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Spark and Fuel But No Start

B

Barnacle Bob

New member
I have a 1989 Evinrude 25 hp (TE25ELCEB). It has a new fuel pump, electric primer is working, rebuilt and cleaned the carb. Also has a new ignition module, stator, ignition coils, spark plug wires and plugs. It's getting a spark that jumps a 1/2 inch gap on both. Compression is 120 in each cylinder. Timing is good, linkage is set according to the manual. Despite all this, it won't crank over. When I pull the plugs after cranking, they're wet, so I think I've got fuel, and it's fresh fuel with a 50:1 gas to oil mixture. I'm completely baffled as to where to go next.
 
Its flooded does the fuel burn on the plugs with a lighter? Leave the plugs outand pull on the rope a few times to clear the cylinders then put the plugs in and give it a yank. If it stays flooded you have a carb issue. Disconnect the fuel ine at the engone and keep trying to start it. Try to start it without the primer some engines flood alot easier than others.
 
racerone said:
flywheel key checked ?----Orange / blue stripe going to the top coil ?
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Thanks for the reply, racerone. I had the flywheel off to check the air gap on the coil, and I noted the key is good. Yep, orange/blue striped wire goes to the top coil. Double-checked that one, too.
 
kimcrwbr1 said:
Its flooded does the fuel burn on the plugs with a lighter? Leave the plugs outand pull on the rope a few times to clear the cylinders then put the plugs in and give it a yank. If it stays flooded you have a carb issue. Disconnect the fuel ine at the engone and keep trying to start it. Try to start it without the primer some engines flood alot easier than others.
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Hey, hadn't thought of that trick with the lighter. I'll give that a shot. It does seem like it's flooding before the engine can turn over. I'll give your suggestions a try in the morning. Maybe I'll be fishing by the afternoon.

Thank you much, kimcrwbr1. I'll post again tomorrow whether this works or not.
 
Barnacle Bob said:
Hey, hadn't thought of that trick with the lighter. I'll give that a shot. It does seem like it's flooding before the engine can turn over. I'll give your suggestions a try in the morning. Maybe I'll be fishing by the afternoon.

Thank you much, kimcrwbr1. I'll post again tomorrow whether this works or not.
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Make sure your float needle isn't sticking open. Choke off, throttle fully open does it at least "pop"?

Bill
 
I went ahead and pulled the carb again so I could check the float and the float needle. The needle isn't sticking and the float is well within specs. My carb has a drain plug on the float bowl. The manual shows carbs with a drain plug and with a primer inlet at that spot. At any rate, I had removed the plug to clean the orifice behind it, but hadn't examined the orifice. Turns out, a previous owner must have. I checked it with a magnifier. The head of the brass fitting is boogered up pretty bad, certainly to the point that I would not be able to remove it with a screwdriver. The manual calls this a high-speed orifice, and Dangar Marine calls it the main orifice. Either way, isopropyl alcohol went through it when I cleaned the carb, but could this be the root of my flooding issues?
 
Most engine terminology would call a "high speed orifice" and "main orfice" a main jet. But then Johnson calls a shear pin a "drive pin". I doubt the main jet would affect your flooding on engine start-up. Is there any way you can rig-up a gravity fed fuel supply to the main carburetor inlet on the carb and see if fuel overflows from the float bowl? If it does your float needle and seat are damaged.

Bill
 
Ram Jet said:
Most engine terminology would call a "high speed orifice" and "main orfice" a main jet. But then Johnson calls a shear pin a "drive pin". I doubt the main jet would affect your flooding on engine start-up. Is there any way you can rig-up a gravity fed fuel supply to the main carburetor inlet on the carb and see if fuel overflows from the float bowl? If it does your float needle and seat are damaged.

Bill
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Thanks, Bill, for both your responses. After I thought it through, that orifice is a non-player in this carb since it's plugged. It's probably there when the port is used for a primer fitting. That said, I'm really starting to lean your way on this. I examined the tip of the needle valve, and it looks slightly out of conical to me, though it's difficult to tell for sure even with magnification. It's a new one from the kit, but that doesn't guarantee something bad didn't happen to it after installation. I ordered a new one today. In the meantime, I think I'll try the gravity feed/float test. Either way, I'll put in a new float needle and seat. But it would be satisfying to say 'yes, that's what it was!' even before I put in the new part.
 
Barnacle Bob said:
Thanks, Bill, for both your responses. After I thought it through, that orifice is a non-player in this carb since it's plugged. It's probably there when the port is used for a primer fitting. That said, I'm really starting to lean your way on this. I examined the tip of the needle valve, and it looks slightly out of conical to me, though it's difficult to tell for sure even with magnification. It's a new one from the kit, but that doesn't guarantee something bad didn't happen to it after installation. I ordered a new one today. In the meantime, I think I'll try the gravity feed/float test. Either way, I'll put in a new float needle and seat. But it would be satisfying to say 'yes, that's what it was!' even before I put in the new part.
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I belong to a motorcycle forum and very often members will post issues with their carbs dripping fuel out of the overflow tube. It's usually the float needle and seat. The gasoline we are forced to use today contains ethanol which is very hard on most any fuel system. For political reasons we are stuck with this crap. Your needle may look good when magnified but what is the condition of the seat? In addition, poor fuel filtering can lead to junk getting jammed between the needle and seat. I just rebuilt a 1960 Johnson 3 H.P. carb and the kit came with a new needle and seat. I guess after 58 years it was the least I could do.

You'll get it. Hurry up summer's nearly here (I think).

Cheers,

Bill
 
Never put finger pressure on the float jus use its weight to check it. Pull the float and bend it never put finger pressure on it. They get damaged real easy alot of leverage at that part of the float.
 
Here's an update on my situation. I performed the gravity feed test on the carb as Bill suggested, but didn't experience an overflow from the bowl. I had a brand new needle valve, seat and float ordered and they came in yesterday, so I installed them anyway, adjusted the float to within spec and put it all back together. After several tries, I did get the motor to start and it idled nicely. But increasing the throttle made it cough and sputter periodically as if it were having a dead miss. When I throttled it back down again, it died and would not restart. Pulled the plugs -- wet again. Spark and compression are still good.
 
Sounds like your timing could be off. Possible sheared flywheel key or you the timer base for spark advance is sticking.
 
kevinj said:
Sounds like your timing could be off. Possible sheared flywheel key or you the timer base for spark advance is sticking.
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I know the flywheel key is good, and the timer base seems to move freely, but I can certainly put a timing light on it in the morning, see what it reads. Thanks, kevinj.
 
Barnacle Bob said:
I know the flywheel key is good, and the timer base seems to move freely, but I can certainly put a timing light on it in the morning, see what it reads. Thanks, kevinj.
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Well, I thought I could check the timing, but it doesn't run long enough after increasing throttle to see where the motor's timing is now. The manual for this particular motor only gives a 30 BTDC setting at WOT, which is determined simply by an adjustable stop. I don't see how setting that will affect the timing at or just above idle, given how the ignition plate moves in relation to the flywheel. It's hard to start, but when it runs at idle it's pretty smooth, though rpms are only about 580-600. Increasing throttle just a little makes it cough periodically like a dead miss and it exhausts a puff of heavy smoke each time until it dies out. Once it dies, there's no restarting it again until I dry the plugs and evaporate the fuel mixture from the cylinders. I've been battling this problem for months now and cannot figure out what's causing the issue. Never run into anything like this before. Doesn't seem to be a logical answer to the problem.
 
Barnacle Bob said:
Well, I thought I could check the timing, but it doesn't run long enough after increasing throttle to see where the motor's timing is now. The manual for this particular motor only gives a 30 BTDC setting at WOT, which is determined simply by an adjustable stop. I don't see how setting that will affect the timing at or just above idle, given how the ignition plate moves in relation to the flywheel. It's hard to start, but when it runs at idle it's pretty smooth, though rpms are only about 580-600. Increasing throttle just a little makes it cough periodically like a dead miss and it exhausts a puff of heavy smoke each time until it dies out. Once it dies, there's no restarting it again until I dry the plugs and evaporate the fuel mixture from the cylinders. I've been battling this problem for months now and cannot figure out what's causing the issue. Never run into anything like this before. Doesn't seem to be a logical answer to the problem.
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Someone here mentioned reeds. Could it be that your reed block/reeds are in rough shape?

Bill
 
Ram Jet said:
Someone here mentioned reeds. Could it be that your reed block/reeds are in rough shape?

Bill
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This model uses leaf valves instead of reeds, but same principle. Without pulling the manifold, I examined them as best I could when I had the carb off. The valves are super clean, look flat, no apparent bends or breaks. I didn't feel any air or fuel spitting back out the carb when I held my hand close to the air intake at idle.

Could there be some issue with the exhaust causing pressure differences? Maybe a blown exhaust gasket or something? It smokes pretty good just before it stalls and puffs a cloud during those burps or coughs. The smoke looks bluish and thin, more like oil/fuel than water, but might it be sucking water in somewhere in small quantities? Compression was good, so I didn't suspect a blown head gasket.
 
Barnacle Bob said:
This model uses leaf valves instead of reeds, but same principle. Without pulling the manifold, I examined them as best I could when I had the carb off. The valves are super clean, look flat, no apparent bends or breaks. I didn't feel any air or fuel spitting back out the carb when I held my hand close to the air intake at idle.

Could there be some issue with the exhaust causing pressure differences? Maybe a blown exhaust gasket or something? It smokes pretty good just before it stalls and puffs a cloud during those burps or coughs. The smoke looks bluish and thin, more like oil/fuel than water, but might it be sucking water in somewhere in small quantities? Compression was good, so I didn't suspect a blown head gasket.
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If I'm not mistaken blue smoke indicates oil burning and black fuel. Feel free to correct me anyone.

Bill
 
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