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  1. #1

    Default Where can I find distributor springs?!

    Looking for advice on replacing the springs, I noticed a lot of people advised checking on these springs if the motor was acting erratic, and I have confirmed that one is intact, and the other is broke and half gone.. I would like to replace them as a set rather than replace just the one..

    I am wondering if these springs will be available at a local automotive parts store, or if they will be different since it is a marine application?!

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Where can I find distributor springs?!

    springs are springs, they come in different weights to change the advance curve . http://www.catalograck.com/ImgVD/MAL...r_23_25_27.pdf
    http://documents.holley.com/mallory_..._kit_29014.pdf

  3. #3

    Default Re: Where can I find distributor springs?!

    By this theory any distributor spring kit at the local automotive part supplier should work?

    I am guessing that it is the original distributor, it has a Chrysler tag on the side. I can get the numbers from the tag if needed.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Where can I find distributor springs?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tifoez View Post
    Looking for advice on replacing the springs, I noticed a lot of people advised checking on these springs if the motor was acting erratic, and I have confirmed that one is intact, and the other is broke and half gone.. I would like to replace them as a set rather than replace just the one..

    I am wondering if these springs will be available at a local automotive parts store, or if they will be different since it is a marine application?!

    Click image for larger version. 

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    DO NOT...... repeat..... DO NOT haphazardly replace the advancing flyweight return springs without knowing exactly what you are doing!
    And please note that very few parts people can tell you which springs would be correct..... especially if from an automotive parts supplier!




    There will be many springs to choose from.
    The value of each spring plays an extremely important role re; the function of the flyweight position as per RPM.
    In other words, these springs control where the flyweights are at a given engine speed.
    The position of the flyweights control the ignition advance.
    Ignition advance is critical that it be correct for a given RPM and throughout the RPM range.
    Plus...... the Marine Ignition Advance curve is quite different from that of Automotive!

    Springs that may be too light, will allow the advance to come on too early.
    I can guarantee that Marine Engine damage will result from this.

    Springs that may be too heavy, will hold back the advance.
    The Engine will lack in power.

    My suggestion:
    Take your ignition distributor into a shop who owns and operates a Sun, Allen or King distributor machine.
    Also take your OEM ignition advance curve in with you. OEM Marine..... NOT automotive!


    They will be able to test, adjust, and return it to you set up correctly.
    They can also re-bush the housing if need be.

    Re-install, set BASE advance and then check the progressive and total advance as per OEM specs.


    Now your engine will be safe and should perform optimally.



    .


    Rick ... aka Ricardo..... AQ series Volvo Penta repair
    Portland, Oregon
    28' SDN F/B w/ twin Volvo Penta 5.7L DP drives

    "Intellectual growth should commence at birth and cease only at death." Albert Einstein

    Please... no PMs! Post your questions on the forum.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Where can I find distributor springs?!

    You might check with "halifaxhops" (Ray) in the following link. He may be doing Marine applications now or can possibly advise on spring sets or contacts for them. Don't loose the partial you have. A wire diameter may help ID that broken spring....………..

    https://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar...butors.412509/

  6. #6

    Default Re: Where can I find distributor springs?!

    Thank you everyone, Ricardo I took your advice and found a local marine "expert" I will not be using just any springs, and I hope this gentleman has the electronic equipment to properly service our distributor..

    Got a name of someone local from two independent sources, gotta wait till morning for his shop to open. Got a number for his personal cell, but not sure if I would be bothering him, so I will patiently wait

    I will keep yall posted!!

  7. #7

    Default Re: Where can I find distributor springs?!

    Quote Originally Posted by daves69 View Post
    You might check with "halifaxhops" (Ray) in the following link. He may be doing Marine applications now or can possibly advise on spring sets or contacts for them. Don't loose the partial you have. A wire diameter may help ID that broken spring....………..

    https://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar...butors.412509/

    Thank you daves69, upon checking that link, I will follow up with Ray regarding my unit. Once we arrive home it seems that he is semi-local to home, so a trip out to him is not out of the question..

    Thanks again for everyones help and advice!!

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Where can I find distributor springs?!

    ..............................
    Quote Originally Posted by Tifoez View Post
    ............... Ricardo I took your advice and found a local marine "expert" I will not be using just any springs, and I hope this gentleman has the electronic equipment to properly service our distributor..
    FYI: most marine repair shops will not be equipped with a Sun, Allen or King distributor machine.
    These old school machines are more likely to be found among Hot Rod enthusiasts.


    New flyweight return spring values may not be equal to what was OEM on a given flyweight system.
    When a mechanically advancing distributor is run on a machine, the operator will be able to watch the advance right in front of him.
    He will be able to change springs and/or tweak the spring hook, etc, in order to correct the curve.

    This can also be done "on engine" by simply watching the advance (from idle through the RPM range), jotting the numbers done (at increments of 250 RPM) and comparing these numbers to the OEM curve.
    Then the springs would either be changed, or the spring hook would be tweaked, etc.
    However, it is so much easier and time effective if done on a machine.


    The slightest variation in flyweight return spring value can cause a dramatic change to the curve, and is the reason for my large red font in my previous post.



    .
    Last edited by RicardoMarine; 07-16-2018 at 09:19 AM.
    Rick ... aka Ricardo..... AQ series Volvo Penta repair
    Portland, Oregon
    28' SDN F/B w/ twin Volvo Penta 5.7L DP drives

    "Intellectual growth should commence at birth and cease only at death." Albert Einstein

    Please... no PMs! Post your questions on the forum.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Where can I find distributor springs?!

    This hunt is proving to be more elusive than I thought. I've called 12 places and they are all referring me to someone else.

    I have located a place called Skipper Buds, and they said they can order the spring kits, but I would have to then take the distributor to someone else who has the distributor equipment to adjust and match both distributors.

    I prefer to retain everything as is and "original" to the boat, however I am starting to wonder if updating the everything to an electrical ignition would be detrimental/beneficial to engine life/performance?
    Last edited by Tifoez; 07-16-2018 at 03:05 PM.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Where can I find distributor springs?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tifoez View Post
    This hunt is proving to be more elusive than I thought. I've called 12 places and they are all referring me to someone else.
    I'm not sure where you're located, but I had my M440 distributor rebuilt at Harry's Marine in Westbrook CT. http://harrysmarinerepair.com/ He is a strictly Chrysler shop.

    Good luck, Noel.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Where can I find distributor springs?!

    ............................
    Quote Originally Posted by Tifoez View Post
    This hunt is proving to be more elusive than I thought. I've called 12 places and they are all referring me to someone else.
    I must say that am not surprised!

    I have located a place called Skipper Buds, and they said they can order the spring kits, but I would have to then take the distributor to someone else who has the distributor equipment to adjust and match both distributors.
    Yes..... that would be very important to do! In my opinion, that is!

    I prefer to retain everything as is and "original" to the boat,
    Yes..... I would agree!

    however I am starting to wonder if updating the everything to an electronic ignition would be detrimental/beneficial to engine life/performance?
    As long as you retain the OEM ignition advance curve, you would be just fine.

    However, to date, no one here on this forum has been able to find a Chrysler Marine Corp ignition advance curve for a given Chrysler Marine Engine. We can find BASE advance specs, but no progressive curve and/or TA!
    We have discussed this many times over the years.


    And again.......
    The slightest variation in flyweight return spring value can cause a dramatic change to the curve.
    If the spring value is too light, it will create an excessively aggressive advance possibly causing cylinder Detonation..... of which is a very destructive phenomenon. I am speaking of "Detonation" not Pre-Ignition. These are two entirely different phenomenons.

    If the spring value is too heavy, it will cause a lazy advance resulting in lack of performance. Typically there will be no engine damage, but no expected good performance either.


    As noted in post #10, try giving Harry's Marine a phone call.
    Perhaps Harry can shoot you a copy of the Chrysler Marine Engine OEM ignition advance curve that we have not been able to find.



    .
    Last edited by RicardoMarine; 07-17-2018 at 09:55 AM.
    Rick ... aka Ricardo..... AQ series Volvo Penta repair
    Portland, Oregon
    28' SDN F/B w/ twin Volvo Penta 5.7L DP drives

    "Intellectual growth should commence at birth and cease only at death." Albert Einstein

    Please... no PMs! Post your questions on the forum.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Where can I find distributor springs?!

    I fired off an email to Harry. If he responds, I will post it.



    I have been responding to a thread on the MarineEngines.com forum in hopes of helping a new member.
    (he has not mentioned which Chrysler engines he is running)


    I have warned him to NOT simply replace these flyweight return springs without knowing exactly what he is doing.

    He needs to acquire a copy of a Chrysler Marine Corp Ignition Advance curve graph..... of which none of us have been able to find thus far.




    Now for my question of you:
    Would you by chance have a Chrysler Marine Corp ignition advance curve graph ...... one that not only shows us BASE advance, but also shows us the progressive curve as well as the total advance at the prescribed OEM RPM ranges?


    As mentioned, no one to date has been able to find a published Chrysler Marine Engine advance curve graph for all of their Marine Engines.


    Help and/or a copy of this would be much appreciated.


    Rick E.
    Rick ... aka Ricardo..... AQ series Volvo Penta repair
    Portland, Oregon
    28' SDN F/B w/ twin Volvo Penta 5.7L DP drives

    "Intellectual growth should commence at birth and cease only at death." Albert Einstein

    Please... no PMs! Post your questions on the forum.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Where can I find distributor springs?!

    BTW...Electronic conversion kits rely on the original (host) distributor's spring/weights to determine the advance curve.
    Capt Bob
    1969 23ft ChrisCraft Lancer
    Merc 5.7L 260HP/ Volvo 280
    1972 22ft Bristol
    Honda 7.5HP 4 stroke Long shaft

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Where can I find distributor springs?!

    Quote Originally Posted by sandkicker View Post
    BTW...Electronic conversion kits rely on the original (host) distributor's spring/weights to determine the advance curve.
    and, if I may ........ the kit’s performance is limited to the host’s shaft bushing condition. Old distributors typically have worn bushings that are in need of refurbishing.



    .
    Rick ... aka Ricardo..... AQ series Volvo Penta repair
    Portland, Oregon
    28' SDN F/B w/ twin Volvo Penta 5.7L DP drives

    "Intellectual growth should commence at birth and cease only at death." Albert Einstein

    Please... no PMs! Post your questions on the forum.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Where can I find distributor springs?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tifoez View Post
    ..
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Do you have this on you distributor?
    Is there a number stamped on it?
    If so that's total advance at distributor. Multiply X 2 for crank .

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Where can I find distributor springs?!

    Quote Originally Posted by daves69 View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Do you have this on you distributor?
    Is there a number stamped on it?
    If so that's total advance at distributor. Multiply X 2 for crank ..... and then add BASE advance to that!

    Dave, as I'm sure you know......... if his distributor has that piece, that piece would provide the limiting. It would not govern the curve.
    The flyweight return springs (plus the ramping of the flyweight cams) control the progressive advance curve.
    This is why the value of each spring is so important.


    Here are a few images of Allen and Sun distributor testing machines. (I can't find a King image)
    The operator turns up the distributor as he watches the advance curve being displayed via strobe light.
    At any time he can stop the machine and make an adjustment.
    He can also verify the dwell angle, and verify that each cylinder fires at an equal spread angle.
    Example: 8 cylinder engine distributor will fire each spark plug @ exactly 45* separation.

    As I mentioned earlier, we can make adjustments while "on engine", but using a machine is so much easier and more accurate.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    These two YouTube videos show testing an automotive distributor with vacuum advance that we are NOT able to use.
    Minus the data being used, the Marine distributor test would be very similar.
    NOTES:
    ...... the RPM shown via the tachometer is distributor RPM and would be multiplied X's 2 for crankshaft RPM.
    ...... also note that the machine can only show distributor advance and cannot show BASE advance that we must add to it when in use.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hur8afp0oYo

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7O82VtuG3w



    Tifoez, I have been doing this since the mid 60s and I have seen damage that can occur from improper ignition advance.
    I am simply trying to spare you from engine damage due to early and/or incorrect ignition advance.

    Do what you are comfortable with..... and good luck!





    .
    Rick ... aka Ricardo..... AQ series Volvo Penta repair
    Portland, Oregon
    28' SDN F/B w/ twin Volvo Penta 5.7L DP drives

    "Intellectual growth should commence at birth and cease only at death." Albert Einstein

    Please... no PMs! Post your questions on the forum.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Where can I find distributor springs?!

    These are two of Harry's responses: (magenta font)


    Tuesday 17th

    If it’s an electronic distributor system, you use the electronic springs – one large and one small one.

    If it’s the points type distributor – you use only the two small springs.

    If it’s a 318, it’s 2-1/2 degrees before top dead center. IF it’s a 360 engine it’s 5 degrees – NO MORE.



    My response back to Harry:
    Harry, thank you very much for responding. However, that did not address my question for you.

    I am suggesting to this man that he take his old and possibly worn distributor in to a shop who owns and operates a Sun, Alan or king distributor machine, and ask that they set it up and verify that it is functioning as per the OEM ignition advance curve.

    The problem is…...... no one has been able to provide a curve graph for any gasoline Chrysler Marine engine.

    I was hoping that you may have this or have somehow found this information in the past. Not just BASE advance, but the complete progressive curve and the TA.



    If you do know this, please send it to me.



    Thank you again,

    Rick of RicardoMarine in Oregon




    Wednesday 18th
    Hi Rick,

    Sorry, to the best of my knowledge, that information is not available. If you follow the instructions I sent previously, this will take care of the problem
    ** As long as he has plenty of advance above 1500/2000 rpm the engine will run fine.
    Best Regards,

    Harry




    Bottom line:
    1..... My opinion is ....... Harry is not the person to suggest which springs to use for a Marine Ignition system. **He is not fully understanding the system and it's importance!
    2.... We still cannot find a Chrysler Marine Corp OEM ignition advance curve graph.
    Rick ... aka Ricardo..... AQ series Volvo Penta repair
    Portland, Oregon
    28' SDN F/B w/ twin Volvo Penta 5.7L DP drives

    "Intellectual growth should commence at birth and cease only at death." Albert Einstein

    Please... no PMs! Post your questions on the forum.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Where can I find distributor springs?!

    And this is why I come to the experts

    Thank you, sincerely, for all of the help. I'll keep you posted as I progress

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Where can I find distributor springs?!

    Which Chrysler engines are you running?


    .
    Rick ... aka Ricardo..... AQ series Volvo Penta repair
    Portland, Oregon
    28' SDN F/B w/ twin Volvo Penta 5.7L DP drives

    "Intellectual growth should commence at birth and cease only at death." Albert Einstein

    Please... no PMs! Post your questions on the forum.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Where can I find distributor springs?!

    Tifoez, What is the distributor part number? It looks like a 3675974. And what year? Electronic or points?

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Where can I find distributor springs?!

    Please read posts #4 and #16 again.

    I cannot stress enough the importance of the correct progressive advance curve. (post #4)
    Nor can I stress enough as to the risks involved regarding Ignition Induced Detonation, and the destruction that this may cause.

    Springs that may be too light (and it need not take much), will allow the progressive advance to come on far too early. This will lead to Detonation!
    Springs that may be too heavy will cause a delay to the progressive advance. Loss of power is the result.
    Rick ... aka Ricardo..... AQ series Volvo Penta repair
    Portland, Oregon
    28' SDN F/B w/ twin Volvo Penta 5.7L DP drives

    "Intellectual growth should commence at birth and cease only at death." Albert Einstein

    Please... no PMs! Post your questions on the forum.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Where can I find distributor springs?!

    Rick is definitely correct on the "stock" curve graph availability. But if you're going to chase this ghost you may just as well buy an aftermarket distributor to be done with it and get back on the water.
    There have been aftermarket curve graphs posted here previously I do believe. They may be worth a search to you.

    Another option maybe find someone with the same engine and work something out to have his/her distributor spun for the graph data.


    That said, on the stock distributor, it's likely you have/had two different springs in the distributor. Probably one a heavier wire gauge and longer than the other. I would think the heavier spring would be intact and you should be able to match that one somehow.
    The broken spring part you have should help ID it for at least wire diameter.

    Two different springs (diameter and length) as the longer heavier being the secondary, might look like this on a graph...
    Click image for larger version. 

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    So I'm thinking you have half the answer to the problem still intact.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Where can I find distributor springs?!

    You are correct, the heavier spring was intact, however with severe corrosion, so I would be worried about trying to match that spring due to the diameter being "off" of "true" dimensions and tensions?

    I am currently considering changing out the dist. due to the difficulties in finding replacement parts in an engine as old as these.

    I am nervous about updating systems, and I would have to find someone who specializes on older Chrysler marine engines, or someone who has also done the update to know EXACTLY which setup would be best for the longevity of the motor, prior to purchasing anything. Performance doesn't mean squat if I'll only get one season out of the motor post update.

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Where can I find distributor springs?!

    Just what year and size engine is this? Is it a twin? If a twin, what is the other distributor condition?

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Where can I find distributor springs?!

    ...........................
    Quote Originally Posted by daves69 View Post
    Rick is definitely correct on the "stock" curve graph availability.
    True.... no none here on this forum has been able to provide an OEM Chrysler Marine Engine ignition advance curve graph.



    But if you're going to chase this ghost you may just as well buy an aftermarket distributor to be done with it and get back on the water.
    OK.... but who is to say that a new ignition distributor advance curve will be correct for Marine use?
    Let's see the curve!!!!!



    There have been aftermarket curve graphs posted here previously I do believe.They may be worth a search to you.
    I have never seen one posted. However, I have seen BASE advance posted..... but this is NOT a curve that would include the Progressive and/or TA.




    Two different springs (diameter and length) as the longer heavier being the secondary, might look like this on a graph...………

    Click image for larger version. 

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    While the above graph does not show any advancing degrees nor any crankshaft angle, this curve is far too aggressive in the first ramp-up for Marine use.
    This curve graph line should be more linear.




    So I'm thinking you have half the answer to the problem still intact.
    Quote Originally Posted by daves69 View Post
    Just what year and size engine is this? Is it a twin? If a twin, what is the other distributor condition?
    I asked this question in my post #19. It would sure be helpful if he would answer it for us.
    Rick ... aka Ricardo..... AQ series Volvo Penta repair
    Portland, Oregon
    28' SDN F/B w/ twin Volvo Penta 5.7L DP drives

    "Intellectual growth should commence at birth and cease only at death." Albert Einstein

    Please... no PMs! Post your questions on the forum.

  26. #26
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    Default Re: Where can I find distributor springs?!

    ...………….
    http://www.marineengine.com/boat-for...rves-(Mallory)

    Any similarity there?

    The image I posted portrays a dual step mechanical advance. It is not posted as "the" curve with numbers. Yes the marine may (or may not) be more flattened out. When and if that ghost is found, maybe someone will post it.

  27. #27
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    Default Re: Where can I find distributor springs?!

    ...............
    Quote Originally Posted by daves69 View Post
    ....


    Any similarity there?
    Similarity...... yes!

    And by the way...... I have no argument with you, Dave. Your info is good.
    I'm just trying to help the OP so that he does not make a mistake with these flyweight return springs.




    Please understand that Ignition spark lead (aka ignition advance) is necessary in order for the fuel/air "burn" to begin during a given crankshaft angle so that it may produce LPCP (location of peak cylinder pressure) at/near 12* to 14* ATDC! Yes..... LPCP @ 12* to 14* After Top Dead Center.

    Peak Pressure occurs when the gasses have reach maximum expansion. This gives each cylinder the greatest leverage advantage over the crankshaft.

    As RPM increases, so does the need for ignition advance in order to maintain LPCP @
    12* to 14* ATDC!
    When LPCP occurs at/near the desired crankshaft angle, it gives us the most efficient torque range.
    However, please also understand what "Ignition Induced Detonation" is and how destructive it can be.


    The image I posted portrays a dual step mechanical advance. It is not posted as "the" curve with numbers. Yes the marine may (or may not) be more flattened out. When and if that ghost is found, maybe someone will post it.
    Last edited by RicardoMarine; 07-27-2018 at 10:31 AM.
    Rick ... aka Ricardo..... AQ series Volvo Penta repair
    Portland, Oregon
    28' SDN F/B w/ twin Volvo Penta 5.7L DP drives

    "Intellectual growth should commence at birth and cease only at death." Albert Einstein

    Please... no PMs! Post your questions on the forum.

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