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Evinrude Triumph Selectric shift issues 65hp 1972

andrew_glastron

New member
Hi all
I have just purchased my first boat, a Glastron v152 fitted with a 65hp Evinrude Triumph motor (65273S). When i purchased the boat the lower unit was removed although included in the sale.
I fitted the LU and have got the motor purring nicely with a brand new power pack, now i just need to sort out my shift issues. Presently the gearcase is stuck in Forward.
After much reading i have wrapped my head around the Selectric shift system and have narrowed my problem down to somewhere in the gearcase. I am receiving the correct voltages on the 2 shift wires, and the solenoids have the correct 5-6 ohms to ground. When i unplug the solenoids and power either 1 or both directly with the motor running it still wont shift out of Forward.

I have removed and bench tested both solenoids, they both pull their plungers down approx 3/16" from the top when powered on the bench.
When they are installed in the gearcase however the plungers do not pull downwards under power. They both sit just under the solenoid top same as where they sit unpowered. When power is applied the solenoids themselves lift up about 3/16" out of the gearcase and the plungers stay put. Plungers move freely in the solenoid body. Im thinking something is stopping the plungers moving down and applying oil pressure to the dog clutch.
Looking down the solenoid hole in the case i can see where the shift rods bottom out, (on the shift levers?) however i cant seem to move these down at all manually.
Where should i be looking from here? Could something be jammed up in the valve body/shift lever/oil pump area? Is there anything i can do short of pulling the prop and shaft out?

The only part i can see missing from the parts diagram is the wave washer on top of the solenoid, however i cant see how this would help seeing as the plungers dont appear to move at all.

I've not been able to source any Type C oil locally (Australia) yet, although i did a fill from the bottom plug with ISO 68 hydraulic oil as directed by my local outboard shop. When i bought the boat the LU was full of gluggy milkshake so i flushed that out with fuel before refilling. I will find some Type C somewhere for my next test.


I'd also like to say a huge thanks to Joereeves and racerone, your posts have popped up many times during my research and your advice has been invaluable in getting me this far!!!
 
Andy... In reading thru back issues so to speak, you should have come across the fact that forward gear is the default which is caused by a spring loaded clutch dog.

Forward gear - No voltage applied to solenoids.
Neutral - Voltage to one solenoid.
Reverse - voltage to both solenoids.
Keep the above in mind

The "Gluggy Milkshake" solution indicates a mass of water within the gearcase which perhaps is interfering with the shifting process (rust, corrosion, whatever). Just in case you didn't come across the following, it's important that you understand the Hydro Electric Shift setup so I am inserting it here.
********************
(Hydro Electric Shift System Explained)
(J. Reeves)

NOTE 1 -The ohm reading of the individual shift solenoids should be between 5 to 6 ohms. The ohm meter should be set to low ohms. The shift wires leading to the solenoids must be disconnected when being tested.

NOTE 2 - The solenoid plunger measurement must be made with the solenoid placed within the lower unit. The measurement must be approximately 1/64" beneath the top surface of the solenoid... NOT above the solenoid surface nor any lower than 1/64" of the solenoid surface. This factory measurement is critical and will not ever change UNLESS someone has tinkered with it.

The shifting setup of the lower unit is what's called a "Hydro Electric Shift", which is quite complex consisting of voltage being applied to solenoids in the lower unit which in turn change oil passages via a oil pump that supplies various pressure on a spring loaded shifter dog. The wires leading to the lower unit (at the powerhead) are "Green" and "Blue". The engine must be running or cranking over in order to shift out of forward gear.

You CAN NOT use HI VIS lube in that lower unit. You MUST USE what OMC calls "Premium Blend" lube, commonly called "Type C". (A thinner lube)

Note: The engine must be running OR have the driveshaft turning by some other means in order for the engine to shift.

In neutral, you need 12v to the "Green" wire.
In reverse, you need 12v to both wires, the "Green" one and the "Blue" one.
In forward, there should be no voltage to either wire. (The spring loaded shifter dog forces the unit into forward gear)

To check the lower unit for proper shifting to make sure you have no trouble there, remove the spark plugs to avoid problems and to allow a higher cranking speed.

This next step eliminates the actual shift switch in case problems may exist there.... Disconnect the blue & green wires at the knife connectors (the rubber insulated boots) leading to the lower unit at the powerhead, then using jumpers, take voltage direct from the starter solenoid to apply voltage to the "Green" wire for neutral, then both wires 'Green" & "Blue" for reverse (Remember the engine must be cranking over in order to shift).

With no voltage applied, the unit should be in forward. No need for a ground jumper... the lower unit's already grounded. You may crank the engine with the key switch or by energizing the starter solenoid with a jumper wire.

********************
 
Thanks for the reply Joe! I have read your "Hydro Electric Shift System Explained" many times in various posts and it is what's enabled me to get as far as i have :)
I am confident the shift switch and electronics are working as intended.
I can apply power to the solenoids directly with the motor running and it still does not shift out of the default forward (clockwise) direction.

I concur the gluggy milkshake was water mixed with oil. Is this likely to have caused problems in the oil pump or valve housing? Perhaps stuck with corrosion? When i power the solenoids with the solenoid cover removed, the plungers do not pull down. It seems to me like maybe the shift levers or something in the valve housing is stuck.

Getting to the oil pump/valve housing looks like quite a job so i was hoping to avoid pulling them out unnecessarily.

Can you confirm that the solenoid plungers should pull down approx 1/8"-3/16" from their resting position of 1/64" below the solenoid top when powered? Or are the solenoid bodies supposed to move up in the LU casing?
 
Of course, I assume that you know that the engine must be running (driveshaft must be turning) in order for that unit to shift... but it does need mentioning here.

Which way the solenoid plunger moves is a action I never once gave any thought to, however as with any solenoid, it would pull, not push. I would assume it is a downward action. The plunger being only 1/64" below the top of the solenoid, I would think the plunger could only go one way anyhow. How far?.... I'll look it up later.

Getting at the oil pump is a hassle... Needed are: heavy duty snap ring pliers, a wrench for the driveshaft nut with one side ground via a grind-wheel so as to clear the shifter dog, threaded rods to remove/install the oil pump (slide hammer no doubt required).

No problem for someone that's done that job a 1000 times... but, for the first timer... year, a little frustrating. I can only wish you luck.
 
You need that wave washer for proper operation.-------But bypass all electrics and test as follows.----Remove lower unit---Remove solenoid cover.------Put visegrip on driveshaft spline.------Use something to prevent damage to the splines off course.-------Push down gently on the solenoids and plunger.------Turn driveshaft.------Does it shift to neutral after one turn ?----Does it shift to reverse after 2 turns ?
 
Oooh good idea Racer, ill try that this evening.

Joe, i have those tools to pull the oil pump but it sounds like a big job. The water in the gearcase oil worries me though. Does water enter via the propshaft seals (ie i have to disassemble it anyway)? The gasket for the solenoid cover is old but looks intact.

I noticed the whole area above the solenoid cover/water pump housing fills with water when running on muffs. i assume this is normal?
 
It is not a big / difficult job.-----Make sure solenoids and plungers are out before trying to remove the pump.-----Water can enter via the following.-----Propshaft seals / driveshaft seals / o-rings on bearing housings / o-rings on the 4 propshaft bearing housing screws / solenoid cover gasket / oil drain and fill screws / wire where it goes into the solenoid cover.
 
The solenoids pull the plunger down when energized. BUT you are expecting it to happen with the cover removed. Ain't going to happen. Instead, teh solenoid body moves upward because the cover is not holding it down. As near as I can tell, the system is working in that area.

The two levers hold ball valves against their seats when the solenoids hold them down. When running, oil pressure is trying to raise them up, but the solenoid overpowers the oil pressure, holding them down. When not running, no oil pressure to raise them, so they are down as far as they can go. This area sounds like it is working also.

In all probability, the shift plunger is stuck in the oil pump because of dirty oil (neglect and leaks). Very common result and well known. It is microscopic grit that is jamming it, not bug chunks. Sorry, it needs to come totally apart. Be careful when dealing with that plunger. The fit is a very close tolerance, and too loose is just as bad or worse than too tight.

EDIT: Yes the whole midsection housing above the solenoid cover fills with water when running. Normal, again.
 
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Thanks for the informative reply gator, that's exactly what i needed to know!! Your second paragraph confirms what i had been wondering about the lever and ball arrangement. I can lift the top lever manually so it must be sitting downwards due to no oil pressure.

I had to work late last night so didn't get a chance to run racer's test but i did knock up a quick jig to hold the LU on the bench properly, and made a simple adaptor to turn the driveshaft easily without damage. A short piece of 3/4" ID rubber hose, with a 1/2" socket pressed into one end, the other slid over the driveshaft and 2 hose clamps done up tight. Now i have a 1/2" square drive ready to accept a breaker bar or drill to turn the shaft.

I will quickly try racer's test of holding the solenoids by hand and spinning up oil pressure next, but i suspect ill be pulling the whole gearcase apart for new seals and a thorough clean of the pump.

Any special tips for pulling the gearcase apart? From the parts diagram, it "looks simple enough"..... famous last words! Does the driveshaft/water pump have to come out?
 
You need that wave washer for proper operation.-------But bypass all electrics and test as follows.----Remove lower unit---Remove solenoid cover.------Put visegrip on driveshaft spline.------Use something to prevent damage to the splines off course.-------Push down gently on the solenoids and plunger.------Turn driveshaft.------Does it shift to neutral after one turn ?----Does it shift to reverse after 2 turns ?

We have a winner!!!
This afternoon i flushed the gearcase out with fuel again and then refilled with clean ISO 68 hydraulic oil.
Holding the plunger and solenoid body down i was able to get neutral after approx 2 turns. I had to remove the top solenoid body to get a finger onto the bottom plunger, but once i could push both down i had reverse as well :)
Next up i tried powering the solenoids, and just holding the bodies down by hand... 2 turns later i had neutral, another 2 and i had reverse!! Woo Hoo!!!

Couldn't find any wave washers around the workshop but did manage to find an o-ring that was just the right size to sit atop the solenoid and take up the remaining 0.080" or so to the cover. I chose an o-ring rather than turning up an alloy or delrin spacer in case some "spring" effect was needed.
Now the big test, bolt the solenoid cover back on, apply power and what do you know both gears work!!!!

Reinstalled the lower unit, fired the motor up on muffs and for the first time the prop wasn't turning :) Spent 15 minutes or so running it though F, N, R and everything selects as it should. Prop neutralises and stops spinning in approx 1.5 seconds, and it engages both gears with a quiet but satisfying thunk.

So i would put the issue down mostly to the lack of wave washer and possibly also still having some contaminated oil in the gearcase.

Thanks very very much gents for sharing your knowledge and allowing me to get this old girl back to working condition. She is an oldie, but worth saving i think. Only a couple of jobs to go and it will be off for it's maiden water test :)
I have a couple of other questions not related to the shifting that i will start separate threads for if i cant work them out on my own.
 
Well thanks to everyone's help i was able to take the boat out for the first time over the weekend and things went great! The Selectric shift system worked flawlessly, with me able to select N and R consistently. I am still running 68 weight hydraulic oil due to unavailability of Type C locally.

The motor hums along very nicely and seemed to run well across all operating conditions.
I quickly checked the link & sync before i left which both looked good, i also adjusted the WOT throttle stop as it was set to only about 3/4 open for some reason.
I was able to push the small (15') boat upto 31 knots at WOT 5500rpm... "Singing like a bird"
It does bog down for a few seconds from rest getting out of the hole, i am wondering if some hydrofoils above the prop may help this. If im doing more than about 5 knots it accelerates quickly without lag and seems to plane well over about 15 knots.

I was a little surprised at the fuel usage, my 6 gal tank lasted less than an hour of hooning around, is this normal?

I need to get the hydraulic trim working a bit better but otherwise the boat is great!
My only other thought was that 5500rpm is right at the top of the RPM range of the motor. Should i be looking at changing the prop or is this ok?

Here are a couple of pictures from the weekend (Lake Wellington, Victoria, Australia):
boat 1.jpg


boat 2.jpg


boat and trugga.jpg
 
The hydraulic tilt/trim doesn't come up very far, and slowly retracts from the upwards position on its own. Hoping it just needs more bleeding although i suspect the ram needs new seals. When i bought the boat, the unit was filled with ATF and not working. i flushed it out and am now running 10w30 engine oil (it specifies SAE20 which i believe i have used the correct substitute).

The bracket also appears to not be installed correctly, the whole motor tilts sideways slightly before coming up. I tried once to trim while driving and it made the boat turn port abruptly so i just left it trimmed all the way in from then on.


Ill grab some pictures this morning. From my research it actually looks more like a Merc unit than an Evinrude one...
 
Hi racer here are some pics of the tilt system. It is a single ram unit. From all the pics ive seen on google this looks more like a Merc unit?

The 3 button control seems to act oddly:
The top and middle buttons on their own do nothing.
The bottom button on its own causes the solenoid to click in and nothing else.
Top and middle button together runs the pump and tilts the motor up slowly.
Bottom and middle button together runs the pump and drops the motor down (quite quickly).

I would have thought the solenoid should be active on the UP operation rather than the DOWN


You can see there appears to be a bolt missing from the tilt bracket into the transom. The bolt hole on the opposite side is also unused. Am i correct in assuming these should be bolted through the transom?
When tilting up, the whole bracket moves sideways. You can see the starboard side of the pivot pin rise before the motor even tilts. It also takes a couple of seconds of the pump running before the motor actually tilts upwards.



tilt 1.jpg


tilt 2.jpg


tilt 3.jpg
 
All bets are off with a unit like that.--------Impressive work I would say.------There are NO BOLTS missing on the transom bracket.-----All those brackets use 2 bolts for the bracket and one bolt to hold the motor down in the bracket on each side.
 
The "missing" bolt hole is an alternate for boats where some obstruction prevents use of the lower bolts. You are good to go.

BTW, you Australian guys amaze me.
 
Thanks guys. Am i correct in assuming this is not the original unit for this motor and it has been adapted to suit? I bought the boat like this.

This is a bit confusing as i don't know the correct terms so here is a pic with some made up ones:
tilt 5.jpg


The Outer Bracket(s) are bolted to the transom with 2 bolts per side.
The Inner Bracket is bolted to the Outer Bracket with 1 bolt per side "Bracket Bolt" however is not physically bolted to the transom.
I can introduce considerable slop between the Inner and Outer Brackets with a pry bar against the transom.

I have also uploaded a short video showing the issue i am referring to:
http://technicoracing.com/imageuploads/20190206_105529.mp4

Watch the small "ear" to the left of frame, which is part of the Inner Bracket.
The ear moves up or down before the motor does, and lifts the whole Pivot Point upwards rather than rotating it. This is the same slop i can create with a pry bar, and i think this is what makes the boat turn if i try to trim up while underway.

Note "Broken Casting" around the Bracket Bolt.... the ram is clearly trying to pull the whole unit down rather than rotating it about the Pivot Point.

I feel that if the "missing" bolts (circled in BLUE) were added this would stop the Inner & Outer Brackets being able to move in relation to each other, and all the effort from the ram would be put into tilting the motor about the Pivot Point instead.

Also note how violently the motor comes back down, doesn't quite seem right


**************************************************************
So i guess the main question is.... Although the "missing" bolts are not required, is there any harm in adding them? I feel as though this would solve the problem.
**************************************************************

Sorry for the long winded post!!

 
This unit was adapted from the factory tilt system.--The bracket is from the factory unit---Not a good idea to try to use it at full throttle !!-------You could put a bolt in the blue circle if it makes you happy.--------I am always concerned about boats that have an aluminum or steel plate added where the motor bolts on.-----Makes me wonder how solid / safe the boat really is !!
 
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I think you are about to lose the motor overboard the way it is. The "outer brackets bolt to the boat. Then the "inner brackets slide in behind the "outer brackets and are kept from rising back up and out by the "bracket bolts". The "bracket bolts" screw onto the "inner bracket" where it is broken, so they are not holding it down properly. Furthermore, it looks like the tilt tube is missing. It acts as a hinge pin through the "pivot point" for the tilt. It is the vital part connecting the motor to the "inner bracket" and takes the thrust of the motor. That's why I say it can go for a deep swim.

Yes, the add-on tilt is being improperly used. The bracket it is attached to is for power tilt only, NOT for Tilt and Trim. No wonder things are breaking.

The circled holes are for what I said--alternate locations. Putting a bolt through them will secure the inner brackets to the bolt, but the motor is still about to jump out and leave the inner brackets behind.

If you have a way of looking at a similar boat at a marina or something, you might get a better idea of how it all works.
 
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Thanks Gator, i understand what you are saying however the tilt tube is fitted, its just cant be seen in the photos. The motor would definitely have gone for a swim without it!

So the consensus would be to add the missing bolts, hard mounting the Inner Bracket to the boat to reduce the stress on the Bracket Bolts.
And then not use the hydraulics to trim the motor at speed, use it only for tilting the motor in shallow water at low speed?

I presume then the only trim adjustment for the boat is via the long pin that goes into one of the five holes on the Inner Bracket? And i should leave the motor tilted down so it is resting on the long pin under power. It would have been great to be able to adjust the trim while underway for best speed but i guess i can live without.

Sorry for all the noobie questions. Im pretty green when it comes to boats!!
 
--------I am always concerned about boats that have an aluminum or steel plate added where the motor bolts on.-----Makes me wonder how solid / safe the boat really is !!

Im not sure how safe or solid any 45 year old fibreglass boat would be!! This one has clearly had a few repairs over the years. I only paid $400 for the boat, motor and trailer so i guess i cant ask too much!
I do accept that the boat probably doesn't have too many years left in it, but it is a good starting point for my girlfriend and I without breaking the bank. Hopefully one day we can upgrade to something a little nicer.
 
I had a couple of hours spare to work on the boat yesterday.
I added the 2 "missing" bolts and retightened all the other bolts connecting the motor and ram to the transom and now things seem much more stable. The motor tilts up and down on the tilt tube with no sideways movement at all :)
I also machined up a small sleeve to take up the 0.080" of slop where the ram connects to its transom mount.

I bled the hydraulics as best as i could and now the ram starts moving immediately when you push the buttons rather than the pump "winding up" first.
The issue of the motor slowly falling from the tilted position is now much improved, although still slightly there. It drops almost imperceptibly slowly now although i would still like it better, so it can hold position indefinetely.
Hoping there is still some air in the hydraulics and not worn seals in the ram.


What is the proper bleed procedure for this type of ram? There are 3 bleed screws in total. One above each hose coming into the ram and one at the bottom, behind the lower pivot joint.
I will have one more go at bleeding the system before pulling the ram apart for new seals.


Thanks again lads for all the help.
 
You have 2 bleeding screws on this system one for up and one for down one is the pan head screw at the top the other one is lower down in the picture the pipe is covering it cant see it nicely but thats the down bleeding screw leave the oil filling cap off when you bleed it then put it back when you finished .the motor must be in the up position .
 
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Hi Joe, quick question, posts keep saying motor won't shift unless motor is running. am i mistaken that it won't start in gear? just boight a boat with a '72 65273S.
it seems to be in gear and i get nothing from turning the key. do you know where i cab get drawings and stuff for this motor?

thanks for any help
Tim
 
When the motor is NOT running it will be in forward gear.----When you try and start this motor it will be in gear until the starter turns the flywheel ONE TURN and it will put it into neutral.-----The 72 models may have a neutral safety in the shift switch and a safety switch on the throttle arm too.-----Electric shift is simple and very reliable too.
 
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