Johnson 85/115 super slow trim/tilt

Our 1984 johnson V4 has super slow trim/tilt
we have fill fluid and drive outboard up/down
multiple times but speed does not change its
extreme slow. Trim/tilt electric motor keeps same voice
up/down and both directions are same low speed.
we have change manual relief valve o-ring and
It does not look that it leaks.

could it still be air in the system or could
trim/tilt electric motor gone bad?

appreciate any helping tips, thanks a lot ?

Did you change the fluid? That will help, because I should say that it often gets contaminated and ignored. Did the problem start slowly, or all at once?

timguy said:

Did you change the fluid? That will help, because I should say that it often gets contaminated and ignored. Did the problem start slowly, or all at once?

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Thanks for respond.

it was slow when bought the engine +month ago.

fluid has not changed only fill more.
Air bubles make noise still. It is all time same speed
when there was low fluid and after fill fluid up.

Strange when nothing change when fluid level is good
and engine has down and rise up multiple times.

i was thinking that motor is bad. But did not want to buy
new if fault ia not there.

Is the fluid clear? Or is it cloudy? I would still try a change, it is a simple part of trim/tilt maintenance. If the motor is at fault it would seem to run slower rpm's as well as draw more current. I have a pontoon boat here with a 75 that the motor is froze up from water contamination, but I may be able to save it. Depends on how much it was attempted to have been operated. The fuse has not been blown yet, which is good news.

timguy said:

Is the fluid clear? Or is it cloudy? I would still try a change, it is a simple part of trim/tilt maintenance. If the motor is at fault it would seem to run slower rpm's as well as draw more current. I have a pontoon boat here with a 75 that the motor is froze up from water contamination, but I may be able to save it. Depends on how much it was attempted to have been operated. The fuse has not been blown yet, which is good news.

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Thanks for respond!

What have seen fluid is clear.
manual relief valve leaks and yellow color clear fluid come out there.
now relief valve not leak anymoore. fill oil was red atf.
trim motor and relays take quite hot when rise/drop takes so long. One time it not rise again when drop it down to try blow air out. Relays get voltages when push up button but it wont rise. Suddenly after 10min. it works again. After that bit scary that it will fully burn and not make any up/down driving anymoore.

oil change is no problem, where can take all fluid of ?

Sounding like a rebuild is needed. If things are getting hot, then there is too much draw with the motor, or a weak pump causing the motor to run too long. There may not be a fuse incorporated into your system, but you need to find it and see if it blew. Otherwise a relay problem....if you don't hear a "click", check power to relays. If they are getting power, then they are cooked. The motor will take alot to burn out, so the relays or the main fuse (if there is one.....there should be) will likely blow first.

timguy said:

Sounding like a rebuild is needed. If things are getting hot, then there is too much draw with the motor, or a weak pump causing the motor to run too long. There may not be a fuse incorporated into your system, but you need to find it and see if it blew. Otherwise a relay problem....if you don't hear a "click", check power to relays. If they are getting power, then they are cooked. The motor will take alot to burn out, so the relays or the main fuse (if there is one.....there should be) will likely blow first.

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Thanks for respond !

Nothing cooked yet it works still up and down (super slow).
maybe change new motor on it.
if that does not help then rebuild the pump.

I'm going basics here, maybe another tech can help more. I don't do a lot of trim/tilts.

Emptyed system from oil and put new ATF in.
Tilt ram wont rise after many time helping with hand up.
Also look multiple time that resoirv is full of ATF.
ATF does not move to tilt ram.
Trim rams work but they are super low speed like they
are before. Now outboard has no tilt only trim.
Maybe pump has something wrong and put too much load to electric motor and pressure wont rise when system is low speed all time and motor / relays go very hot.

Thought to try find/change another whole unit.

bracket / trim system is 1980
J85TLCSA
powerhead / relay system is 1984
E115TLCRD

Is it possible to use/put new’er unit than orginal 1980 ?
example 1985-1990 units ?

If someone know / respond thanks a lot !

Your post #1 states that the electric motor keeps the same voice up/down... BUT... does not specify if it is running at full speed, OR, if it is running super slow.

Your problem may indeed just be a loose or tight but dirty connection along the line somewhere that's resulting in a voltage drop to the electric motor.

The unit is self bleeding... forget about a possible air problem. The only problem air could cause would be a air lock under the oil pump... and should that happen, the electric motor would simply run at full speed and nothing would move. This type problem is cured by applying 7 to 12 psi of air to the reservoir to force fluid back into the oil pump area, however this is not the problem.

The "HOT" relay would indicate a voltage problem exists somewhere.

Question: Is there a rpm problem with that electric motor?

joereeves said:

Your post #1 states that the electric motor keeps the same voice up/down... BUT... does not specify if it is running at full speed, OR, if it is running super slow.

Your problem may indeed just be a loose or tight but dirty connection along the line somewhere that's resulting in a voltage drop to the electric motor.

The unit is self bleeding... forget about a possible air problem. The only problem air could cause would be a air lock under the oil pump... and should that happen, the electric motor would simply run at full speed and nothing would move. This type problem is cured by applying 7 to 12 psi of air to the reservoir to force fluid back into the oil pump area, however this is not the problem.

The "HOT" relay would indicate a voltage problem exists somewhere.

Question: Is there a rpm problem with that electric motor?

Click to expand...

Thanks for your reply !

Dont know how motor should run but it sound that it does not run full rounds.

Going hot could maybe that it need to work much longer when rise allway up than in normal speed operation.

Here is videolink. Video is before oil change.
Time of video trim/tilt works same speed up / down.
At 0:21 tilt ram start rise.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ENjqV4eRR-M

It definitely is not running at full speed. Did the problem start all at once or after a storage period? The relay will also get hot if there is too much draw on the battery. I put an ammeter on to check current draw by the motor. My bet is that your current draw is way over resulting in relay heat. Do you have a fuse and how many amperes is it? Maybe there is NO FUSE, there should be a fuse. Fuses protect your relays. The reason for relays is that incorporating a "switch" to handle higher loads will need substantially heavier wiring throughout the system, plus a bigger switch. A trim/tilt motor such as yours, should draw no more than 50 amps at 12volts.

timguy said:

It definitely is not running at full speed. Did the problem start all at once or after a storage period? The relay will also get hot if there is too much draw on the battery. I put an ammeter on to check current draw by the motor. My bet is that your current draw is way over resulting in relay heat. Do you have a fuse and how many amperes is it? Maybe there is NO FUSE, there should be a fuse. Fuses protect your relays. The reason for relays is that incorporating a "switch" to handle higher loads will need substantially heavier wiring throughout the system, plus a bigger switch. A trim/tilt motor such as yours, should draw no more than 50 amps at 12volts.

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Thanks for your reply !

Then either something is holding the motor from turning freely with normal load, or perhaps the motor is partially shorting out in it's armature because it was overheated at one time. The fuse that protects my 130 horsepower for example is 40 amp. There really should be two heavy gauge cables going to the motor one of course positive and the other of course negative. Perhaps they are getting negative through the boat body itself which is not a good ground. I didn't notice is your boat aluminum or is it fiberglass?

timguy said:

Then either something is holding the motor from turning freely with normal load, or perhaps the motor is partially shorting out in it's armature because it was overheated at one time. The fuse that protects my 130 horsepower for example is 40 amp. There really should be two heavy gauge cables going to the motor one of course positive and the other of course negative. Perhaps they are getting negative through the boat body itself which is not a good ground. I didn't notice is your boat aluminum or is it fiberglass?

Click to expand...

Will inspect whole wiring also measure current next time when go to boat.
Is it possible to take motor out and try to run pump example cordless drill ?
Or is there some way to figure out / test the motor and the pump that they are good or bad ?

Boat is fiberglass and it is small old army landing craft for 9 men / 900kg.

The electric motor on that PTT unit is a 2 wire dual polarity motor, meaning voltage applied to those two wires in one direction would make it run in one direction... and reversing the wires would make it run in the opposite direction.

The motor contains a "Circuit Breaker" which opens when the heat hits a certain point. This interrupts the voltage, preventing the motor from operating until the heat dissipates which causes the breaker to close, which in turn allows the voltage to flow again.

There should be only 2 wires actually leading to the electric motor (Not 3) .

It sounds to me that there is a voltage drop somewhere in that wiring, caused by.... loose wiring, tight but dirty connection, wiring of the wrong size (too small) installed... something!

********************
Electric Motor Test: Trace the two wires of that electric motor back to its connector and disconnected them. Now, having a good known fully charged 12v battery, connect the battery directly to the electric motor wires with proper size jumpers. That would cause the motor to run in one direction... reversing the wires would make it run in the opposite direction.

If the PTT unit works properly in this test in both directions, then nothing is wrong with the PTT unit itself.
********************

Thanks Joe, you are better suited to handle this problem than me.

timguy said:

Thanks Joe, you are better suited to handle this problem than me.

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I don't agree with that statement Tim... I consider you a valuable asset. It was just that I noticed a few things hadn't been addressed so I thought I'd stick them in there. Timra's mention of "smaller wires have me wondering about the entire rigs wiring being faulty to a point whereas possibly much of it will require starting from scratch.

joereeves said:

I don't agree with that statement Tim... I consider you a valuable asset. It was just that I noticed a few things hadn't been addressed so I thought I'd stick them in there. Timra's mention of "smaller wires have me wondering about the entire rigs wiring being faulty to a point whereas possibly much of it will require starting from scratch.

Click to expand...

Will let know what find out when explore wiring etc.

Maybe I missed it, but have you had the tilt/trim motor apart and checked that out ??

I think your confusing position sensor wire with trim motor wire, there are two sets of wires in that harness for two purposes. Trim motor should have two power wires entering the case and a continuity wire on a back screw. Manufacturers are finding red trans/hyd fluid is eating seals and are making a push educate, especially the RV guys and thier slide outs, drain and fill with the proper oil if you haven't already. Its use will void warranties in the future according to my reps. I'd pull the trim motor hook it up to another 12v source and see, it should have some torque and speed with no load on it, initially when connected it will want to jump out of your hands in simple terms. If it doesn't do that then your motor needs replaced.

I'd like to hear from the OP.

Boobie said:

I'd like to hear from the OP.

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Boobie... His last post stated: "Thanks a lot every one! Will let know what find out when explore wiring etc."

So we'll wait a bit. (Joe)

joereeves said:

Boobie... His last post stated: "Thanks a lot every one! Will let know what find out when explore wiring etc."

So we'll wait a bit. (Joe)

Click to expand...

Thanks for all respond’s !

When motor wires put direct to battery it sounds and
try to move much faster.

wire inspect left back when hit new problem.
motor run fast but outboard dos not move.
resoirv is filled full. Left multiple times via hand up
but nothing seems to help.

is there now airlock somewhere ?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rRHyGhCrEVY

timra said:

Thanks for all respond’s ! When motor wires put direct to battery it sounds and try to move much faster. wire inspect left back when hit new problem. motor run fast but outboard dos not move. resoirv is filled full. Left multiple times via hand up but nothing seems to help. is there now airlock somewhere?

Click to expand...

Make sure that the manual release valve is closed. <-- If closed and problem continues, read on.................

This is usually due to a air lock under the oil pump. Using a rag as a sort of sealing cloth, apply 7 to 12 psi of pressurized air to the reservoir. This will force the fluid into the area of the pump... and the air out. Let us know if this cures the present problem.

The motor will also run faster if the pump cannot grab the fluid, then also, of course, the ram will not move or function. So under load, the motor cannot effectively push the fluid so it is "bogging". What does that tell us? There could be a problem with the ram too? There could be a restriction in the ram or the feed/return, passages or lines? I see brake lines, such as caliper feeds, will sometimes plug up from debris or lining breakdown. The CMC trim tilt uses short sections of hose, I have seen these plug up internally, causing "distress" on the pump and motor. Didn't somebody mention the possibility that the pivot or hinges to the operational trim tilt may be corroded or not lubricated effectively?

Thanks for all responds !

maybe is good to put this in order where we are at this point.

1. Start situation, trim/tilt super low But works all way up / down
2. Try to make air bleed and think that air is makes speed problem
3. Skrewing manual release valve durin air bleed process o-ring start to bleed
4. During o-ring change all old fluid pumped out rise/pull down outboard multible times so old fluid flow out manual release hole (valve was out)
5. Put new o-ring to mrv and fill reseirvor full
6. Trying trim/tilt up/down notice that its not only super slow its also got very hot (relays/wires)
7. Found that something is wrong relay unit and put motor wires direct to battery. Noticed that motor run normal fast direct battery
8. But still no movements up/down in tilt ram.
9. Connect air compressor to resoirv and keep pressure 0.8bar and found that it wont help.
10. Take compressor out and lift by hand outboard up/trailer lock again and fill
resoirv up atf.
11. Put compressor again and keep 0.8bar pressure in resporv and same time
drive motor tilt cyl up.
12. Take compressor out put resoirvor fill cap skrev closed and hand release outboard down and it stop half way tilt ram.
try to rise motor running up but tilt ram not rise.
Run motor down and tilt ram start to move fast like it should down.
but after that again it only works trim rams but not tilt ram.
13. Rise it up by hand to tilt/trailer lock open resoirv and atf start to flow slowly out so resoirv is full

so have seen one time tilt ram goes fast down but after that no tilt movements
trim rams move fast up/down.

tilt ram no movement problem starts when pumped old fluid out mrv hole by lift/down outboard via hand.
Think that there could still be airlock somewhere but dont know how to get it out.

resoirv is full dont know what to do next ?

is it possible to rise air compressor pressure over 0.8bar(12psi) or does higher pressure damage the unit ?

Don't think you are having an air issue here. It also seems the pivot points/hinges are free. The motor runs higher speed when directly connected to the battery, so we know that there is a power supply problem, likely through the relay, since it is getting hot. This could also mean too small of gauge wire to feed the unit. This 130 hp system that I'm waiting for parts now has perhaps 8 gauge wire feeding it, but only a short run from the battery.....4 feet. However, even with full motor speed, you have no improvement of the tilting speed. Simply stated then, you have either a weak pump or a ram cylinder which is bypassing within. So to solve the "either", we can test pump pressure output, or test the ram cylinder. Normally, the ram will hold the motor at a partial tilt, without loosing any height. If it leaks down, then we might suspect a ram, but it could also be a check valve in the pump.

timguy said:

Don't think you are having an air issue here. It also seems the pivot points/hinges are free. The motor runs higher speed when directly connected to the battery, so we know that there is a power supply problem, likely through the relay, since it is getting hot. This could also mean too small of gauge wire to feed the unit. This 130 hp system that I'm waiting for parts now has perhaps 8 gauge wire feeding it, but only a short run from the battery.....4 feet. However, even with full motor speed, you have no improvement of the tilting speed. Simply stated then, you have either a weak pump or a ram cylinder which is bypassing within. So to solve the "either", we can test pump pressure output, or test the ram cylinder. Normally, the ram will hold the motor at a partial tilt, without loosing any height. If it leaks down, then we might suspect a ram, but it could also be a check valve in the pump.

Click to expand...

Thanks for your reply.

iam stuck with that it was working full down/up before ”full oil change”
After oil change it works exactly same with no tilt operation but
Super slow like now in the video (direct battery wiring).
dont know what happened after all old fluids take out and new atf put in but something serious. Relays/wirings are not the problem, have new relays and wires all ready but have not installed them when cannot get tilt operation work.

if have not touch old oil but put wires direct to battery (bypass old relays) maybe have now workin tilt too...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHLMgdTRlNU

Yes it doesn't seem as though your pump is grabbng the fluid it seems as though the electric motor is just spinning freely. Sounds it is airbound. Joe, Racer, Boobie, have you seen the video? Help!