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08 Honda 225 oil buzzer and shutdown problem

J

jtruck

New member
This Honda is about to drive me to drink. I have a pair of 225s. This particular one has been "upgraded" to the new ecm and heated o2 sensor. Don't believe that this has any bearing on my issue though. The oil light on my tach keeps going off, giving me the steady buzzer and cuts back the rpm. i snipped the wire (pink wire)to the low oil pressure sensor. i thought that had fixed my problem until i took it out for a test before snapper season. i have changed the oil and filter and i thought that had fixed the problem until a trip or 2 later when it started again. yesterday i snipped the high pressure sensor wire(yellow/ red) and grounded it. today i took it offshore and got the same thing. if you go full throttle from the beginning it will do it immediately. if you keep it under 3000 rpm it may go for a minute without alarm or it may go 5 minutes before the alarm sounds again. If you rev the engine in neutral it will give you the alarm as well and the light goes out. i was under the impression that only the high pressure and low pressure sensors would allow it to go into shutdown mode. trying to figure out how it keeps shutting down since i have eliminated both of those sensors. the reason I'm routing around these is for process of elimination and one or both of the sensors require you to remove the heads to replace. any ideas or extra info that i don't have will be greatly appreciated.
 
Use a mechanical gauge to see what your oil pressure is doing before you destroy your motor.You need to make or buy an adapter to fit where the large 22mm plug is on the vtec solenoid. You should have 80-90 psi at idle with a cold engine, once properly warmed up, that is after about 20min hard run. the oil pressure should hold at 70psi plus over 2000rpm and 25psi at idle.
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thanks for that info but I'm past that point. I'm trying to figure out how it can give me the alarm and cut back rpms with neither sensor telling it to do so. everything i have read on here says that low pressure is the only thing that will cause the light to go out and cut back rpms.i did read 1 thread that said it would do the same thing if it was sensing water in the fuel but i can't imagine that is right. i am thinking an ecm problem but every dealer i have contacted says no way it's an ecm problem. but the dealers also say there is no O2 sensor problem or no shaft bushing problem. the engines only have 200 hours on them, that's why i bought the boat, but just 1 problem after another. I'm just trying to go fishing not become a Honda mechanic.
 
So snipping wires is not the answer,if the ecm is not seeing the sensor it will also alarm. You need to start by checking oil pressure with a mechanical gauge, the alarm is sounding for a reason, I am only offering you help.
 
a pressure switch is normally open or normally closed, that being said... when i snipped the pink wire (low pressure)it gave the ecm what it needed to turn the light on. when i cut and grounded the the yellow and red wire ( high pressure) it also again gave the ecm what it needed to turn the light on. unless these sensors are potentiometers or looking for a voltage range this should satisfy the ecm on the oil side. if not, i should be getting a constant alarm as soon as i turn the key on, instead i have a steady light as soon as i turn the key on even without the engine running (which is what i was trying to accomplish for now). i have pulled the codes 5 or 6 times by now and there is nothing there. i know whenever it gives an alarm it is supposed to store a code but it is not doing that. it never has stored a code, i have been chasing this for a few months already. the dealership said a grounding or electrical issue so i ran all new main wiring, put on an extra ground strap and put all new ends on all the ground wires. The dealership say they don't know how it is giving an alarm with the pink wire cut, that is why he said he thought it would be a grounding issue. unless there is redundancy in this system that i don't know about i should be able to trick the ecm.
 
I still don't believe in snipping wires, there are ways of testing without doing that. Your best option is to find a dealer with DrH, reconnect your cut wires and start again with diagnosis. If the oil alert system is working as it should it will log oil pressure failure events, this can be seen by noting the number,if any of times the oil alert circuit has been activated. Usually if the alert system is triggered at 3000 rpm it is caused by high oil pressure. If the ecm does not see the oil pressure switch before start up,it will alarm having sensed an open circuit, same applies to the high pressure switch. If you are going to trick the ecm you need to disconnect the ground as the engine starts, not start with it open circuit. The oil light comes on when you switch the key on and then goes off after a couple of seconds, this is part of the circuit check carried out by the ecm. This is why you cannot just cut wires to bypass circuits, it's all part of the engine guardian system. If you are really stumped, just take the ecu and O 2 sensor off the other engine and try it to see if the ecm is the problem. Hope this makes sense.
 
swapping the ecm and o2 sensor makes sense. the engine will start and idle all day long with no alarm with the one wire cut and the other one grounded. im not sure the difference between the engines you're asking me about. I've been going off the assumption it's a bf225 because that is what i was told. do you go off of the serial number?
 
Send the serial number, I just want to confirm yours was the A6 ecm/O2 sensor upgrade, if it was the AK then the engine harness was also replaced and you will not be able to use the ecm swap to test.
 
bahj-1500380 or bagj-1502301 i have pictures of the vin tags in my phone but don't remember which is which. i think it's the bahj.
 
They are A6 motors, so you can swop the ecm and O2 sensor over and see if the problem goes away.You will need the reducer fitting for the upgraded motor when you change the sensors over.
 
I have the reducers. thanks for the idea. i had thought about it a long time ago but dismissed it before i knew how easy it was to swap the ecm and that the only thing changed was the o2 sensor. it will be a little while before i can try this out but i will post how it turns out.
 
i got a chance to swap the ecm and this did not fix the problem. the problem is in the high pressure circuit. i know this sounds crazy but i was not willing to pull the heads to change the sensor in the middle of good fishing weather. i figure high pressure can't hurt it too bad if high pressure is the problem. probably only going to run it gently for 20 hours or so before the weather breaks for me to dive in. so...i grounded the high pressure circuit and put a spade connector in the line. i start it up with it connected then disconnect it. runs fine until you shut it off again. have taken it out twice like this, and will continue until i get a chance to fix it. thanks for the help. don't try this at home.
 
Sorry for asking a stupid question, but do you actually know that your oil pressure is OK?

I know an engineer who works on very big yachts and tells the story of an oil sensor that was going off at random times so the (then) engineer disconnected the alarm.
Not too long after that the engine destroyed itself and had to be replaced, plus the deck had to be cut open to replace it!
 
jtruck said:
i got a chance to swap the ecm and this did not fix the problem. the problem is in the high pressure circuit. i know this sounds crazy but i was not willing to pull the heads to change the sensor in the middle of good fishing weather. i figure high pressure can't hurt it too bad if high pressure is the problem. probably only going to run it gently for 20 hours or so before the weather breaks for me to dive in. so...i grounded the high pressure circuit and put a spade connector in the line. i start it up with it connected then disconnect it. runs fine until you shut it off again. have taken it out twice like this, and will continue until i get a chance to fix it. thanks for the help. don't try this at home.
Click to expand...

This sounds exactly what happened to me so I want to know more. Just had the port motor power head replaced due to excessive thrust bearing lift check of 0.018". I took it for a test run working up the rpm's slowly to WOT for the first 30 minutes and never staying at any fixed rpm for longer than 5 minutes. At around 4100 rpm on about the third time of doing this, the alarm buzzer came in and I noticed the green oil pressure light go out as I throttled back. This happened twice and I took it back to the marine shop. They checked it with their diagnostic tool and no codes! They took the boat out twice and could not get it to repeat.

Where is the high oil pressure sensor? Is it possible that I had just high enough oil pressure to trip the alarm and now with more running time it won't do it again? Any thoughts?
 
The HP oil sensor is in the middle of the V. You must remove at least one head to get to it. It's a real PITA.

If I were in your shoes, I would continue to monitor it and see if it recurs.
 
Thank you chawk_man!

Just for FYI, the marine shop tested the oil pressure with two different gauges and got the following readings:
idle 82 psi, 4000 rpm 98 psi
idle 83 psi, 4000 rpm 95 psi

This was done in a test tank with the motor in neutral.

I wonder at what high pressure does it trip the alarm?
 
Sorry, I don't know the specs for oil pressure and as far as I know it's not in the Helm Shop Manual.

Hopefully someone who knows will jump in.
 
At the beginning of this thread, Ian posed:

"80-90 psi at idle with a cold engine, once properly warmed up, that is after about 20 min hard run. the oil pressure should hold at 70 psi plus over 2000 rpm and 25 psi at idle."

Assuming reading was on a cold engine, oil pressure is good.
 
Here is a followup on this thread for any of those who might find it helpful like I did...

The marine shop had the boat for about two weeks and conducted two sea trials. They were not able to get the problem to repeat. I took it out for an overnight, ran the crap out of it, and also not able to get it to repeat. Just got back from a five day trip at the lake where I followed all break-in power settings, put 25 hours on the engine, with no problems. I just changed the oil and filter yesterday, no issues with the oil sample, and I cut open the filter. I found many noticeable contamination of "lint" on the outside of the filter element. It looks like somewhere in the process of building the power head at Honda to final installation, I had a lint/fabric contamination. I will show the marine shop the filter element this coming Tuesday to see if they want to followup on their process and/or Honda.
 
That's a new one on me. However, about 100 hours into my 2007 BF 225, I took if to the dealer for it's first 100 hour maintenance. They called me back and said they found metal flakes in the oil. Honda replaced the block. Their explanation was that the block had not been properly and thoroughly cleaned when it came out of the foundry. So what you found may not be that far-fetched.
 
sourcecal said:
This sounds exactly what happened to me so I want to know more. Just had the port motor power head replaced due to excessive thrust bearing lift check of 0.018". I took it for a test run working up the rpm's slowly to WOT for the first 30 minutes and never staying at any fixed rpm for longer than 5 minutes. At around 4100 rpm on about the third time of doing this, the alarm buzzer came in and I noticed the green oil pressure light go out as I throttled back. This happened twice and I took it back to the marine shop. They checked it with their diagnostic tool and no codes! They took the boat out twice and could not get it to repeat.

Where is the high oil pressure sensor? Is it possible that I had just high enough oil pressure to trip the alarm and now with more running time it won't do it again? Any thoughts?
Click to expand...

Paul, how many hours for the thrust washer to go out of tolerance and what year or serial number range is the engine? I have two post 170 serial number BF200's and it is a major concern for me as they fall within the affected serials. Also what oil are you using 10W30? I would really appreciate this info!!
 
Blacktimes: This thrust washer only had just under 200 hours on it. The outboard is a 2009 BF225 with serial number BAHJ-1500403. But, this thrust washer is the second time this engine has failed. I experienced a total catastrophic thrust washer failure back in 2014 and, again, only had approximately 200 hours on that engine. The S/B engine's thrust washer was way out of tolerance with the same hours on it in 2014. Honda replaced both power heads under warranty. Now here's where it gets tricky. The key to knowing if your motor is prone to washer failure is to determine if the power head was built after January 1, 2014 based on research from Honda via my marine dealer. There is an inked date stamp on the top right front of what normally would be where the automotive oil pan but since this is an upright outboard, the oil pan has been replaced with a crankcase plate.

When both power heads were replaced in 2014, Honda used a date stamped engine of 13.1.25 on the port engine (i.e., January 25, 2013) and I was unaware that that it was manufactured prior to the upgraded thrust washer. The S/B engine has a date stamp of 14.1.15 and the thrust bearing clearance check has always been less than 0.003" with now about 200 hours on it. Therefore, Honda screwed me when they replaced the port engine with a prone to fail thrust washer and the fact that they only gave me a warranty until 10/29/2016. It cost me $9k to replace the port power head but it now has a date stamp well into 2015. Numerous attempts by the dealer and myself to Honda got nowhere...!!!

I am using 10W30 Yamalube oil and feel confident this is OK because the post 2014 S/B power head is not seeing any issues with over 200 hours on it.
 
Thanks very much for the detailed info! Mine are 2011 serials post 170... I have a strong feeling I am going to run into this. Engines now have 130 hrs and crankshaft play was within tolerance when I measured 0.25mm and 0.27mm on the other with 100 hrs. Will measure again one of these days to see the wear trend but bottom line is that I'm probably screwed.
 
Yah...too me 0.25 to 0.27mm would be excessive since my S/B hasn't changed in 200 hours from 0.076mm since brand new. A rule of thumb I read back in 2014 on the forums is that if you lift the crank, suddenly take away the lift, and it goes "clunk"; it's bad. The other thing I now do after the engines have been sitting for more than a week is cold crank (i.e., turn the kill switch off) until I see the oil pressure indication on the dash. Then, I start the motor. I didn't like how quickly the motor would start and sometimes the low oil pressure alarm would come in because it took too long for oil pressure to build up. This practice may be debatable on the forum...
 
I hate stacking bad news on top of your current situation but I feel it's important to know. When the thrust bearing fails, it causes the crank to drop and that blocks off an oil passage to the valve rocker assembly. When my port engine failed in 2014, it was proceeded by a significant high pitch scream at about 4000 rpm, I throttled back, and the scream went away. I then ramped back up to 4000 rpm and within 10 seconds the rocker arm on the #4 cylinder froze causing the intake or exhaust valve to stay wide open. The subsequent piston strike broke off the valve head and the engine seized with the valve head sticking into the top of the piston.

It is my opinion that once the lift check starts showing high lift readings, the time to failure increases exponentially. I don't have actual data to back this opinion; it's just how I see it. Others may disagree and that's OK.
 
Thanks, all feedback is very helpfull and I appreciate it. Right now I'm in a wait and see situation. The engines are out of warranty. Crankshaft play is still within limits (0.25mm one engine and 0.27mm the other). Standard crankshaft axle clearance is 0.10mm to 0.35mm and max allowable limit is 0.45mm. So, other than moving to a thicker oil, running the engines each couple of weeks in winter and rechecking play to see thrust washer wear trend there is nothing much more than I can do. The million dollar question for me is if it's going to be an "if" or a "when".
 
I'm at 2200 hours on my 07 BF 225. Crank play is still within spec. Several years ago I switched over to Merc 25W-40 FC-W oil based on advice from 2 local shops - one specializing in Honda's.
 
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