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  1. #1

    Default 1970 Johnson 60 HP (60ESL70D) Idle fuel and timing (RPM)

    After reading a lot of threads on here I have gleaned some good info on setting the idle needles, maybe the idle RPMs with the trunnion but that is still not 100 percent. One trial led to decent idling but did not allow the cam to go to full open on the butterflies.

    I have the service manual and J Reeves says not every number in there may be correct. For example the seating and backing out of the idle needle valves. Manual says start at 5/8 and Joe says start at 1 and 1/2 turns out.

    Service manual says set the rod that goes between the throttle lever driven by the cable from the control to the cam that actuates the carb butterflies at 4 and 31/32 inches. Is that correct?

    I modded my ignition using the MSD and dual coil setup with primaries in series with one secondary feeding the distributor and the other grounded. Seems to be no spark problems with that.

    So far I have not gotten a decent smooth low rpm idle. I do get a runs great from off idle to WOT. Top RPMs are 5300 which is about as close to 5500 I am going to get without a custom prop of some kind.

    The one thing that is very problematic with this motor is the lack of a means to have a high idle for warm up or to set a bit of throttle for initial cold start. I have had numerous outboards and I/O driven boats as well as a dual engine straight inboard boat. All of those had the capability to use the throttle without being in gear to get started cold or to warm up before going into gear. After a bit of reading here and some investigation into the Blue Green setup I will be installing a warm up switch. Basically a purple wire on a switch which goes to the green wire outside the rotary switch. In the on position the motor will stay in neutral and allow the the use of some throttle to warm up, clear an engine that has idled for a while, have a good starting set point. The present Start lever just does not add any real butterfly opening.

    The other sticky point is the setting of idle speed with the timing advance lever. The throttle and timing advance lever are loosely tied together and it would be very helpful to have an adjustment screw that allows movement of the timing advance lever without having to move the throttle lever to a point that does not allow for proper full throttle operation. Been there done that. No fun when you have to run a half hour at no wake to even be able to try WOT. And then a half hour back to work on the settings again. I am not going to try tuning in the open waters of Lake Huron without a helper to drive the boat.

    I went back to some original settings today. Wind was so bad I did not even want to try launching to do some fiddling. On the muff it started right up which is good.

    Joe suggested starting this thread for any questions I may have.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: 1970 Johnson 60 HP (60ESL70D) Idle fuel and timing (RPM)

    The factory control had a fast idle feature !!------If it is not working it needs repairs.-------5/8 turn out may well be correct.

  3. #3

    Default Re: 1970 Johnson 60 HP (60ESL70D) Idle fuel and timing (RPM)

    I found this. More confusion for me.

    "All idle adjustments, both mix and rpm must be done with boat in the water.
    This to get the correct back-pressure in the exhaust system.
    The idle rpm MUST be set with engine 'in gear' forward, and boat not tied, about 750 RPM.
    If you try to go below that, engine will be unstable and probably die out on you after a short while.
    If that rpm gives you a too high trolling speed, the only 'normal' option is to change prop to one with lower pitch.
    The idle mix setting however you have to do in neutral, boat still in water.
    While adjusting, try to keep the rpm as low as possible."

    So I mess with a needle valve. RPMS go up. I untie from dock and run the boat forward at idle while trying to set the idle. Back to the dock to mess with needles again. Over and over back and forth. I cannot and will not try to do this sort of fussy tuning on the big waters of Lake Huron. My only choice is to tie up to dock. Try to maintain a course in the channel while simultaneously setting idle so slow it may stall running forward to start motor and then ...

    I have been trying to set idle in gear but tied to the dock. I have been trying to adjust needles in gear and tied to the dock.

    I have never had so much fussing before with outboards.

  4. #4

    Default Re: 1970 Johnson 60 HP (60ESL70D) Idle fuel and timing (RPM)

    Quote Originally Posted by racerone View Post
    The factory control had a fast idle feature !!------If it is not working it needs repairs.-------5/8 turn out may well be correct.
    I have the "Start" lever on the control. It does move the cam, but such a small amount it is not very useful. 5/8 is definitely not correct. In my experience it takes a throttle position that yields about 2000 rpm upon starting to start best. That is on motors with the old square tanks and dual tubes down all the way to modern I/O and Outboards. Same with inboards. Needs a bit of throttle. True multi point EFI with multiple sensors and computers do not need that as every single parameter is controlled to a fair thee well. Old fashioned NO sensor carbureted engines need some throttle to start best and definitely to warm up. Even my Dodge Cummins three computer way over sensored diesel engine has a mode to allow fast idle for warmup in cold weather.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: 1970 Johnson 60 HP (60ESL70D) Idle fuel and timing (RPM)

    Well----5/8 turn out might be correct.-----You need to repair your control / cable to get fast idle !-----Not sure why you compare with cars and diesels here.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: 1970 Johnson 60 HP (60ESL70D) Idle fuel and timing (RPM)

    There is no such component as a "Timing Lever". If you're speaking of the separate lift lever on the control box, that is the warm-up lever to advance the throttle slightly to help start a cold engine. If that does not function properly, something in that area needs reworking and/or adjusting.

    You don't need the rig in the water to do any of this work you mention except for final testing. Some of what you find in the manual will be confusing as you've found out ie my contradicting the needle valve initial setting among other things. This is due to my experience with OMC over some 30+ years as well as many others here... I suggest you listen to us instead of having the manual cause you doubt.

    On a flushette, the final idle setting should be on a..........
    *****
    20" shaft engine = 1000 rpm
    25" shaft engine = 1200 rpm

    When the rig is launched to the water, the idle will drop to the normal setting.
    *****
    Basic troubleshooting we need to know about.
    Remove all spark plugs..... BTW, we need to know what make and type plugs you're using, what gap setting also.

    With all s/plugs removed, check the compression. What are the psi readings of all individual cylinders?

    S/Plugs still removed, check the spark using a tester whereas you can set a 1/4" air gap for the spark to jump. The spark should jump that gap with a strong blue lightning like flame... a real SNAP! Does it?
    *****
    I assume from the comments above that you have a copy of my carburetor needle valve setting instructions for that 3 cylinder model. If not, let me know and I'll upload them here.

    A critical area of adjustment on that engine pertains to the point setting that I've come up with through the years. No, it won't be found in the manual. It needs to be followed exactly.
    ********************
    (Point Setting Of Battery Capacitance Discharge)
    ( Ignition Models - 1968 thru 1972)
    (Some have points - Some do not)
    (Joe Reeves)

    The points must be set to .010 but no wider than .010..... BUT in some instances due to a possible slight inaccurately machined crankshaft lobe or a slight offset of one set of points, a setting slightly less than .010 would be required as follows.

    Whether the crankshaft has two or three lobes, when setting the points, check the setting of the points on each individual lobe by rotating the crankshaft by hand.

    You may find that setting one set of points to .010 on one lobe, then turning the crankshaft to the next lobe, the gap measures .011 or .012 (too wide). This is where you would need to close that gap down to the required .010. A gap too wide can result in a ignition miss when throttle is applied.

    Bottom line, pertaining to the point setting at the various lobe locations____ .010, .010, .009, is okay____ .010, .010, .011 is not!
    ********************
    Let us know what you find.
    We occasionally have questions. If you fail to answer, it may affect ours.

  7. #7

    Default Re: 1970 Johnson 60 HP (60ESL70D) Idle fuel and timing (RPM)

    Quote Originally Posted by racerone View Post
    Well----5/8 turn out might be correct.-----You need to repair your control / cable to get fast idle !-----Not sure why you compare with cars and diesels here.
    Because this is the first engine I have "owned" that does not allow "reasonable" throttle advancement without connecting the load.

    By way of background my first encounter with outboards was in 1947. An Evinrude square tank 10 horse and an Evinrude 4 cylinder 5 horse. Those started with load attached. And believe me that ten horse better have been in true straight alignment with the boat centerline when it started. Otherwise you risked capsizing. The little five horse not so much as it was pretty anemic.

    Since then I have owned every sort and stripe of engine in all sorts of powered items. I ran the engine test facility at the Bendix Research Labs and have an inkling of internal combustion engine operation.

    If you search you will find an entry in a thread which was discussing the alignment of the indicator on the throttle cam. It eventually was cited by Joe Reeves to be aligned properly with the start lever in the start position which has the butterflies just at the point of opening. So there is no throttle advance with that setup. Just a bit of timing advance.

  8. #8

    Default Re: 1970 Johnson 60 HP (60ESL70D) Idle fuel and timing (RPM)

    Joe,

    Thank you for your inputs.

    Joe, to the best of my ability I have read every thread on here regarding the settings of the needles, throttle cam, shift electrical signals blue and green etc etc. As you requested I am not asking individual questions on those old threads. Though each has some particulars that do add a bit to my confusion.

    My plan today is to get my electrical equivalent of the gear shift lever disengagement on manual models installed. IE purple wire to green wire for starting purposes allowing throttle to be advanced without engaging propeller. Switch on disengaged. Switch off normal for this motor operation.

    I will also do some out of the water tuning, which I did not know was possible from the previous threads. All seemed to indicate all of that tuning was to be done in water with the engine in forward gear.

    As far as a timing advance lever and a throttle lever they are indeed loosely connected. With no movement of the throttle lever and thus the throttle cam you can move the timing advance lever toward the direction of less advance. And that by about thirty degrees. I know why that is done. Because full advance is reached long before full butterfly opening on the throttle cam. So that same about thirty degrees of non force travel allows the timing to reach full advance and the throttle to advance from that setting to full butterfly opening.

    The start lever is all but useless as it does not open the butterflies if properly set per your own input on the throttle cam arrow to roller cam contact point. The OP there was told by you that the alignment he wound up with had the Start lever full up and the butterflies just at the point of opening pressure. With the start lever in the down position the roller cam was not close to the alignment arrow on the throttle cam.

    MSD ignition spark on all cylinders
    I do not have a compression tester. However manual rollover of the engine appears to have about the same force required. I have fairly well calibrated my muscles over many years and can set torque with no other indicator but my muscles. Verified the next day on over 100 fasteners by our quality control manager. The young buck working overnight with me was flabbergasted.
    Points good

    I refer to and question the manual at the same time because searching the threads I do not find either confirmation or denial of the accuracy of the setting of the length of the rod from the throttle lever to the throttle cam at 4 and 31/32 inches. I know the manual cannot be all bad.

    I appreciate your wisdom on these engines.

    This engine was operating well before the owner who sold it to me got it from his father in law. He had no motor skills at all and had "Help" from friends. Those friends got this thing all out of adjustment. I am attempting my best to get it back in adjustment. Unfortunately it is just a whole lot different than any other two stroke I have owned from outboards to motorcycles. I believe it will be a nice little motor for my purposes once running well.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: 1970 Johnson 60 HP (60ESL70D) Idle fuel and timing (RPM)

    Error..... Error..... Disregard............
    Last edited by joereeves; 09-22-2018 at 02:10 PM.
    We occasionally have questions. If you fail to answer, it may affect ours.

  10. #10

    Default Re: 1970 Johnson 60 HP (60ESL70D) Idle fuel and timing (RPM)

    Quote Originally Posted by joereeves View Post
    Error..... Error.....
    You are certainly correct that is in error.

    I worked on the idle needles and the rpms by the time I got close the throttle cam was not even close to where it had to be. I adjusted the plastic on the rod so that dimension is more like 5 and 3/16 of an inch. I discovered that one has to use the throttle lever after any RPM adjustment using the trunnion. In other words, freeplay and hysteresis has to be accounted for with the actual controls not just at the motor head. The whole mechanism has so many transfer points that just adjusting by the trunnion does not put the throttle lever and all of its attachments at the "home" position of the controls at all. Have everything dialed in on the muffs.

    Letting it cool down for a cold start in a little while. If that goes well, it will be water dunk time.

    One more question. I have Champion QL77JC4 plugs gapped at 0.035". I have seen some recommend the non resistor L77JC4 non resistor plug. Which is better or are they really equivalent?

  11. #11

    Default Re: 1970 Johnson 60 HP (60ESL70D) Idle fuel and timing (RPM)

    Double post
    Last edited by TTFullTimer; 09-22-2018 at 02:15 PM. Reason: double post

  12. #12
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    Default Re: 1970 Johnson 60 HP (60ESL70D) Idle fuel and timing (RPM)

    No.... I inserted the error message due to a conflict I had on this end pertaining to attachments which took a few minutes to straighten out. However that measurement is indeed to be 4"-31/32" in order for the idle timing to be correct. This measurement holds true for a number of years... through 1976 at least.

    Link & Sync with that measurement set first...... as follow.
    ***************
    1 - Back throttle roller away from metal cam.
    2 - Adjust linkages between carburetors so that all butterflies open and shut at the same time. You do not want a couple butterflies shut and one ever so slightly open.
    3 - Adjust throttle roller so that when the scribe mark is dead center with the roller, the butterflies just start to open.
    ***************

    The "Q" indicates a suppressor plug to quiet ignition noise in electronic equipment.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    We occasionally have questions. If you fail to answer, it may affect ours.

  13. #13

    Default Re: 1970 Johnson 60 HP (60ESL70D) Idle fuel and timing (RPM)

    Went back and remeasured and I was at 5 inches. So I set it at 4 and 31/32 Adjusted all with that setting. Ran well and was ready to get it to the water. Last RPM settings and the hot light went off. It was hot. As it cooled I took temps with an IR gun around the hot sensor to see when it would go off. Off at surface temp of about 165 as it should. When it cooled I removed the thermostat and tested it with hot water. Opens and closes as it should. The gasket for the thermostat itself had a wow in it which probably just acted as a small bypass. I surmised it was the impeller. Poured water into the opening that houses the thermostat and it ran out the bottom leg. So probably no blockage. Took out the plugs and they were fine, a bit dark brown from all the idling setting. No sign of any deposits such as aluminum. Checked the piston tops and cylinder walls with a borescope. A little hard to tell as the light from the borescope was creating some highlights. Also did a scratch test with a fine stiff wire. No indication of any cylinder scoring with either method. Hooked up the muffs with the plugs out and cranked the engine. No water appeared at the thermostat housing area. My guess the impeller is shot. Now another adventure. I believe I replaced one in 1982 on a Chrysler outboard. I remember having to be shiva with six arms to hold all the bits and pieces in alignment as the lower went back on. Looked at the manual and think I know where it is, not sure yet how to get at it. One would think with all the folks that have to replace impellers the pump would be a piece accessible by an inspection sort of plate or such.

    Worst part is I travel full time. Am at an RV park now but my neighbors have left after labor day. One left and I am sure he will help thank god when I have to lift that leg back in place.

  14. #14

    Default Re: 1970 Johnson 60 HP (60ESL70D) Idle fuel and timing (RPM)

    Thanks to Joe Reeves for his patience and assistance. At least I think I have a fighting chance of having a smoother running engine at low RPMs.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: 1970 Johnson 60 HP (60ESL70D) Idle fuel and timing (RPM)

    That's a "Hydro Electric Shift" (electric) gearcase. Find the wires that lead to the lower unit and tie strong string or a wire to them so that you'll be able to pull the electric shift cable back up when installing the gearcase.

    The water pump is probably a two tube type. THere will be nylon guides that normally work their way up the tubes a bit and get locked in place somewhat. A long regular screwdriver of some king of long something with a hook bent in the end of it works nicely to grab onto them and pull them back down for reuse. They sit on top of the water pump in a recessed plate, the purpose of which is to allow you to guide the copper water tubes back into the pump.

    Use a hand held propane torch to help loosen the lower unit retaining bolts. The water pump sits at the front top portion of the lower unit.

    Hint: Hold the impeller housing in your left hand, the impeller in your right hand, Spin the impeller in a counter-wise motion into the impeller housing. Now you can simply slide that assembly down the driveshaft into the waiting impeller key. Any other method is a PITA!
    We occasionally have questions. If you fail to answer, it may affect ours.

  16. #16

    Default Re: 1970 Johnson 60 HP (60ESL70D) Idle fuel and timing (RPM)

    Thanks Joe. I did a little studying on You Tube University and got some of that information. There was one fellow who had an electric shift unit and did the string trick. The hints on the tubes will be a "big" deal for such a seemingly small thing. Preinstallation of the impeller will certainly be a lot easier than trying to stuff a blade at a time into position. Usually only to have some other blade pop out. Or worse yet tearing one up.

  17. #17

    Default Re: 1970 Johnson 60 HP (60ESL70D) Idle fuel and timing (RPM)

    After my little overheat adventure yesterday I decided that discretion is the better part of valor. Got a compression tester. The results are as follows

    Top Cylinder 145 PSI
    Middle Cylinder 150 PSI
    Bottom Cylinder 145 PSi

    I think that there was no damage from the over heat. I think those numbers are pretty good for a 48 year old motor.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: 1970 Johnson 60 HP (60ESL70D) Idle fuel and timing (RPM)

    Quote Originally Posted by TTFullTimer View Post
    The hints on the tubes will be a "big" deal for such a seemingly small thing. Preinstallation of the impeller will certainly be a lot easier than trying to stuff a blade at a time into position. Usually only to have some other blade pop out. Or worse yet tearing one up.
    The psi compression readings you state are great, very close. And the impeller installation I mentioned earlier is really mandatory if you wish to make sure you have a seal between the housing and the impeller plate as well as between the plate and the gearcase housing. Otherwise... getting a impeller in that housing with sealer spread all over it is really yucky!

    BTW... The proper sealer to use is "Bombardier 3M Product #847 and may be listed as Scotchgrip 847, part number 776964." It used to be "OMC Adhesive" but of course that is now a thing of yesteryear. Used to seal water pumps, seal between metal to metal assembly of gearcase to long exhaust housing, O Rings & spaghetti seals... excepting that NEVER is any kind of sealer used on the fuel system... anywhere!
    We occasionally have questions. If you fail to answer, it may affect ours.

  19. #19

    Default Re: 1970 Johnson 60 HP (60ESL70D) Idle fuel and timing (RPM)

    Joe, would it be wise to use that sealer on the thermostat gasket and the thermostat cover gasket? I believe I am learning more about this motor than I ever really wanted to have to know.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: 1970 Johnson 60 HP (60ESL70D) Idle fuel and timing (RPM)

    Nothing on the thermostat gasket..... Gasket sealer on the cover gasket... the kind that comes in a can with a small brush attached to its screw off cap. Here's a bit of advice from my data base:

    ********************
    (Gasket Sealers)
    (Usually available at any reliable automotive parts type store)
    (J. Reeves)

    Do Not use any type of sealer on outboard carburetor or intake manifold gaskets as this would cause blockage of various fuel/air passageways. Also, there are new type gaskets, including head gaskets, which are used through out the engines that are coated with a substance that gives a shinny appearance to them. These gaskets are coated with a self sealer and are to be installed as is.... no sealers! Older style head and fuel related gaskets that are not coated with this substance are to be simply coated with oil.... nothing else.

    All other gaskets (hopefully I've not overlooked anything above) should be coated with Gasket Sealer (the type that comes in a can that has a small brush in its screw off cap). This also pertains to some water pump installations that use a gasket between the plate and the lower unit housing.

    Marprox Sealer 1000 or OMC Adhesive or Boat Armor Sealer 1000 (same substance)[See Below Note] should be used on any metal to metal (Unless GelSeal Is Called For) or metal to plastic surface (such as impeller hsg to plate, and plate to lower unit surface) to eliminate air leaks. It should also be used on the Spaghetti tubing that is used on many powerhead crankcase halves, lower unit skegs, etc. I have found that this substance works quite well on various "O" Rings such as what are found on lower unit carrier and upper driveshaft bearing housings (Note that this substance is obviously not to be used on all "O" Rings). This substance also works quite well in sealing the surfaces between the lower unit and the exhaust housing to which it attaches, eliminating the unsightly water spray between the two after completing a water pump installation.

    NOTE 1: I am under the impression that Marprox Sealer 1000 and Boat Armor Sealer 1000 is no longer available.

    NOTE 2: OMC Adhesive is now Bombardier 3M Product #847 and may be listed as Scotchgrip 847, part number 776964

    DO NOT use any sealer on the large "O" Rings that are used on the upper and lower crankcase heads (The housing/heads that slide over the top and bottom of the crankshaft). On those "O" Rings, use only a coating of grease.

    The exception of surface to surface contacts pertains to the later model matching crankcase (block) halves (which does not incorporate spaghetti tubing) which call for "Gel-Seal", or any other surface that calls for Gel-Seal. This substance seals in the absence of air, and if called for, must be used. One other form of Gel Seal that can be substituted is "Loc-Tite #518". Nothing else that I know of will do!

    I advise against using silicone or permatex (the heavuy black substance in a tube) on a outboard engine. It simply will not function properly. The exception to this (as per OMC's recommendation), is to use the black Permatex (heavily) on the gasket 306242 which separates the inner exhaust tube from the exhaust housing on the 1959 35hp and 1960 to 1970 40hp OMC outboards.
    ********************
    We occasionally have questions. If you fail to answer, it may affect ours.

  21. #21

    Default Re: 1970 Johnson 60 HP (60ESL70D) Idle fuel and timing (RPM)

    Dropped the lower case. I have invented a new breakfast cereal. Impeller crumbles. I have never seen anything like this. The whole impeller was in small pieces in the housing. Well not all of it, beneath the plate were crumbs as shown in the picture. I don't think that lower has ever been dropped before. It was pretty much stuck. A lot of rocking and gentle raps with a rubber mallet got it moving and from there it was just an Armstrong job. The top o ring is not there. From the dried grease on the spline area I am not sure it too did not get destroyed at some time or other. I will have to fish the tube with a wire to see if I can either find it or get evidence of its destruction. This is my first attempt at uploading pictures I think they are attached. I am very fortunate this did not show up as a total failure when I was a couple miles out in the lake. I do have an insurance motor. A little three horse Johnson on a bracket.
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  22. #22

    Default Re: 1970 Johnson 60 HP (60ESL70D) Idle fuel and timing (RPM)

    A little fishing in the driveshaft tube and found the actor formerly known as O ring. I am not sure I could shred one like this if I tried.
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