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2008 Honda 225 gives Solid alarm and limp mode about 3300+ RPMs

Triton23

New member
Hi,
My outboard gives a solid alarm at about 3300 RPM and drops to idle. I shut it off and it starts right back up. I can run again at around that RPM for a couple of minutes, then happens again. I haven't tried to run faster to try to avoid extra damage when it drops RPMs. I have posted this prob. on another forum and got some good feedback but the problem continues. Here is what I have done so far:

-New heat sensors on exhaust manifold
-New t-stats
- New HP & LP fuel filter
-Water pump has about 5 hours on it now
- Inspected most of the coolant lines
- Checked fuel pump pressure

These things did not help the problem. So I bought the HDS kit. I found that the engine temp was fine while running fast and slow speeds. But one thing I noticed on the screen is that my High pressure oil sensor was OFF and my low pressure oil sensor was ON. Should they both be on or off? I will try to post a pic of the read out while the engine was running at idle.

Someone suggested checking my crank shaft end play. Not sure how to do that. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Than you for your time.
 
Someone suggested checking my crank shaft end play.
..... but if this were the problem you'd get the alarm every time you ran the engine - and on the other forum you said you'd done a 10 mile run with no alarm, so I'm not sure this is the cause.

The first thing you need to do, if you haven't done it yet, is to pull the error codes. One of the gurus on here is chawk_man who will hopefully be along to give advice but basically this is the method he has supplied to me in the past:

When you pull fault codes you need to first have the shunt (i.e. paper clip or piece of solid wire) installed, shorting the black wire to the white/green wire in the red connector under the engine cover.
You can see this shunt in place in this video:
Then turn on the key switch and check for blinks on the MIL light. If the MIL light stays on, there supposedly are no codes. However, it is confusing in the manual. When I pull codes on my BF 225, and there are no faults. The MIL light does not light up.

To reset and clear the codes, keep the shunt in place. Turn the key switch on, then work the kill switch in and out five times within 20 seconds. If the reset is successful, you should get one or two beeps on the alarm.

Once you've got the codes come back and share them
 
Ok, so i tried the paper clip short thing. I showed a triangle under the Batt symbol (which is always on when the motor is not running) and a triangle above the engine symbol but not blinking. I dont have lights like the video.

Also, I want to add that when the boat goes into the alarm, the oil dot disappears above the oil symbol.

Wednesday when this happened, i ran at speed for about 5 miles with no problem. Then trolled for about 7 hours no problem. Then on my way back in after running about 2-3 miles, it alarmed.

And when hooked up to HDS the alarm is not registering a fault code.

Thank you for your help with this.
 
Oil and temp do not register a fault code, they are simply registered as how many times thay have occurred. When you get the alarm, take note of what your oil and temp lights are doing, oil light (green) should stay on and temp (red) off. What year is your motor? Early motors had issues with the oil pickup cracking resulting in irratic oil pressure failure
 
Apologies,I see it's an 08, if you have an oil pressure issue you need to check crankshaft end play, you may have a thrust bearing issue although it was rare on the earlier models
 
Ahh, that's interesting as it almost sounds like the pickup is intermittently blocked (or just a low oil level, which I'm sure isn't the case) - but your explanation might explain it.
 
Triton23 - please explain in detail what lights you have on your key switch. Or better yet, post a picture. That would help with diagnostics. I've not seen a key switch light system like you described.

I assume that you have checked your oil level and smelled the oil for a gasoline smell. Is that correct? Is the oil level slightly below the "full line?"

A continuous alarm indicates either overheat or low oil pressure, or both. An overheat can cause low oil pressure. As Iang6766 said, overheat or low oil pressure with not throw a fault code. Note that a long intermittent alarm indicates problems with the programmed fuel injection system or the alternator, which will throw a fault code.

When running, both HP and LP oil sensors should be on. When engine is not running, both should be off, assuming your HDS is properly detecting them off the ECU.

If you truly have either low oil pressure or and overheat, let the engine run. If it goes into "limp" mode, which is 1800 rpm, and it's overheating, the engine will shut down after 20 seconds if still overheated. If low oil pressure, it will continue to run at 1800 rpm's. Neither occurrence should do any damage to the engine.

There are videos on the Internet on how to properly test for end play in the thrust bearing - basically you gently pry up the flywheel and measure the play. I think that the maximum play allowed on this engine is 0.018 inches. Not totally sure of that. Having said that, the thrust bearing issue seems to have mostly plagued the '09 - '10 model years. But there are exceptions.

Finally, if you can get your hands on the electrical diagram, trace the wires from the HP oil pressure switch to the connector on the ECU. I can't tell you which connector, because I'm traveling and do not have access to my manual. But pull that connector and find the proper pins and make sure they are not broken or corroded.

Who made the HDS you are using? Where are you located?
 
CHawk, thanks for the information. I have the Honda digital gauges so I don't have red and green lights. Tried several times to post a pic on here but cant seem to get it to work. Just got off phone with Honda Support. He says there is only 2 things that will do that type of alarm Heat and oil. He put me on hold then came back to tell me that the heat values that I had while running were fine (sensor 1 190, sensor 2 & 3 135). He stated that its my thrush washer going out.

Is that a big job? I'm a Fireman and not a trained Mechanic lol. But have some wrenching skills.

The HDS is by Healtech.

I'm on NorCal.
Thanks.
 
Yes, a failing thrush washer is a HUGE problem. See my comment above on how to check it. To repair it requires the complete disassembly of the engine. But let's not go there yet...

OK on the digital gauges. I assume that they are the two gauges where one shows speed (with indicators at the bottom labeled Batt, Trip, TTL, ECO, and Flow and the other shows RPM's with symbols at the bottom showing icons for Oil, Overheat, Alternator, and programmed fuel injection. Is that correct?

If so, that's not what I am talking about. On the panel where you turn your key on, there will be two or four lights. In some set ups, it may be two lights on the key switch panel and two other lights on a separate panel nearby. It's those lights where you will read the fault codes of the MIL (Malfunction Indicator Light) AKA the "check engine" light, assuming you do have all four of them, just a Metal-Chicken described. So come back at us and tell us what you have.

Before we conclude a thrust washer failure, let's eliminate all other possibilities as described in my previous post and this one.
 
I seem to have a place for the lights but no lights. It looks like who ever installed the motor plugged the holes with little black plugs. Still cant seem to post a pic of it.
 
Well, OK if you don't have the lights, we cannot pull fault codes the way I'm familiar with. Plus I'm not familiar enough with the Heath Kit HDS. So recommend you go back to my post #7 and go through those diagnostics. First thing of course is to check the oil level and smell for any smell of gasoline.
 
The oil I had in there before I started this did smell like gas. It only had about 10 hrs on it. Now this oil is starting to smell gassy too.
 
Triton 23, your digital gauges have oil and temp alerts at the bottom of the tacho, there is a little bar that flashes if there is a problem, as Chalk said, you need to see if the oil light is flashing when the alarm sounds.If you have fuel in your oil and the engine runs fine( it would smell very fumy if there were a flooding injector) then you may have a ruptured fuel pump diaphragm. Replace the fuel pump and change the oil, use 10W40 and see what happens. One other thing, if you have a failed thrust washer you will see tiny bits of metal in the oil you drain, inspect it carefully in the sun or a bright light.
 
Yes, my gauges have the things you mentioned. However, I only see triangles above those symbols. When I use the paper clip to short it, I only got a solid triangle above the motor symbol. When running and the alarm sounds, the dot that is always on above the oil symbol disappears and no other triangles appear.
I have the old oil that I just changed out. I will run a magnet through it and see what I grab. Stay tuned.

Also, if I am getting gas into my oil, are you thinking that this is whats causing the alarm and guardian mode?

Thanks.
 
Just checked my oil catch pan. It had alot of small metal chips. They would not stick to the magnet. Took pic but not sure if I need 10 posts before I can post pics like the other site.

Any thoughts?
 
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Just ran the motor again with the ear muffs and hooked up to the diognostic. Noticed a couple of things.

1) I have one more oil pressure alerts from going out on Wednesday
2)As mentioned previous, my oil pressure switch is off. But as I move the cursor over the Tittle it states " Signals "ON" (green light) when oil pressure is within limits. The oil pressure switch is held open by oil pressure and calibrated to close when the oil is below normal in higher RPM ranges. This will trigger the oil alert system if the engine speed is above about 3000 RPM. The opening of this switch also allows VTEC to engage".

So does that mean that the HP switch is bad?
 
Just checked crank shaft end play. I think I did it correctly. It was at least .50 if not more. So I guess the guy at Honda Corp. was right. Thrush washer is bad.

Anybody have an idea what I'm looking at cost wise? My wife just flipped. LOL
 
So you will more than likely need a short motor. I am guessing that running oil diluted with gasoline has caused the thrust washer to fail. If you're lucky you may be able to reuse your block and find a good crank, however the ones I have seen failed have damaged the thrust washer carrier in the block as well as the crank, so best to get a short motor if this is the case.The reason your magnet doesn't pick up the metal in the oil is because it is white metal off the thrust washer and is not magnetic. The oil pressure switch has nothing to do with VTEC, that is controlled by the ECM and is activated at 4200RPM. Are you certain about the end float, was it measured accurately, max tolerance is .45mm, so you are pretty close. I think you should get your oil analysed before you throw big money at this engine and check your fuel pump too. One more thing I would do, is see if there is a dealer who has the tool to measure oil pressure, that way you will know for sure what is going on inside your motor.
 
Agree with Ian on diagnosis what you should do at this point.

His term "short motor" is know as a "short block" in the US. It's the basic block with crank, rods, pistons and heads - that is everything between the oil pan gasket and the head gaskets.
 
Just tinkered today on the motor while I wait for the oil pressure test gauge adapter to arrive. I recall having oil that smelled gassy so I changed it, then ran it twice ( one test run and one half day of trolling for halibut). My oil smells gassy again. So I read through my SELOC manual and found out how to check the fuel injectors. So tested all of the injectors for resistance. 5 of them tested at 13-14 ( book states 11-13) ohms and one tested at 35. So I replaced it. My thought is that could the oil have been getting diluted with gas causing it to thin out and the sensor thinking there is a problem?

Just trying to rule out as many things possible before I take to shop on 7/12.

Thank you for any input.
 
Injector flooding would cause a misfire.Check your mechanical fuel pump diaphragm by seeing if it holds a vacuum with inlet blocked, that is the only thing that can contaminate your fuel so quickly
 
Just for the record, the ohms test only tells you if an injector is okay electrically, only a physical flow test will tell if It's flooding
 
iang6766, Just checked my low pressure fuel pump's vacuum. While running its about 16 in. hg. Takes about 2 minutes to drop to 0. Pressure wise its about 6-7 psi.

Not sure if this is normal,
Thanks

Also, changed the oil again today. lots of metal shavings. I guess at some point I need to accept the $6k bill I guess.:mad:
 
are you able to get an oil pressure gauge adapter to see what your oil pressure is doing.It does look a bid of a sad case I'm afraid
 
Yes, the adapter arrives tomorrow. Might try to get out to lake Saturday morning before it gets crazy. Will post #'s once done.

Thanks
 
Ok, I received the adapter and ran the boat in my driveway. At idle and warmed up (640 RPM) oil pressure is about 19 PSI. Brought RPM's up to about 1800 and it shoots up to a steady 75 PSI.
 
okay, that is a positive but it a still a worry that you are getting metal in your oil.I would be getting the oil analysed next to see what that metal is and if it is white metal you will have no choice other than to remove the power head and open it up to investigate further.
 
Update

So it turns out that it was the thrush washers. The mechanic acually said that they were completely gone. just metal pieces in my oil pan. I had him do service bulletin #56 while in there. Finished my 10 hour break in.

Thanks for all of your help. Now out to slay the Pacific Salmon.
 
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