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Honda 225 - won't respond to throttle over 4200 RPM

Honda dealer just rechecked the numbers via Dr Honda and TPS is reading 49% at idle and 99% WOT, which seems much better to me. I guess there was some confusion in the tech's notes and the service mangers understanding.

Thanks for the help - I'm keen to demystify this stuff as best I can :)

I might spring for the Dr Honda cable, so I can explore some of this myself as I learn more. My first newbie task will be changing fluids and filters.
 
That sounds more like what it should be. I'm still puzzled why the TPS didn't throw an alarm and a "7" code.

If you are interested, send me an e-mail at [email protected] and I will return my detailed maintenance schedule with,notes, part numbers, and keys to specific pages in the Helm Shop Manual. In that schedule, I cover 100, 200, 400, 800, and 1200 hours.
 
Well... sadly this case is not closed.

Went to pickup boat today. Seemed normal, but when I went to open it up in calm waters it pretty much behaved the same as before - capping at 4100ish. I took it back to dealer and did seatrial with tech. It’s weird as trimmed WAY up he was able to get both into 6k range but took a long time to get up there. I drove with my usual trim style and was able to reproduce problem, port engine capping, starboard going up happily. We had dr Honda hooked up and he took a lot of notes but pretty much said he was stumped and needs to talk to Honda. The vtech was kicking in as expected. He said something about rocker arm in vetch and possible dirty injectors they would have to send off to get tested. He kept falling back on “well it’s an old engine, we don’t normally see them this old”. Compression was within range and valve adjustment needed some minor tweaks but was close. After just throwing $3k at this for zero gain I’m getting tempted to drop in a new 225 and try and see if anyone wants to buy the old one. I did ask about his thoughts on repowerung to 250s be he didn’t recommend - said they have intake issues and the 225 is more reliable.

Cant say I’m overwhelmingly impressed with my Honda dealership experience at this point
 
The member on here will team together and we will help you get it fixed, The TPS, MAP and sometimes a BARO sensor is also fitted and the IAT you have to be 100% all these sensors are within there specs specified ,they are the main ones to keep the correct air to fuel ratio.
 
chawk_man said:
I've never had to fool with the TPS on my engine, so I can't help you there. Testing procedure starts on page 5-33 of the helm manual. Voltage to TPS should be between 4.75 - 5.25 at closed throttle. Not sure it's the same for a K1 engine.

I've never thought it's required to change the oil after a valve adjustment. The oil filter should take out any carbon particles that may come loose.
Click to expand...
Note: 0.44 V-0.56 V Closed and 4.49 V - 4.85 V Open
 
Here is what I think from the information you've given - you have a fuel restriction at high demand. Three places to immediately look...

1. Most obvious - Look where the fuel line comes into the engine at that big black grommet on the front of the engine where fuel line and cables enter the engine compartment. It is not unusual at all for the fuel line to get pinched there because of corrosion build up, or just plain weakness in the line. It's a lousy diagram, but part # 3 at:
https://www.boats.net/catalog/honda...-xa-2003/front-cover-bracket-front-lock-shaft

2. The fuel pressure regulator could be clogged or malfunctioning. Best way to test that is test the fuel pressure at idle with vacuum tube removed. Spec is 41 to 49 psi.

3. As always on these engines, the HP fuel filter is always a suspect. But in addition to that there are several other fuel filters and screens. I'll try to attach a full list.

View attachment Fuel filters and screens on BF 200 and BF 225.pdf

You've got a great engine and there is no need to junk it because some dealer can't figure out the problem.
 
I'll pass theories onto the dealer, as I left boat with them so can't explore them myself. I know they did the regulator test - which is why they replaced hi pst pump as it was only giving them 25 psi. I'll double check they inspected all filters. I see hi pst filter, but no others on the invoice.

Here's the most perplexing thing to me on the fuel-starvation theory...

When this first occurred the most noticeable change was a substantial increase in GPH on the port (bad) engine. Is this an overlooked clue? They always used to be almost perfectly matched at same RPM. I always reset the total-burn counter every time I fill up, and it's always been (and still is) precise to within +/- 1 gallon. So if the total-burn is accurate, I don't see a reason to think that the GPH dials would be incorrect when running, plus it seems unlikely that the burn-gauge coincidentally has "gone bad".

So if the port engine is being 'starved' for fuel, wouldn't the GPH be LOWER than the starboard engine at same RPM, vs significantly higher.
 
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Not sure whether or not there should be a significant difference between the engines' burn rate. The checks I described above are pretty simple to do, so it won't hurt to eliminate those as problems. The only filter change that is a bit difficult is the last one - the one on the starboard fuel rail.

Have you tried swapping ECU's just to make sure the problem isn't there?
 
After saying last week that compression checked out "within spec", Honda dealer just came back with this:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"He did find a fuel line on the engine with a sharp bend in it and it isn’t a Honda fuel line. It’s an aftermarket hose. He also did a compression and leak down test on the cylinders. The compression is 1-155, 2-70, 3-150, 4-150, 5-130, 6-160 psi. The leak down was 1-47% rings exhaust, 2-98% exhaust valve, 3-55% ring exhaust, 4-56% ring exhaust, 5-67% ring exhaust, 6-36% ring exhaust. The leak down percentage should be 5 TO 10%. I’ve attached a service report for the port engine for you to look at. Low compression in that one cylinder and the blow by on the rings is why the port engine isn’t performing as well as the stbd engine."[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]My shop manual says compression should be 199-228 psi - so all those numbers seem to suck. The leak-down numbers are also all way over 10% which seems bad too.

Thoughts? Time for a new motor?

[/FONT]
 
Nothing attached.

Except for #2 cylinder, those numbers are not TOO bad if the engine was tested cold, which is likely.

Before trashing that motor, I would do a severe de-carboning job - repeat two or three times. It is possible that you have a large amount of carbon build up on the rings and valves, possibly caused by that after-market fuel hose with the sharp bend. For #2 cylinder, you probably need to pull the head and inspect the valves.

As a general statement, I've really never heard of one of these J35 Honda blocks wear out the rings, unless the oil changes were totally skipped. I've seen the equivalent auto engines with 300,000 miles on them still have decent compression. What kills them most often is a failed timing belt.

On the other hand, if you'r simply tired of screwing around with it, and you can afford to change out the engines, why not? You could likely recover a significant cost of the re-power by parting out the old engines and putting them up on eBay, or pay someone to do it for you, and split the returns.
 
here's the attach, not that exciting - just dr honda output with hours etc. forum tool won't accept the PDF - so here's a JPG of it..

attach.jpg
 
A little more dealer info:

"He did say when he was doing the compression test this time, when he did the #2 cylinder that the pressure was up to 125 and then he heard a hiss noise and went to the #3 and got 150 and back to #2 and it was 70psi. Then he did the leak down and saw the poor numbers. As far as the fuel hose, that’s the only thing he’s found and that really isn’t an issue at this time."

So I guess we can close the case on this thread due to engine wear.

Pulling head will be beyond my skill set, and paying someone to keep working on this engine seems futile. At this point I'm leaning towards new motor, there seems to be several old-style 225s (without the new black side-venting and color-change) in the local dealerships that will match my 2015-era engine with only 200 hours. If I try and get another season or two out of this motor, seems like will be harder to find style-match later on.

Hoping I can find someone that is interested in taking the motor complete maybe as a project. While I LOVE taking things apart that I don't have to put back together - don't have the bandwidth to part it out. There's sparkly new o2s, hi/lo fuel pumps, throttle-body in there that have less than an hour on them :)

Thanks for all the input - this is an awesome community - I'm sure I'll be back.
 
My final options ended up $10.5k for new powerhead or $16.5k for new 2018 K3. I'm going with the new engine, seems the most reliable choice.

Was quite the challenge to find a 2018 K3. The only one in the Seattle area distribution center was white, otherwise they are all 2019's which are an entirely different beast - based on the same block as the 250, requires new controls and gauges and apparently would not pair with my other K3 as it has different power characteristics / gearing. So choice was find a 2018 or re-power both $$$$.

In the end I found a regular K3 one and dealer is changing out lower unit for a counter-rotate.

I'm really surprised Honda doesn't keep a back-stock of older engines, the transition is going to be a painful one for other twin-owners that need to replace a motor in the next few years.
 
What is it that they won't fix these engines, we do it all the time, can't believe you are chucking out a 2015 motor with 200 hrs on it , such a waste.
 
There is something wrong if they can't pull the heads off and assess the damage for a few hundred dollars. As a matter of interest, what is the warranty period on your motor?
 
I’m keeping the 200hr k3 as it’s a good match for new k3. I’m going to try and find a buyer for the 2800 hr k1 with compression issues.
 
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