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Thread: starter trouble

  1. #1

    Default starter trouble

    The new starter on my 5.7 L mercruiser is barely able to turn the engine over. Compression ratio is reportedly around 8:1 and the starter is rated at 100 ft-lbs of torque. Using two new and fully 560 amp starting batteries. Is the starter too small or is it misaligned?

  2. #2
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    Default Re: starter trouble

    Or maybe you have a bad connection/bad ground or your engine is just about locked up.
    Chris
    Dockside Marine Services
    Jersey Shore.
    Mercruiser/Mercury Certified
    Let the insanity begin.

  3. #3

    Default Re: starter trouble

    Chris, thanks for the reply. I'll check the connections and ground wire. The engine and flywheel are new. I re-powered a 1986 Chaparral with a Summit crate engine. The starter issue seems to be the last problem.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: starter trouble

    New install, I would say you definitely have a bad or missing connection somewhere.

    Assuming it is a sterndrive, if you do not find a bad, loose or missing connection and the engine still has a problem turning, I would pull the drive off and try it again.
    Chris
    Dockside Marine Services
    Jersey Shore.
    Mercruiser/Mercury Certified
    Let the insanity begin.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: starter trouble

    Are you using a HTGR/PMGR starter motor.... or are you trying to use the old 1986 style Non-Gear Reduction style starter motor?

    If not using a
    HTGR/PMGR starter motor...... do yourself and your battery bank a favor, and install one!

    And yes.... by all means check all Positive and Negative cable connections..... including the connections at the rear of your MBSS (main battery selector switch)!

    If by chance your MBSS is an old Perko, consider replacing it with one that has heavier contacts!


    .
    Rick ... aka Ricardo..... AQ series Volvo Penta repair
    Portland, Oregon
    28' SDN F/B w/ twin Volvo Penta 5.7L DP's

    Please... no PMs! Post your questions on the forum.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: starter trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by RicardoMarine View Post
    Are you using a HTGR/PMGR starter motor.... or are you trying to use the old 1986 style Non-Gear Reduction style starter motor?

    If not using a
    HTGR/PMGR starter motor...... do yourself and your battery bank a favor, and install one!

    And yes.... by all means check all Positive and Negative cable connections..... including the connections at the rear of your MBSS (main battery selector switch)!

    If by chance your MBSS is an old Perko, consider replacing it with one that has heavier contacts!


    .
    Geeeeeeeeee

    My 1987 350 mercruiser OEM starter of 31 years still works just fine and my last battery lasted 9 years!

    Useless information as usual.
    Jack
    Northborough Ma
    Helping others sometimes with an attitude....haha..

  7. #7
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    Default Re: starter trouble

    As usual, Jack missed the point!
    Rick ... aka Ricardo..... AQ series Volvo Penta repair
    Portland, Oregon
    28' SDN F/B w/ twin Volvo Penta 5.7L DP's

    Please... no PMs! Post your questions on the forum.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: starter trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by RicardoMarine View Post
    As usual, Jack missed the point!
    THE POINT? The point is you make a post that has nothing to do with the question. You try to IMPRESS with your long winded "supposed expert" opinion. Completely off topic.
    Who cares what starter he is using, whether an old style high torque or a new style high torque gear reduction/permanent magnet. Again nothing to do with the QUESTION. Also do you get off attempting to baffle others with your chronic stupid abbreviations! Pathetic!
    Jack
    Northborough Ma
    Helping others sometimes with an attitude....haha..

  9. #9
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    Default Re: starter trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Ego

    THE POINT? The point is you make a post that has nothing to do with the question. You try to IMPRESS with your long winded "supposed expert" opinion. Completely off topic.
    Who cares what starter he is using, whether an old style high torque or a new style high torque gear reduction/permanent magnet. Again nothing to do with the QUESTION. Also do you get off attempting to baffle others with your chronic stupid abbreviations! Pathetic!

    Amazing response by Jack..... simply amazing!





    The OP's thread title : Starter trouble

    The OP's post: "The new starter on my 5.7 L mercruiser is barely able to turn the engine over.
    Compression ratio is reportedly around 8:1 and the starter is rated at 100 ft-lbs of torque.
    Using two new and fully 560 amp starting batteries.
    Is the starter too small or is it misaligned?"


    Chris and I gave him a few things to consider.
    One would be electrical connections (both Pos and Neg), and one would be the starter motor itself!


    Meanwhile..... have a laugh!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by RicardoMarine; 01-05-2019 at 09:58 AM.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: starter trouble

    Jack may be off his med`s or need a little loving cause he dosent usually respond like that

  11. #11
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    Default Re: starter trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by Bt Doctur View Post
    Jack may be off his med`s or need a little loving cause he doesn't usually respond like that
    Bt Doctur, I loved your sarcasm!


    I'm not sure what's up with him........... it would be nice if he could be polite and adult like!


    .
    Rick ... aka Ricardo..... AQ series Volvo Penta repair
    Portland, Oregon
    28' SDN F/B w/ twin Volvo Penta 5.7L DP's

    Please... no PMs! Post your questions on the forum.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: starter trouble

    ..."I'm not sure what's up with him"

    New Years Eve hangover, perhaps?

    A half century ago, when I was working my way through college, I made a few bucks by "rebuilding" GM starter motors. The bushing at the bendix end would wear enough to make the starter unable to spin the motors over when they were hot. I replaced the bushings and charged a 'reasonable' fee (and made a tidy profit since the parts cost less than a buck!) My "rebuilt" starters fired the motors up, hot or cold, without a problem.

    I'm writing all this to illustrate how critical the gear clearance between the bendix and flywheel is for proper starter operation. That .030 " or so wear in those bushings was all that it took to prohibit spinning the motors over.

    Jeff

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    Default Re: starter trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by fastjeff View Post
    ..."I'm not sure what's up with him"

    New Years Eve hangover, perhaps?

    A half century ago, when I was working my way through college, I made a few bucks by "rebuilding" GM starter motors. The bushing at the bendix end would wear enough to make the starter unable to spin the motors over when they were hot. I replaced the bushings and charged a 'reasonable' fee (and made a tidy profit since the parts cost less than a buck!) My "rebuilt" starters fired the motors up, hot or cold, without a problem.

    I'm writing all this to illustrate how critical the gear clearance between the bendix and flywheel is for proper starter operation. That .030 " or so wear in those bushings was all that it took to prohibit spinning the motors over.

    Jeff
    Agreed.
    But, think how many key starts an automotive starter has vs a marine starter. Besides it is doubtful that he is spinning the original starter.

    The problem I see when asking for advice in a forum like ME is that too much information is given.(IE ten different things to check and no starting point) There is an order of operations that must be followed. When too much information is given the OP is going to be overwhelmed.
    Chris
    Dockside Marine Services
    Jersey Shore.
    Mercruiser/Mercury Certified
    Let the insanity begin.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: starter trouble

    ......................
    Quote Originally Posted by fastjeff View Post
    ..."I'm not sure what's up with him"

    New Years Eve hangover, perhaps?
    Jeff, perhaps..... but why so often???? New Year's Eve occurs once a year only!


    A half century ago, when I was working my way through college, I made a few bucks by "rebuilding" GM starter motors. The bushing at the bendix end would wear enough to make the starter unable to spin the motors over when they were hot. I replaced the bushings and charged a 'reasonable' fee (and made a tidy profit since the parts cost less than a buck!) My "rebuilt" starters fired the motors up, hot or cold, without a problem.
    I can imagine so!

    I'm writing all this to illustrate how critical the gear clearance between the bendix and flywheel is for proper starter operation. That .030 " or so wear in those bushings was all that it took to prohibit spinning the motors over.
    I agree.

    Jeff, my point (the one that Jack missed) was to explain the differences between the old school Non-Reduction starter motor and today's HTGR/PMGR starter motors, and to mention the possibility of a bad Positive or Negative cable connection that can hinder the performance of the old style starter motors.


    The old school starter motors (particularly the old Bendix style motors) are AMP Hungry, and are inefficient to say the least.
    The old Bendix style uses quick armature torque to kick the Bendix drive out into the ring gear.
    The old Delco style uses a solenoid and lever actuator to kick the pinion/sprague clutch into the ring gear.
    New or not, neither of these would be good for the OP.

    Whereas today's HTGR/PMGR motors require less AMPS, offer more torque to the flywheel, and spin the pinion gear approximately 3 Xs the speed of the old school motors.
    Rick ... aka Ricardo..... AQ series Volvo Penta repair
    Portland, Oregon
    28' SDN F/B w/ twin Volvo Penta 5.7L DP's

    Please... no PMs! Post your questions on the forum.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: starter trouble

    .......................
    Quote Originally Posted by Docksidemarineservices View Post
    Agreed.
    But, think how many key starts an automotive starter has vs a marine starter. Besides it is doubtful that he is spinning the original starter.

    Post #1.....
    "The new starter on my 5.7 L mercruiser is barely able to turn the engine over. "

    It may be new, but it may be the old school motor! Yes/No?

    The problem I see when asking for advice in a forum like ME is that too much information is given.(IE ten different things to check and no starting point) There is an order of operations that must be followed. When too much information is given the OP is going to be overwhelmed.

    Chris, when I read the "string", I do not see an over-whelming abundance of info.
    Plus, if an OP becomes over-whelmed, perhaps the job is above his pay grade to begin with!
    No offense to the OP here!
    Last edited by RicardoMarine; 01-06-2019 at 11:37 AM.
    Rick ... aka Ricardo..... AQ series Volvo Penta repair
    Portland, Oregon
    28' SDN F/B w/ twin Volvo Penta 5.7L DP's

    Please... no PMs! Post your questions on the forum.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: starter trouble

    Some GM starters (not sure if this is the case here) require shimming to work properly. If this is one of theos, that would explain the problem. Like with the worn bushings (that helped me pay my way through college) the starter will drag like crazy if the gear mesh (bendix gear to flywheel) is off. We used to insert a wire gage between the teeth to set the shim thickness correctly.

    Jeff

  17. #17
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    Default Re: starter trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by fastjeff View Post
    Some GM starters (not sure if this is the case here) require shimming to work properly. If this is one of theos, that would explain the problem. Like with the worn bushings (that helped me pay my way through college) the starter will drag like crazy if the gear mesh (bendix gear to flywheel) is off. We used to insert a wire gage between the teeth to set the shim thickness correctly.

    Jeff
    Jeff,

    Although shimming was once a common practice, It is extremely rare anymore.

    I have performed many starter replacements both marine and auto. Haven't had to shim a starter in almost 30 years and I have checked many with a steel pin of the recommended diameter between the starter gear and flywheel gear. All within a margin of error. not to tight and not to loose.


    Also doing such a check on the majority of marine starters is impossible with the way engine compartments are configured.

    Unlike the days of old, the mounting bolts and engine casting holes for marine are a fairly tight fit so there is not much margin for error. The old days, back when Ricardo was working on lawn mowers only and simply needed a new pull cord for starting, the starter housing mounting holes and bolts were, lets say were a loose fit not to mention the engine casting threaded holes were not always in the exact locations either.

    90% of marine starter failure is typically the solenoid contacts. They get all carbonned up and many get a lot of moisture which causes poor electrical contact.

    When working in the business We replaced the starter not serviced it. Get em in and get them back on the water!

    After which I would look at the replaced starters and almost always found the solenoids as the root cause.

    I would carefully disassemble them and clean all the contacts and the starter would work like new.

    I used a marine starter for many years in my street car, Small block '72 Nova with headers and all and never had a hiccup.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Jack
    Northborough Ma
    Helping others sometimes with an attitude....haha..

  18. #18
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    Default Re: starter trouble

    Neat ride! I'd love to update my 86 Ranger with a V-8 and a 6 speed but lack a garage.

    Jeff

    PS: The car in my thumbnail is a Fiero with a body kit I used to build. Also made a blue one as well with a Caddy V-8 in it.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: starter trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by kghost View Post
    Jeff,

    Although shimming was once a common practice, It is extremely rare anymore.

    I have performed many starter replacements both marine and auto. Haven't had to shim a starter in almost 30 years and I have checked many with a steel pin of the recommended diameter between the starter gear and flywheel gear. All within a margin of error. not to tight and not to loose.


    Also doing such a check on the majority of marine starters is impossible with the way engine compartments are configured.

    Unlike the days of old, the mounting bolts and engine casting holes for marine are a fairly tight fit so there is not much margin for error. The old days, back when Ricardo was working on lawn mowers only and simply needed a new pull cord for starting, the starter housing mounting holes and bolts were, lets say were a loose fit not to mention the engine casting threaded holes were not always in the exact locations either.

    90% of marine starter failure is typically the solenoid contacts. They get all carbonned up and many get a lot of moisture which causes poor electrical contact.

    When working in the business We replaced the starter not serviced it. Get em in and get them back on the water!

    After which I would look at the replaced starters and almost always found the solenoids as the root cause.

    I would carefully disassemble them and clean all the contacts and the starter would work like new.

    I used a marine starter for many years in my street car, Small block '72 Nova with headers and all and never had a hiccup.
    Marine starter. 66 ChevyII
    Click image for larger version. 

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Views:	15 
Size:	61.7 KB 
ID:	19380
    Chris
    Dockside Marine Services
    Jersey Shore.
    Mercruiser/Mercury Certified
    Let the insanity begin.

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