crankshaft-sb-chevy-383-stroker.html

https://www.cnc-motorsports.com/sca...-premium-pro-comp-i-beam-connecting-rods.html
 
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Bracker, I'm glad to see that you are still on board here and that you were not influenced by the Nay-Sayers.


I think that you made a good choice on the piston profile.

Excellent choice on the Holley carburetor, Scat crankshaft and Scat I-beam connecting rods.
Looks as though you are building an early cylinder block ( i.e., 2 pc rear main seal).

I noticed that the rods are set up for full floating wrist pins.
(I can't tell if the piston wrist pin bosses offer a grove for a locking clip)


By the way........ using 3 different on line calculators; https://www.rbracing-rsr.com › compstaticcalc , http://www.diamondracing.net/tools/ and https://uempistons.com/p-27-compression-ratio-calculator.html
.... and while using these values; 4.030"bore, 3.750"stroke, 20cc dish volume, 64cc combustion chambers, quench dimension of .042" (.016" in the hole/.028" compressed head gasket).... I come up with a S C/R of 9.41:1 , whereas the Wiseco information suggests a S C/R of 9.1:1 .


Since mid October to this morning, the number of views has gone from 604 to 835.
This means that lots of people are watching your 383 build thread....... so p
lease keep us up to date on your progress!






.


 
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Dieter, do you have the make/model/part number for that vortec cast iron intake?

i don't think marine engine offers these components, so hopefully I don't PO our host for directing folks to another suppliers site....

A couple of ways to go about this-

https://www.michiganmotorz.com/vortec-cast-iron-intake-manifold-1996-current-p-465.html

this is the intake, I have one on my 5.0 that I bought as a crate engine from Michigan motorz. I can say this intake while probably not the highest end casting but works very well, nice throttle response from idle to my 5000 rpm red line. it has a fairly hi rise to the plenum and the carb flange accepts both square and spread bore carbs. I don't know who makes this intake as everyone who sells it seems to grind the casting info off it. You can also find throttle bracket components there to adapt the mercruiser throttle cable to a Holley carb.

Another option is

https://www.castheads.com/manifolds-carb/intake-manifolds/vortec-marine-intake-manifold/

I think this is the same intake as above but they reference it is made by Engine Quest, and is port matched. This guy seems to specialize in porting cast iron heads and intakes, likely more suited to a performance build you are doing than an off the shelf intake. He does head porting as well if you haven't bought your heads yet.
 
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Bracker, I'm not sure of how you plan to cool this new engine.... (i.e., seawater cooled or Closed Cooling).
If you go with a Closed Cooling System, you can safely use an aluminum Edelbrock automotive "dual plane" square bore, Vortec intake manifold, and save yourself a few dollars and some weight.


https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fr..._odkw=sbc+vortec++square+bore+intake+manifold

If other than Edelbrock is ok with you, you may want to check these out.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fr...TRS0&_nkw=sbc+vortec+intake+manifold&_sacat=0


Just a thought!

If you go with an open system (seawater cooled), and although more expensive....... you can still use an Aluminum Vortec, dual plane, intake manifold with the bronze lined coolant cross-over passage.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=sbc+marine+vortec+intake+manifold+&_sacat=0&LH_TitleDesc=0&_osacat=0&_odkw=sbc+vortec+intake+manifold+for+marine+use




.........., likely more suited to a performance build you are doing ...........

Building a Q/E 6.3L SBC (as per what Bracker is doing), is NOT necessarily a high performance build.
This is so often misunderstood!




Quench and Squish by Horten .jpg





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Apparently some of us are not quite understanding the purpose of Bracker's thread. As I see it, Bracker is not asking whether he should or should not do this build for his 6.3L SBC Marine engine. It’s all right there beginning with post #1!

post #1 said:
I have decided to go with a 383 with Vortec (062 casting) heads, 22cc volume reverse dome hyper pistons, 5.7” rods, Comp XM264HR camshaft and Scat forged crankshaft. As currently configured it should have a SCR of 9.27:1 and a DCR of 7.62:1. Someone ran the specs through DynoSim6 for me and the torque numbers were exactly what I was looking for.

By the way (and any good mechanic should know this), the SBC 22cc reverse dome piston is a Quench style piston, very much unlike a SBC GM Full Dished piston.
From that info alone, it is clear to me that Bracker understands the value in a SBC Q/E build!

Let's also not lose sight that Bracker has not indicated that he has any budget restraints!


What is it about some members who are so hell-bent on disrupting and derailing a thread like this?
Perhaps these disruptions and derailment attempts are OK with some members!

Sad!



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Hi Gang

I found this post to very interesting and informative.

I, and I suspect many others are curious as to how this build worked out.

i plan on putting together something very similar. Great piston choice. Hope to find some less expensive hypers with a similar profile.

Please keep us updated.

Jon Allen
 
Dieter- I’ve decided to stick with the aluminum intake but thank you for the links. I actually talked to Keith at castheads.com(Brzezinski) about his advice on heads.

Rick-The engine will have a closed cooling system.

Jon- I haven’t done much more on it yet. I did find the machine shop/builder I’m going to source my block from, Carl of CNC Blocks Northeast(http://hinksonautomotive-cncblocks.com/). I talked to him right after my post of the components I’d bought. He was adamant on me going with 6” rods(I know Rick isn’t going to be happy with me:(). Carl really impressed me with his willingness to discuss the build at length without any skin in the game and I could tell he’s passionate about his work. Anyhow, I had already ordered the 5.7” rods and compatible crank but they hadn’t shipped yet so I had them swap them out for the 6” rods and accompanying crank. I was still just within the 30 day exchange period on the pistons so I sent them back and KMJ swapped them out for the 1.125” Comp. Ht. versions. It’s looking like the SeaCraft may need more glass work than the surveyor thought so I may be waiting on the build until I get the hull squared away. Jon, as far as similar hyper pistons, I saw these when I was looking for mine.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/slp-h890cp30/
 
.................
Dieter- I’ve decided to stick with the aluminum intake but thank you for the links. I actually talked to Keith at castheads.com(Brzezinski) about his advice on heads.

Rick-The engine will have a closed cooling system.
Great decision!


Jon- I haven’t done much more on it yet. I did find the machine shop/builder I’m going to source my block from, Carl of CNC Blocks Northeast(http://hinksonautomotive-cncblocks.com/). I talked to him right after my post of the components I’d bought. He was adamant on me going with 6” rods(I know Rick isn’t going to be happy with me:().
Bracker, me being happy or not is of little importance. These are YOUR choices.
However, I would suggest that you do a bit more research.

Carl is apparently into HP Auto builds, and perhaps not so much into the Marine builds.
The 6" rods require a raised wrist of which in turn typically makes for a shorter piston skirt.
We DO NOT want short piston skirts in a Marine Build.
But again.... these are YOUR choices.

Carl really impressed me with his willingness to discuss the build at length without any skin in the game and I could tell he’s passionate about his work. Anyhow, I had already ordered the 5.7” rods and compatible crank but they hadn’t shipped yet so I had them swap them out for the 6” rods and accompanying crank. I was still just within the 30 day exchange period on the pistons so I sent them back and KMJ swapped them out for the 1.125” Comp. Ht. versions. It’s looking like the SeaCraft may need more glass work than the surveyor thought so I may be waiting on the build until I get the hull squared away. Jon, as far as similar hyper pistons, I saw these when I was looking for mine.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/slp-h890cp30/
\

Jon, the Speed-Pro Hypereutectic pistons H890CP 30 are for the 4.030" bore, 3.750" stroke and the 5.7" rods...... and would be a good choice.

Keep in mind that your cylinder head combustion chamber volume must be known prior to ordering pistons with a certain dish volume.


.
 
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Dieter- I’ve decided to stick with the aluminum intake but thank you for the links. I actually talked to Keith at castheads.com(Brzezinski) about his advice on heads.
/

ok aluminum is probably better given the nature of you build. You may want to consider one that is coated like the Some of the Edelbrocks to combat corrosion of bare aluminum on the outside. While visual only I’m sure in a marine environment this would be more severe.

what were Keith’s head recommendations ?
 
Hi Bracker

How is the balancing going to be carried out on your build? Did you go with an externally or internally balanced rotating assembly?

What will you be using for a harmonic balancer and flywheel?

I suspect you live in the Northeast.

I live in Scituate Mass.

We have several shops down this way that specialize in vintage Seacraft restorations if you need one.

Thanks for keeping this topic alive as it is very helpful to those of us consideriing a stroker build.


Thanks

Jon Allen
 
Sorry this post is in different sizes and fonts. I am on the mobile site and it was being a PITA so I copied and pasted to notes on my phone to finish writing and this is what happened when I brought it back over.:rolleyes:

Dieter- I think I’m going to use this intake. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-27163/
Keith and their shop in general are big proponents of the 185cc Bow Tie Vortecs. I was already leaning towards these but I wondered if I’d be sacrificing any low end performance vs. the original Vortecs. I explained to him the engine’s intended application and my concerns and this was his reply, “
A set of 185 Vortec Bowtie heads wouldn't sacrifice any low end performance and would actually increase your top end power with the amount of cubic inches you are running.”(Not that I’m worried about top end.)



Jon- SeaCrafts do have a big following up your way. Even JFK, Jr. had one.:cool: I’m actually located in Stuart, FL though. My rotating assembly will be internally balanced and it will be going into a Dart SHP 2 piece RMS block. I believe they have addressed the issues associated with Siamese bores in the production 400 sbc and it is a higher quality casting than the GM production block at not too crazy of a price increase(in the grand scheme of the build). It has nice features such as a priority main oiling system and blind head bolt holes. Carl of CNC Blocks NE, whom I referenced earlier, recommended going with a PowerBond harmonic balancer, specifically the model in the link below. I haven’t looked too deep into the flywheel yet. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pbb-pb2221ss/


Rick- Yeah, I’m not too excited either about the wrist pins up in the oil ring land. Mahle has 1.125” compression height inverted dome style pistons in the same 4032 alloy that are designed so that the oil ring land is above the wrist pin. They didn’t have the volume/bore combination I wanted off the shelf so I didn’t go that route before but I talked to them recently and they said they could make them in the volume I need. The Wisecos are now posted several places for sale.:D


I thought I’d post some photos of the old girl.:D
View attachment 22668View attachment 22670View attachment 22669


 
Also, I was doing some more research on the balancer today and I don’t think I’ll be going with that balancer. I think it will be a larger one like Rick told me months ago.:D I should have listened then...:D I haven’t bought one yet so I’m good in that respect.
 
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Hi Bracker

How is the balancing going to be carried out on your build? Did you go with an externally or internally balanced rotating assembly?

What will you be using for a harmonic balancer and flywheel?
The GM 3.750" stroke crankshaft (400 cu in SBC) requires the large 400 harmonic balancer. This balancer is weighted, as in NOT Neutral.

I am not sure what the Scat Stroker crankshaft assembly requires.

Nonetheless, most people will purchase a balanced assembly, or will have their rotating assembly balanced, including the flywheel.




Jon Allen

Sorry this post is in different sizes and fonts. I am on the mobile site and it was being a PITA so I copied and pasted to notes on my phone to finish writing and this is what happened when I brought it back over.:rolleyes:

Dieter- I think I’m going to use this intake. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-27163/
Keith and their shop in general are big proponents of the 185cc Bow Tie Vortecs. I was already leaning towards these but I wondered if I’d be sacrificing any low end performance vs. the original Vortecs. I explained to him the engine’s intended application and my concerns and this was his reply, “
A set of 185 Vortec Bowtie heads wouldn't sacrifice any low end performance and would actually increase your top end power with the amount of cubic inches you are running.”(Not that I’m worried about top end.)
FYI..... the 185cc refers to the intake runners.


Jon- SeaCrafts do have a big following up your way. Even JFK, Jr. had one.:cool: I’m actually located in Stuart, FL though. My rotating assembly will be internally balanced and it will be going into a Dart SHP 2 piece RMS block. I believe they have addressed the issues associated with Siamese bores in the production 400 sbc and it is a higher quality casting than the GM production block at not too crazy of a price increase(in the grand scheme of the build). It has nice features such as a priority main oiling system and blind head bolt holes. Carl of CNC Blocks NE, whom I referenced earlier, recommended going with a PowerBond harmonic balancer, specifically the model in the link below. I haven’t looked too deep into the flywheel yet. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pbb-pb2221ss/
That appears to be a neutrally balanced unit.... yes/no?


Rick- Yeah, I’m not too excited either about the wrist pins up in the oil ring land. Mahle has 1.125” compression height inverted dome style pistons in the same 4032 alloy that are designed so that the oil ring land is above the wrist pin. They didn’t have the volume/bore combination I wanted off the shelf so I didn’t go that route before but I talked to them recently and they said they could make them in the volume I need. The Wisecos are now posted several places for sale.:D
The Hot Rod guys are turning higher RPM, therefor the longer 6" rods benefit them with regard to piston side loading.
(with the longer rods, the articulation angle is less)
They do pay the price by having the wrist pin within the ring package which reduces side skirt stability. However, their power needs are typically in short bursts.

Whereas with the Marine build, we see perhaps 3,800 to 4,000 RPM max, but our power needs are much more constant and are certainly for long duration.

In my opinion, the 5.7" rods leave us with a wrist pin location that allows for longer piston side skirts and with no interruption at the ring package area.

Also, I was doing some more research on the balancer today and I don’t think I’ll be going with that balancer. I think it will be a larger one like Rick told me months ago.:D I should have listened then...:D I haven’t bought one yet so I’m good in that respect.

Rick, what do you think of this for a harmonic balancer?
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pbb-pb1046ss/
That balancer is listed for the 350/5.7, which is a 3.480" stroke crankshaft.
Depending on who's 3.750" stroker crankshaft you use, it may not balance out.
Your machinist should be able to tell you.
 
That’s exactly the coated intake I was thinking of. That powder coating should keep it looking new a long time
 
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