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  1. #1
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    Default Winterizing the Raw Water Cooled engine with the Camco or Star Brite do-it-yourself winterizing syst

    Winter is approaching, and the time for winterizing will be here soon... unless you are in a warm climate.



    Always follow your OEM service manual for the correct winterizing procedure for YOUR engine.
    DO NOT use any of these short cut kits!

    Please take a few minutes and read my write-up. Read it twice if need be.

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-r...at_pdctrvw_srp

    If you have any questions, feel free to post them.

    Rick ... aka Ricardo..... AQ series Volvo Penta repair
    Portland, Oregon
    28' SDN F/B w/ twin Volvo Penta 5.7L DP drives

    "Intellectual growth should commence at birth and cease only at death." Albert Einstein

    Please... no PMs! Post your questions on the forum.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Winterizing the Raw Water Cooled engine with the Camco or Star Brite do-it-yourself winterizing

    What is considered a warm climate? Sacramento, CA gets a few cold mornings every winter where the temp drops below freezing for 4-5 hours to as low as about 26F, but then warms up to well above freezing. I've talked to a few marine repair shops in the area and they just laughed when i asked them if I needed to winterize my engine. So, I rarely ever have and have not had any issues, but always wondered if should or not.
    1972 17' Delta V-Hull Runabout
    AQ130C / 270

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Winterizing the Raw Water Cooled engine with the Camco or Star Brite do-it-yourself winterizing

    CA gets a few cold mornings every winter where the temp drops below freezing for 4-5 hours to as low as about 26F,
    Ayuh,..... That's cold enough, long enough to bust the block,.....

    At the very least, Drain the water from the boat,.....

    Drainin' all the water is how I winterize up here, where -40 f is seen, usually for several days a year,.....
    Any Grease is Better,... Than No grease at All....

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Winterizing the Raw Water Cooled engine with the Camco or Star Brite do-it-yourself winterizing

    Quote Originally Posted by bondo View Post
    Ayuh,..... That's cold enough, long enough to bust the block,.....

    At the very least, Drain the water from the boat,.....
    Thanks....yes, I normally do that. Is it best to leave the drains open or closed after doing that?
    1972 17' Delta V-Hull Runabout
    AQ130C / 270

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Winterizing the Raw Water Cooled engine with the Camco or Star Brite do-it-yourself winterizing

    I'd close them. "Forgetting to close them again before launch could be....amusing.
    Capt Bob
    1969 23ft ChrisCraft Lancer
    Merc 5.7L 260HP/ Volvo 280

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Winterizing the Raw Water Cooled engine with the Camco or Star Brite do-it-yourself winterizing

    Quote Originally Posted by RicardoMarine View Post
    Winter is approaching, and the time for winterizing will be here soon... unless you are in a warm climate.



    Always follow your OEM service manual for the correct winterizing procedure for YOUR engine.
    DO NOT use any of these short cut kits!

    Please take a few minutes and read my write-up. Read it twice if need be.

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-r...at_pdctrvw_srp

    If you have any questions, feel free to post them.

    Ricardo.... I'm not that familiar with the details of those kits, but from what I do know, I was wondering if they would be OK for boats with closed cooling systems... ( not that its an issue for me)
    Capt Bob
    1969 23ft ChrisCraft Lancer
    Merc 5.7L 260HP/ Volvo 280

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Winterizing the Raw Water Cooled engine with the Camco or Star Brite do-it-yourself winterizing

    Quote Originally Posted by am_dew View Post
    Thanks....yes, I normally do that. Is it best to leave the drains open or closed after doing that?
    Leave them open.
    Place the stops in a baggie and attach the baggie to the helm wheel.
    You will not forget to re-install them.
    Rick ... aka Ricardo..... AQ series Volvo Penta repair
    Portland, Oregon
    28' SDN F/B w/ twin Volvo Penta 5.7L DP drives

    "Intellectual growth should commence at birth and cease only at death." Albert Einstein

    Please... no PMs! Post your questions on the forum.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Winterizing the Raw Water Cooled engine with the Camco or Star Brite do-it-yourself winterizing

    Quote Originally Posted by sandkicker View Post
    Ricardo.... I'm not that familiar with the details of those kits, but from what I do know, I was wondering if they would be OK for boats with closed cooling systems... ( not that its an issue for me)


    Yes, they are OK for engines fitted with a Closed Cooling System.

    However, if you read or saw an advertisement for one (stating that they work for the raw water cooled engine), and if you were not savvy to how the system actually works, you could misinterpret the usage...... of which is as clear as mud anyway.
    Even the You Tube videos are misleading.
    Rick ... aka Ricardo..... AQ series Volvo Penta repair
    Portland, Oregon
    28' SDN F/B w/ twin Volvo Penta 5.7L DP drives

    "Intellectual growth should commence at birth and cease only at death." Albert Einstein

    Please... no PMs! Post your questions on the forum.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Winterizing the Raw Water Cooled engine with the Camco or Star Brite do-it-yourself winterizing

    I have a closed system. I just plumbed a tee with hose barbs and a ball valve on the intake side so I can add antifreeze. On the output side of the pump I also added a tee with a ball valve to drain the engine. I drain the engine and risers first then add antifreeze to the system while it's running until I see pure antifreeze coming out the exhaust. I then pump all my fresh water from the holding tanks and add RV 4 gallons of antifreeze and pump it through the hot water heater and through all the cold water lines. I fill my toilet with RV antifreeze and pump it through the system as well. Then I'm ready for another long Alaskan winter.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Winterizing the Raw Water Cooled engine with the Camco or Star Brite do-it-yourself winterizing

    I've stored my two boats in Sacramento region for 30+ years with no freezing problems. "Winterizing" my AQ131A consists of opening all the raw water drains on the exhaust manifold, draining the raw water pump and heat exhanger by loosening impeller access plate and of course, leaving the outdrive in the down position.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Winterizing the Raw Water Cooled engine with the Camco or Star Brite do-it-yourself winterizing

    ...................
    Quote Originally Posted by otnot View Post
    I have a closed system. I just plumbed a tee with hose barbs and a ball valve on the intake side so I can add antifreeze.
    That will work in order to protect the seawater side of your system.

    On the output side of the pump I also added a tee with a ball valve to drain the engine.
    With a Closed Cooling System, a valve in this location would not drain the engine, and I'm not quite sure why you would want to for a closed cooling system.
    If you are wanting to drain the seawater side of the Heat Exchanger, you would remove the pencil anode.


    I drain the engine and risers first then add antifreeze to the system while it's running until I see pure antifreeze coming out the exhaust.
    Perhaps I'm not quite understanding you.
    Above you say "I have a closed system", of which I understood to mean a Closed Cooling System.



    I then pump all my fresh water from the holding tanks and add RV 4 gallons of antifreeze and pump it through the hot water heater and through all the cold water lines.
    Perhaps consider installing a WH bi-pass valve kit.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    The kit allows us to drain the WH (and leave it dry), then switch the valving to "winter" mode. Once in winter mode, you will then pump your RV antifreeze through not only the cold lines, but also the hot lines until it reaches all fixtures.
    Doing this does two things:
    .... it prevents antifreeze dilution which may occur within the WH tank.
    .... it saves you the extra RV antifreeze that would otherwise be required for your 6 or 12 gallon capacity WH.


    I fill my toilet with RV antifreeze and pump it through the system as well. Then I'm ready for another long Alaskan winter.
    The point of the thread is to warn us about the risks involved when using one of these Camco or StarBrite kits for the raw water cooled engines.

    For the raw water cooled engine, if you insist on using a kit, just drain everything afterwards.

    For a Half Closed Cooling system (block/heads only), the concerns would be the seawater side of the H/E and the exhaust system.
    Drain these afterwards (eliminating dilution) and you should be OK.



    For a Full Closed Cooling system (block/heads/manifolds), the concerns would be the seawater side of the H/E and the exhaust Elbows.
    Drain these afterwards (eliminating dilution) and you should be OK.

    Rick ... aka Ricardo..... AQ series Volvo Penta repair
    Portland, Oregon
    28' SDN F/B w/ twin Volvo Penta 5.7L DP drives

    "Intellectual growth should commence at birth and cease only at death." Albert Einstein

    Please... no PMs! Post your questions on the forum.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Winterizing the Raw Water Cooled engine with the Camco or Star Brite do-it-yourself winterizing

    I found this pretty cool 3 way valve for draining a system or flushing. The cheapest was on Amazon and they offer sizes from 1/2 to 1 1/2.
    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00JS27E4G...748420_TE_item

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Winterizing the Raw Water Cooled engine with the Camco or Star Brite do-it-yourself winterizing

    Quote Originally Posted by otnot View Post
    I found this pretty cool 3 way valve for draining a system or flushing.
    I'm not sure how this valve would help drain-down an engine.

    As for using it during flushing a RWC Engine with RV antifreeze, I believe that you would be back to the same issues as with the Camco or Star-Brite systems.


    .
    Rick ... aka Ricardo..... AQ series Volvo Penta repair
    Portland, Oregon
    28' SDN F/B w/ twin Volvo Penta 5.7L DP drives

    "Intellectual growth should commence at birth and cease only at death." Albert Einstein

    Please... no PMs! Post your questions on the forum.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Winterizing the Raw Water Cooled engine with the Camco or Star Brite do-it-yourself winterizing

    IMHO, best suited for routine flushing/winterizing FWC engines with engine mounted raw water pumps. The line to the valve on the right side of the widget above should be a hose into a 3 to 5 gal bucket with a free running hose into it, NOT hard connected to a running (pressurized) hose.


    Quote Originally Posted by otnot View Post
    I found this pretty cool 3 way valve for draining a system or flushing. The cheapest was on Amazon and they offer sizes from 1/2 to 1 1/2.
    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00JS27E4G...748420_TE_item
    Capt Bob
    1969 23ft ChrisCraft Lancer
    Merc 5.7L 260HP/ Volvo 280

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Winterizing the Raw Water Cooled engine with the Camco or Star Brite do-it-yourself winterizing

    No matter what system you use or practice you use,you MUST drain everything first. Simply pumping it in till you see it out the exaust is no guarantee of proper freeze protection

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Winterizing the Raw Water Cooled engine with the Camco or Star Brite do-it-yourself winterizing

    For those who did not read the Amazon review..........


    Customer Review

    unfavorable
    ByRicardoMarineon October 30, 2012


    NO...... I cannot support the use of this product given how most users interpret it's intended use for the raw water cooled Marine Engine!
    The kit description does indeed use the word "Winterizer"! We associate "winterize" with freeze protection. Furthermore, we will find/see web hosted videos showing these products being used in a misnomer fashion that may put the owner's raw water cooled engine at risk of freeze damage.
    (please read on)


    In my opinion, the manufacturer (of these or similar products) would be wise to provide full disclosure and details that fully explain (a.) the Raw Water cooled I/O and I/B engine T-stat housing, (b.) the sea water "by-pass" porting, (c.) and explain to the user that most all sea water (raw water cooled engine) is being directed towards and out the exhaust system. (sea water = antifreeze when the kits are being used)
    As it is, the user may inadvertently believe that when he/she sees kit supplied antifreeze exit the exhaust, that his/her engine will be filled with "un-diluted" antifreeze, and that their engine will be protected against freeze damage.
    This is not true!

    Let me explain:

    With any Raw Water Cooled Marine I/B or I/O engine, only a portion of the supplied sea water is required for actual engine cooling demands, compared to that which a sea water pump is capable of supplying (for both engine and exhaust demands).

    The "porting" within the T-stat housing allows for a proportionate division of sea water.
    .... The engine circulating pump charges the engine block with the amount of coolant (sea water) required via T-stat's open position. In other words, the T-stat holds back coolant on an "As Needed" or "On Demand" basis.
    .... The greater balance of coolant (sea water) is being sent to and out the exhaust system.

    In simple terms; this means that more sea water (antifreeze when the kit is being used) is actually sent to and out the exhaust system, compared to what actually enters the engine block/heads. (until we reach engine loads that require greater cooling demands).
    This is pretty much the case with any Raw Water Cooled I/O or I/B marine engine.

    The warming up of the engine in order for the thermostat to open prior, is also a misnomer, and in particular when these kits are introducing the antifreeze during low RPM and no engine loads.

    Now we connect up the Camco Kit antifreeze container:

    Again...... keep in mind that during this rather short operation/duration, only a portion of the limited 4-5 gallons of Camco Kit antifreeze actually makes it's way into the engine cooling system. The greater portion of the Camco Kit antifreeze is going right on out the exhaust system (just as the sea water does)!

    The user must understand that when he or she sees antifreeze exit the exhaust, this is NOT an indicator that un-diluted antifreeze made it's way into and out of the engine block and cylinder heads. Any antifreeze that has made it's way into the engine block has likely become diluted from the residual seawater!
    If the user is not educated regarding this........, then he or she may be left with a "False-Positive", so to speak!

    As said... by the time he or she finishes up, any Camco Kit antifreeze that DID make it into the engine, may have now become diluted by the residual engine block sea water.
    However, if we begin with a completely drained engine block, the likelihood of antifreeze dilution is greatly reduced.

    These kits are intrinsically an OK idea if in the hands of a professional Marine Mechanic. The Marine Mechanic will likely drain everything afterwards anyway.
    However, in the wrong hands, and when the user is lacking the understanding of the above info, it can leave them with freeze damage come spring time.

    For those who insist on using these kits, probe your drain ports and drain completely afterwards, and you should be OK.

    OEM service manuals will always suggest to completely drain engine components of all sea water during the winterizing procedure.

    The need for the rust inhibiting properties of antifreeze (during the lay up) are greatly exaggerated, IMO. The amount of rust/corrosion that could occur during the lay up are paled by comparison to that which occurs during the normal season's usage.
    If you're after that "feel good" feeling, then do it, but drain again afterwards.
    Otherwise, winterize according to your OEM manual.

    Remember.... just plain air will not freeze, expand, and crack our expensive cast iron components.

    Rick ... aka Ricardo..... AQ series Volvo Penta repair
    Portland, Oregon
    28' SDN F/B w/ twin Volvo Penta 5.7L DP drives

    "Intellectual growth should commence at birth and cease only at death." Albert Einstein

    Please... no PMs! Post your questions on the forum.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Winterizing the Raw Water Cooled engine with the Camco or Star Brite do-it-yourself winterizing

    Due to the time of year, I've given this 2 year old thread a bump!
    Rick ... aka Ricardo..... AQ series Volvo Penta repair
    Portland, Oregon
    28' SDN F/B w/ twin Volvo Penta 5.7L DP drives

    "Intellectual growth should commence at birth and cease only at death." Albert Einstein

    Please... no PMs! Post your questions on the forum.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Winterizing the Raw Water Cooled engine with the Camco or Star Brite do-it-yourself winterizing

    MerCruiser has required antifreeze for a number of years. It is now in the owners manual and all service manuals.

    https://www.mercurymarine.com/en/us/faq/?category[]=outboard-winterization-and-storage&category[]=mercruiser-winterization

    QUESTION:
    Do I need to put antifreeze into the raw-water/seawater section of the cooling system after draining?


    ANSWER:
    MerCruiser requires the use of propylene glycol antifreeze (with a rust inhibitor for marine engines) in the seawater section of the cooling system. Damage caused by freezing or improper winterization is not covered by the limited factory warranty.


    QUESTION:
    Do I still need to have winterization performed by my dealer if I have a self-drain system on my engine?


    ANSWER:
    The drain system on your engine is NOT intended to replace full winterization. It is for extending your boating season by allowing the cooling system to be drained after use if there is a risk of light freezing weather and you will be boating the next day. For full extended winter storage, after completely draining the cooling system, Mercury MerCruiser requires the use of propylene glycol antifreeze (with a rust inhibitor for marine engines) in the seawater section of the cooling system. The fuel system must have fuel stabilizer added and the system must be fogged with 2-cycle oil. We recommend that your product be winterized by an authorized MerCruiser dealer. Damage caused by freezing or improper winterization is NOT covered by the limited factory warranty. This is also a good time to have scheduled maintenance performed on your engine by your dealer.

    Volvo Penta now requires antifreeze during any layup over 2 months. I have not seen it in operators manuals or workshop manuals yet. But it is covered in a storage service bulletin 05-2-2 ver 3


  19. #19
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    Default Re: Winterizing the Raw Water Cooled engine with the Camco or Star Brite do-it-yourself winterizing

    ..................
    Quote Originally Posted by muc View Post
    MerCruiser has required antifreeze for a number of years. It is now in the owners manual and all service manuals.
    Ok.... but what means are they suggesting for introducing the AF into the engine?

    Also, are they suggesting this for the Raw Water Cooled engines, or for the engines with Closed Cooling Systems?


    https://www.mercurymarine.com/en/us/faq/?category[]=outboard-winterization-and-storage&category[]=mercruiser-winterization

    QUESTION:
    Do I need to put antifreeze into the raw-water/seawater section of the cooling system after draining?

    ANSWER:
    MerCruiser requires the use of propylene glycol antifreeze (with a rust inhibitor for marine engines) in the seawater section of the cooling system. Damage caused by freezing or improper winterization is not covered by the limited factory warranty.
    Please read their disclaimer!
    AF Dilution (by residual seawater) is the number 1 reason for not doing this, particularly if you DO NOT know exactly what you're doing!
    If you're after that "Feel Good Feeling", go ahead and do it..........., but drain it again afterwards!

    QUESTION:
    Do I still need to have winterization performed by my dealer if I have a self-drain system on my engine?

    ANSWER:
    The drain system on your engine is NOT intended to replace full winterization. It is for extending your boating season by allowing the cooling system to be drained after use if there is a risk of light freezing weather and you will be boating the next day. For full extended winter storage, after completely draining the cooling system, Mercury MerCruiser requires the use of propylene glycol antifreeze (with a rust inhibitor for marine engines) in the seawater section of the cooling system. The fuel system must have fuel stabilizer added and the system must be fogged with 2-cycle oil. We recommend that your product be winterized by an authorized MerCruiser dealer. Damage caused by freezing or improper winterization is NOT covered by the limited factory warranty. This is also a good time to have scheduled maintenance performed on your engine by your dealer.
    Again, read their disclaimers in that paragraph.
    AF Dilution (by residual seawater) is the killer.

    Also, I don't see where it mentions that we DO NOT "fog" FI or MPI engines. We fog carbureted engines only.
    The process for FI or MPI engines is different.


    Volvo Penta now requires antifreeze during any layup over 2 months. I have not seen it in operators manuals or workshop manuals yet. But it is covered in a storage service bulletin 05-2-2 ver 3
    Please read the thread title again, and please read my Amazon write-up.
    https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/R3BD7X6QC3KCFR?ref=pf_vv_at_pdctrvw_srp

    Manufacturers typically DO NOT mention:
    ..... that a serviceable Gimbal Bearing should be lubricated with the engine operating at idle speed. (Dynamic -vs- Static lubrication)
    ..... that Volvo Penta PDS bearings should
    be lubricated with the engine operating at idle speed. (again..... Dynamic -vs- Static lubrication)
    ..... that a seawater pump impeller will survive longer when it has been removed for the winter lay-up.
    ..... that the drive shaft bellows will survive longer if the drive is stored in the fully down and straight ahead position. (Merc does allude to this)


    I'd say that these companies want to sell parts!

    Also, the single point drain systems should be removed. (more on that later if interested)



    .
    Rick ... aka Ricardo..... AQ series Volvo Penta repair
    Portland, Oregon
    28' SDN F/B w/ twin Volvo Penta 5.7L DP drives

    "Intellectual growth should commence at birth and cease only at death." Albert Einstein

    Please... no PMs! Post your questions on the forum.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Winterizing the Raw Water Cooled engine with the Camco or Star Brite do-it-yourself winterizing

    Ok.... but what means are they suggesting for introducing the AF into the engine?
    Volvo has their recommendation in the service bulletin. I don't agree with it, but it's there. When I disagreed with their recommendation in tech school, I was told to do it anyway that I wanted as long as I could guarantee the system was full of proper antifreeze. Kind of like how you like to grease bearings.
    MerCruiser doesn't. But in tech school they recommend muffs.


    Also, are they suggesting this for the Raw Water Cooled engines, or for the engines with Closed Cooling Systems?
    All engines.

    Please read their disclaimer!
    AF Dilution (by residual seawater) is the number 1 reason for not doing this, particularly if you DO NOT know exactly what you're doing!
    If you're after that "Feel Good Feeling", go ahead and do it..........., but drain it again afterwards!
    I don't blame them for not covering freeze damage. If someone doesn't know what their doing. They probably should learn, or not do it. Would you tell someone to not change their gear lube because you're worried they won't do it right? As a mechanic, why would you recommend against a factory required process?

    Also, I don't see where it mentions that we DO NOT "fog" FI or MPI engines. We fog carbureted engines only.
    The process for FI or MPI engines is different.
    Yes the fogging process has changed. It's covered in service bulletins and service manuals. What's your point?

    Please read the thread title again, and please read my Amazon write-up.
    Don't need to read it again. I agree that it is marketed wrong. But I like and use this product when I need to winterize away from the shop. Agree that all the water must be drained first, in most situations.

    that a seawater pump impeller will survive longer when it has been removed for the winter lay-up.
    Yes some manufacturers recommend this, usually with the big and expensive impellers where it makes $$$ sense to spend the labor.

    Also, the single point drain systems should be removed. (more on that later if interested)
    Funny you bring the single point system up. That system pretty much proves my point on storing an engine full of the proper antifreeze. We will have over 50 of these in storage this year. And guess what, all of the single point systems work perfectly. But these engines have been properly maintained by factory trained techs using the correct procedures and materials.

    The biggest problem I see with DIY or low grade service providers is the antifreeze they use. The pink stuff for $2.00 - $3.00 a gallon is crap. Not enough rust inhibitor and a base that uses alcohol and/or glycerine. also they use tap water. We all know never to mix tap water with antifreeze. Always use distilled or deionized water.

    Remember the new engines are aluminum blocks, You don't want them empty or worse, full of alcohol/water.






  21. #21
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    Default Re: Winterizing the Raw Water Cooled engine with the Camco or Star Brite do-it-yourself winterizing

    Muc, you have posted some great questions and responses.
    Let me address them one by one for the group and for the DYRs who might be reading this thread.


    Quote Originally Posted by muc View Post
    Ok.... but what means are they suggesting for introducing the AF into the engine?
    Volvo has their recommendation in the service bulletin. I don't agree with it, but it's there. When I disagreed with their recommendation in tech school, I was told to do it anyway that I wanted as long as I could guarantee the system was full of proper antifreeze. Kind of like how you like to grease bearings.
    MerCruiser doesn't. But in tech school they recommend muffs.
    If by "muffs" you mean introducing AF via the water muffs (such as how these Camco and StarBrite kits work), that is exactly what I'm talking about regarding the Raw Water Cooled marine engine.
    In my write up, I've given what I believe to be a fairly thorough explanation as to why we DO NOT want to use these kits!


    Also, are they suggesting this for the Raw Water Cooled engines, or for the engines with Closed Cooling Systems?
    All engines.
    Again, it's all explained in my write up, and primarily for the Raw Water cooled engines.
    I don't see the same issue when used for the engines with Closed Cooling Systems.


    Please read their disclaimer!
    AF Dilution (by residual seawater) is the number 1 reason for not doing this, particularly if you DO NOT know exactly what you're doing!
    If you're after that "Feel Good Feeling", go ahead and do it..........., but drain it again afterwards!
    I don't blame them for not covering freeze damage. If someone doesn't know what their doing. They probably should learn, or not do it. Would you tell someone to not change their gear lube because you're worried they won't do it right? As a mechanic, why would you recommend against a factory required process?
    Because that factory process is incomplete.
    It does not suggest draining the AF again afterwards as to avoid AF dilution by residual seawater.

    Also, I don't see where it mentions that we DO NOT "fog" FI or MPI engines. We fog carbureted engines only.
    The process for FI or MPI engines is different.
    Yes the fogging process has changed. It's covered in service bulletins and service manuals. What's your point?
    My point is..... Fogging an engine involves a dynamic process whereby the fogging solution is introduced into a running engine.
    We do this at around 1,100 RPM or so, and it can be done in as little as 10 or 12 seconds if you know what you're doing!

    Ideally, the person spraying the solution into the primary throttle bores would continue doing so while the ignition is cut.
    Cutting the ignition (while continuing to spray) prevents the fogging solution from undergoing combustion while the rotating assembly comes to rest.

    With the MPI engine, we don't spray a fogging solution into the air intake.
    Instead, an oil enriched fuel mixture is introduced into the fuel delivery system.
    It is only being introduced while the MPI and ignition system are active.
    In other words ..... the oil enriched mixture undergoes combustion that diminishes it's ability to protect the metal surfaces.

    Please read the thread title again, and please read my Amazon write-up.
    Don't need to read it again. I agree that it is marketed wrong.
    Thank you for concurring.

    But I like and use this product when I need to winterize away from the shop. Agree that all the water must be drained first, in most situations.
    Yes, and drain it again afterwards!
    Each year we will read where someone has used one of these kits (following the instructions), only to learn in Spring Time that they now have a cracked cylinder block, cylinder heads, and/or cracked manifolds or elbows.

    that a seawater pump impeller will survive longer when it has been removed for the winter lay-up.
    Yes some manufacturers recommend this, usually with the big and expensive impellers where it makes $$$ sense to spend the labor.
    I suggest doing this for any seawater pump impeller that is easily accessible.

    Also, the single point drain systems should be removed. (more on that later if interested)
    Funny you bring the single point system up. That system pretty much proves my point on storing an engine full of the proper antifreeze. We will have over 50 of these in storage this year. And guess what, all of the single point systems work perfectly. But these engines have been properly maintained by factory trained techs using the correct procedures and materials.
    The single point drain systems DO NOT allow for probing the drain ports.
    If rust scale is present and is preventing all seawater from draining, we have a problem.
    Say NO to single point drain systems!


    The biggest problem I see with DIY or low grade service providers is the antifreeze they use. The pink stuff for $2.00 - $3.00 a gallon is crap.
    I agree!

    Not enough rust inhibitor and a base that uses alcohol and/or glycerine. also they use tap water. We all know never to mix tap water with antifreeze. Always use distilled or deionized water.
    Yes, that would be correct while using Ethylene Glycol for engine coolant.

    Remember the new engines are aluminum blocks, You don't want them empty or worse, full of alcohol/water.
    Agreed!
    However, I would think that most of the In Board aluminum cylinder block engines would be fitted with Closed Cooling Systems.



    Back to the more common cast iron engines and adding/draining AF for rust prevention, my thoughts are; the amount of rust scale that occurs during the winter lay-up would be paled by comparison to that of which occurs during the normal boating season.
    If you're after that "feel good feeling" then by all means go ahead and add it, but play it safe and drain it again afterwards.

    Just plain ole air will not freeze expand and crack our expensive cast iron components.... never has and never will.



    .
    Last edited by RicardoMarine; 10-24-2020 at 08:48 AM.
    Rick ... aka Ricardo..... AQ series Volvo Penta repair
    Portland, Oregon
    28' SDN F/B w/ twin Volvo Penta 5.7L DP drives

    "Intellectual growth should commence at birth and cease only at death." Albert Einstein

    Please... no PMs! Post your questions on the forum.

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Long Island, NY,
    Posts
    206

    Default Re: Winterizing the Raw Water Cooled engine with the Camco or Star Brite do-it-yourself winterizing

    The problem with those raw water cooling systems comes back to the same thing....the thermostat on an idling engine running on the water hose on a cool fall day will not open enough to ensure that you get enough of a high concentration of AF in the block. So either you drain before running in the AF, or drain and backfill. I think running it in and then draining the AF afterward is a waste of money. I drain manually & back fill and leave it in. Also I do not use -50 or -60 I use either a -100 with corrosion inhibitors or more recently I mix up about 3 gallons of Sierra PG antifreeze 50/50 with water that gives me 6 gallons of -26*F freeze protection PG antifreeze for a cost of about $7.50 per gallon after mixing. The Sierra is actually a PG engine coolant so it has plenty of corrosion inhibitors in it. After mixing with water the Sierra is only about a buck a gallon more expensive than the -60.
    Last edited by louc; 10-24-2020 at 12:36 PM.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Winterizing the Raw Water Cooled engine with the Camco or Star Brite do-it-yourself winterizing

    Ricardo, Both Volvo Penta and MerCruiser require that their engines be stored full of the correct antifreeze. They don't think it's optional or a good idea. It is required.
    They don't want you to drain it out. In fact they require that you leave the complete system full. Muffs are a convenient way to get the system full.
    If you drain the system first and use the correct antifreeze there is no worry about residual water. The very small amount left will mix.
    All current Volvo engines are fresh water cooled blocks, but not the expensive catalyst exhaust manifolds. MerCruiser 4.5L and 6.2L are aluminum blocks and FWC is an option. Most are sold raw water cooled. And the FWC option only does the block. Once again the expensive catalyst exhaust manifolds are raw water cooled.
    Also MerCruiser no longer calls it the single point drain system, they now market as "Season Extender" . I'm guessing they found that there's too much misinformation floating around the internet about how to properly maintain their engines? I'll be the first to admit that I don't know much about saltwater and it's effects on raw water cooled engines, but I do know that here in Minnesota. If you store the engine full of the proper antifreeze, there are no rust flakes to clog the system. Maybe has something to do with needing the presence of oxygen to rust iron?
    Deionized water or distilled water is still preferred with propylene glycol (PG) antifreeze just as much as with ethylene glycol.

    Volvo Penta and MerCruiser spend a lot of money on testing and engineering. They do like to sell parts, but they also want people to be happy with their products. This is why they recommend people properly maintain their products. Things like changing oil and filters ------- and storing their engines full of the correct antifreeze. Proper maintenance is cheaper in the long run.

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
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    Default Re: Winterizing the Raw Water Cooled engine with the Camco or Star Brite do-it-yourself winterizing

    ...............
    Quote Originally Posted by louc View Post
    The problem with those raw water cooling systems (I assume that you meant using the kit on a RWC engine) comes back to the same thing....the thermostat on an idling engine running on the water hose on a cool fall day will not open enough to ensure that you get enough of a high concentration of AF in the block.
    Correct, and that supports my concerns with the Camco or Start-Brite winterizing kits when used by the inexperienced.
    With the raw water cooled engines, most all of the AF (when introduced via the water muffs) will be by-passing the actual engine demands... as I describe in my write-up.
    If this is not understood, look at the porting of a raw water cooled engine's T-stat housing!
    Example only

    Name:  raw water cooling Tstat housing.jpg
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    So either you drain before running in the AF, or drain and backfill.
    No disagreement there!

    I think running it in and then draining the AF afterward is a waste of money.
    No one says that you have to waste the AF. If money is a concern, you could capture it and re-use it the next season.
    But that begs the question; How much is it worth to protect your expensive cast iron components?
    Quote Originally Posted by muc View Post
    Ricardo, Both Volvo Penta and MerCruiser require that their engines be stored full of the correct antifreeze. They don't think it's optional or a good idea. It is required.
    Required is a strong word. I believe that it's more of a recommendation or suggestion!

    They don't want you to drain it out. In fact they require that you leave the complete system full.
    Again, it is a recommendation or suggestion, and it would be just fine if (key word "if") the AF has not become diluted!


    Muffs are a convenient way to get the system full.
    One must first understand the raw water cooled engine's T-stat housing and the by-pass porting within it.
    For these guys who are Hell Bent on doing this, I suggest buying my 55 gallon winterizing kit.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    If you drain the system first and use the correct antifreeze there is no worry about residual water. The very small amount left will mix.
    Understood.

    All current Volvo engines are fresh water cooled blocks,
    I assume that you mean Closed Cooling Systems.

    but not the expensive catalyst exhaust manifolds. MerCruiser 4.5L and 6.2L are aluminum blocks and FWC is an option. Most are sold raw water cooled. And the FWC option only does the block. Once again the expensive catalyst exhaust manifolds are raw water cooled.

    Also MerCruiser no longer calls it the single point drain system, they now market as "Season Extender" .
    Basically the same thing...... correct?

    I'm guessing they found that there's too much misinformation floating around the internet about how to properly maintain their engines?
    I'm sure that they did....especially in some of the YouTube videos.
    In my opinion, the Camco and "like" kits fall into that category.


    I'll be the first to admit that I don't know much about saltwater and it's effects on raw water cooled engines, but I do know that here in Minnesota. If you store the engine full of the proper antifreeze, there are no rust flakes to clog the system.
    Ok..... that leads me to a question; where are the rust flakes coming from in an Aluminum cylinder block that you have now alluded to?

    Maybe has something to do with needing the presence of oxygen to rust iron?
    Correct! Rust is basically Iron Oxide. Oxygen needs to be present.

    Deionized water or distilled water is still preferred with propylene glycol (PG) antifreeze just as much as with ethylene glycol.

    Volvo Penta and MerCruiser spend a lot of money on testing and engineering. They do like to sell parts, but they also want people to be happy with their products.
    Understood!

    This is why they recommend people properly maintain their products. Things like changing oil and filters ------- and storing their engines full of the correct antifreeze. Proper maintenance is cheaper in the long run.
    I like seeing how you changed this to read "recommend".

    Beneath my write-up, you'll see comments left by others. Expand the page by clicking on "show more comments", and then read some of the comments and questions. It will become clear that many owners DO NOT understand their cooling system.

    However, if you work as an employee in the industry, or if you own a Marine repair facility yourself, do as you wish.
    You are the one who will be guaranteeing your winterizing service.


    Look, we all do things a bit differently. Some methods work better than others... some do not.
    For the Do It Yourselfer (who this was originally intended for), I want them to have the best information possible so that they DO NOT make a costly mistake.
    So as you read this thread, put yourself in the shoes of a DIYr.

    See post #1 again and my mention of;
    "Always follow your OEM service manual for the correct winterizing procedure for YOUR engine.
    DO NOT use any of these short cut kits!"




    .
    Last edited by RicardoMarine; 10-25-2020 at 10:47 AM.
    Rick ... aka Ricardo..... AQ series Volvo Penta repair
    Portland, Oregon
    28' SDN F/B w/ twin Volvo Penta 5.7L DP drives

    "Intellectual growth should commence at birth and cease only at death." Albert Einstein

    Please... no PMs! Post your questions on the forum.

  25. #25
    Join Date
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    Default Re: Winterizing the Raw Water Cooled engine with the Camco or Star Brite do-it-yourself winterizing

    Here is a more descriptive image of a typical raw water cooled engine T-stat housing.
    Again... example only.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	raw water cooling Tstat housing.jpg 
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    Even if the thermostat was open, you can see that a great deal of the seawater (AF when the kit is used) would be by-passing the actual engine cooling demands.
    To the un-trained person, they will see the AF exit the exhaust and will think that all is well.


    Again;
    "Always follow your OEM service manual for the correct winterizing procedure for YOUR engine.
    DO NOT use any of these short cut kits! "



    .
    Last edited by RicardoMarine; 10-25-2020 at 10:48 AM.
    Rick ... aka Ricardo..... AQ series Volvo Penta repair
    Portland, Oregon
    28' SDN F/B w/ twin Volvo Penta 5.7L DP drives

    "Intellectual growth should commence at birth and cease only at death." Albert Einstein

    Please... no PMs! Post your questions on the forum.

  26. #26

    Default Re: Winterizing the Raw Water Cooled engine with the Camco or Star Brite do-it-yourself winterizing

    Ricardo, Both Volvo Penta and MerCruiser require that their engines be stored full of the correct antifreeze. They don't think it's optional or a good idea. It is required.
    Required is a strong word. I believe that it's more of a recommendation or suggestion!
    Please read the copy and paste from Mercury Marine's website. Required is the word they use. You can believe what you want, but the fact is they require it.

    They don't want you to drain it out. In fact they require that you leave the complete system full.
    Again, it is a recommendation or suggestion, and it would be just fine if (key word "if") the AF has not become diluted!
    No, again they use the word. Require

    All current Volvo engines are fresh water cooled blocks,
    I assume that you mean Closed Cooling Systems.
    Yes. Volvo uses the letter F in the product designation to mean FWC

    Also MerCruiser no longer calls it the single point drain system, they now market as "Season Extender" .
    Basically the same thing...... correct?
    Yes, exactly the same.

    I'll be the first to admit that I don't know much about saltwater and it's effects on raw water cooled engines, but I do know that here in Minnesota. If you store the engine full of the proper antifreeze, there are no rust flakes to clog the system.
    Ok..... that leads me to a question; where are the rust flakes coming from in an Aluminum cylinder block that you have now alluded to?
    Didn't mean to allude to rust flakes in aluminum blocks. I was referring to your concerns about the single point system on the cast iron blocks. I haven't seen any issues with the aluminum block engines yet. But most of them that we have sold come back for service, and we have been using the correct winterizing
    procedure. My guess is it will take a few years until we start seeing the ones that get abused.

    This is why they recommend people properly maintain their products. Things like changing oil and filters ------- and storing their engines full of the correct antifreeze. Proper maintenance is cheaper in the long run.
    I like seeing how you changed this to read "recommend".
    Thanks for catching that. Yes it should read required.

    See post #1 again and my mention of; "Always follow your OEM service manual for the correct winterizing procedure for YOUR engine.
    DO NOT use any of these short cut kits!"

    I agree with using the OEM service manual. But also people need to realize that service bulletins supersede the service manual. I have agreed with you about how the camco kit is marketed. What I, MerCruiser and Volvo Penta don't agree with is your idea that antifreeze isn't needed or should be drained out if it is used. We think your wrong.

  27. #27
    Join Date
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    Default Re: Winterizing the Raw Water Cooled engine with the Camco or Star Brite do-it-yourself winterizing

    All in fun, guys!



    Click image for larger version. 

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    Rick ... aka Ricardo..... AQ series Volvo Penta repair
    Portland, Oregon
    28' SDN F/B w/ twin Volvo Penta 5.7L DP drives

    "Intellectual growth should commence at birth and cease only at death." Albert Einstein

    Please... no PMs! Post your questions on the forum.

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