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bertram twin chryslers - stbd running rough.. elec ignition replacement?

FstaRockr Burns

Regular Contributor
Hi all - busy trying to get the stbd motor to run smooth. cleaned carb out last week.. no vac leaks far as I can tell.. when i connect a timing light each wire gives a perfect flash - no hiccups..

I noticed while replacing the solenoid a yellow resin running down from the electronic "gizmo" at the rear of the motor (There is a standard coil next to the dizzy) - so im not sure what this thing does?

Will an open gap spark test of about 7/16 show any issues? Is this thing possibly bypassed?

it looks like this:

electronic-ignition.jpg

Is there a way to test these things? Im gonna swap out the port engine one and see if it runs any better as the port motor is smooth smooth..

thanks
 
Lol, They can leak just sitting in a box on a shelf. These two were stored in the same box for several years. One is fine the other leaked. Not uncommon for them to leak but heat is always an enemy. As I recall it explained to me a bad mix of resin in the assembly process. Make sure all your grounds and connections are clean and tight. Don't be shy of scraping any rust or paint to assure good grounds.

ECUleak5.jpg
 
ok thanks - going to give the carb a 2nd clean out and try.. carter afbs.. the gas is 5 yrs old so running off an aux for now.. hard starting as well..

Do these distributors have advance springs under the plate? The top bit int he distributor is magnetic.. no physical connection so not sure if they used weights ?


Pulled the oil/ps cooler yesterday.. one hose sprang a leak and dumped oil. TOns of truck shops around here so hopefully they can make up some while I wait..

I also for the life of me can not find a timing mark on the front of the motor (its too tight to get in front of it).. I have to peek down at angles.. im contemplating using a piston stop and removing the plugs and making my own temp one where I can see it.. There is a mark on the damper - just no clue where the numbers on the block are..
 
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Hi all - busy trying to get the stbd engine to run smooth. cleaned carb out last week.. no vac leaks far as I can tell.. when i connect a timing light each wire gives a perfect flash - no hiccups..
As long as the spark is adequate to fire each cylinder, a timing light will typically flash even with a weak spark.

I noticed while replacing the solenoid a yellow resin running down from the electronic "gizmo" at the rear of the engine (There is a standard coil next to the dizzy) - so im not sure what this thing does?
The item at the very left of your photo is the alternator voltage regulator.
The white ceramic unit to the right of the voltage regulator is an ignition system resistor..... aka ballast resistor.
You should see one circuit that would offer resisted voltage (normal operation) .... and one circuit that would offer full voltage for during start-up.


Will an open gap spark test of about 7/16 show any issues? Is this thing possibly bypassed?
Is what by-passed?

it looks like this:

View attachment 16763

ok thanks - going to give the carb a 2nd clean out and try.. carter afbs.. the gas is 5 yrs old so running off an aux for now.. hard starting as well..
The 5 year old gasoline needs to be removed.
Why not do it now and add 5 or so gallons of high octane Non-Ethanol gasoline?
This way you can forgo the aux tank and have one item out-of-the-way. Much safer as well!


Do these distributors have advance springs under the plate? The top bit int he distributor is magnetic.. no physical connection so not sure if they used weights ?
You do not mention the year of these engines!
If in the 70's or 80s, Chrysler typically used VR (variable reluctor). Chrysler pioneered VR in the early 70s. VR is a tried and proven system.
If 70s/80s, and if VR, these would use a mechanically advancing system.
The flyweight system would be beneath the plate that supports the Reluctor and Sensor.

If there are NO flyweights, then you would have an EST system. EST is often equipped with photo-eye triggering.




I also for the life of me can not find a timing mark on the front of the motor (its too tight to get in front of it).. I have to peek down at angles.. im contemplating using a piston stop and removing the plugs and making my own temp one where I can see it.. There is a mark on the damper - just no clue where the numbers on the block are..
Some of the I/B engines used timing marks that were at the perimeter of the flywheel.
If this is the case, look near the 12:00 O'clock position on the flywheel cover (bell housing in the auto world) for an opening or port.
If so, the #1 cylinder TDC timing marks would be visible through this opening.



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Thanks ricardo - Ill have a look. The boat is a 68 - the distributor on the inside looks like this:

DSC_1369.jpg

We put in alot of fresh gas with fuel stabilizer and octane booster.. anyway I will see how today goes. I use a small outboard tank and all hoses are secured / no open bottles of gas anywhere :0 and I keep it well away from the running motor..
 
Yes...... that is a VR unit.
The flyweight advancing mechanism will be beneath the plate that the sensor mounts to.
Make sure that the flyweight and return spring system is functioning correctly, and that it will give you the correct progressive and total advance.
 
Also..... FYI..... no one to date has been able to post a Chrysler Marine OEM ignition advance curve graph.
I'm talking about an OEM curve graph that not only shows BASE/Initial advance...... but a graph that shows the actual progressive curve and the TA/RPM.

So....... you're on your own regarding this until someone has found an actual Chrysler Marine OEM curve graph and will post it.
This will vary depending on which engine you have.



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In the photo of the electronic parts the item on the far left is actually the ECU. Having two engines makes possible to switch items (carbs, dists, ECUs etc) until a culprit is found. Could be mechanical maybe valves.
 
The ignition systems on your old Chrysler are the weakest part!! Your big concern is that you have thrust collars on those motors (under the distributor) and old Chrysler “marine” distributors that have a slightly longer shaft to make up the space for the collar. The collar is required for the counter rotation motor but they put them on both to keep parts interchangeable. They are no longer made, believe me I’ve looked... That box on the left is a mopar ignition box. I have a guy that can rebuild your distributors and he has a dual distributor tester (so he can match them perfectly). Pertronix makes an awesome distributor for Chrysler’s, but it’s not marine rated and you have to figure out a solution for the thrust collar on the counter rotation motor... in either case You throw away the ignition box and the ballast resistor, install a epoxy filled square box coil at low resistance and run 12 volts directly. Set initial timing at 14 and use the springs that are all in at the lowest RPM possible Low end torque will totally change. You shouldn’t be able to get much over 4000RPM in that battle wagon. I would switch the distributors and the carbs between motors (marking dist for timing and cylinder location, also plugs and wires. If that’s all good and swapping carbs and dist doesn’t fix the issue I’d pull the intake and take a look at that flat tappet cam... are you running 20/50 VR1 and adding zinc?? If not I have bad news...
 
Oh and I almost forgot, you time these from the back by the transmission there’s a rubber flap you remove to see the flywheel. Someone turns the motor by hand while you watch for the mark, do yourself a favor and make a yellow mark when you find it.
 
Also..... FYI..... no one to date has been able to post a Chrysler Marine OEM ignition advance curve graph.
I'm talking about an OEM curve graph that not only shows BASE/Initial advance...... but a graph that shows the actual progressive curve and the TA/RPM.

So....... you're on your own regarding this until someone has found an actual Chrysler Marine OEM curve graph and will post it.
This will vary depending on which engine you have.



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Ricardo would this do us any good since it would have been made for leaded fuel in 1968? I suppose it would set a benchmark of sorts. I know we have them for GM jobseekers that vintage and the timing curve we use today is totally different on the same motor.
 
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The ignition systems on your old Chrysler are the weakest part!! Your big concern is that you have thrust collars on those engines (under the distributor) and old Chrysler “marine” distributors that have a slightly longer shaft to make up the space for the collar. The collar is required for the counter rotation engine but they put them on both to keep parts interchangeable. They are no longer made, believe me I’ve looked... That box on the left is a mopar ignition box. I have a guy that can rebuild your distributors and he has a dual distributor tester (so he can match them perfectly).
That would be great. VR is excellent, and if the shaft bushings and flyweight system can be brought back to within specs...... it's a win win.

Pertronix makes an awesome distributor for Chrysler’s, but it’s not marine rated and you have to figure out a solution for the thrust collar on the counter rotation engine.. in either case You throw away the ignition box and the ballast resistor, install a epoxy filled square box coil at low resistance and run 12 volts directly.
Pertronix uses Hall Effect.
It's not "Hall Effect" that is the issue..... it's the way in which Pertronix incorporates the Hall Effect.
I would not wish the Pertronix Hall Effect system on anyone!



Set initial timing at 14 and use the springs that are all in at the lowest RPM possible
No offense..... but this is poor advice for a gasoline Marine Cruiser Engine.
An early Progressive advance and/or an early TA can cause Marine Load Detonation, of which is extremely damaging.



Low end torque will totally change.
Only if the ignition advance creates a correct LPCP. Otherwise, the risks may be greater than one would be willing to take!

Oh and I almost forgot, you time these from the back by the transmission there’s a rubber flap you remove to see the flywheel. Someone turns the engine by hand while you watch for the mark, do yourself a favor and make a yellow mark when you find it.
I'm thinking that you are suggesting that he make a yellow mark at the front end of the engine while at TDC via the flywheel...... correct?

Ricardo would this do us any good since it would have been made for leaded fuel in 1968?
The lead additive of that erra was intended to lubricate the older non-hardened valve seats.

I suppose it would set a benchmark of sorts. I know we have them for GM jobseekers that vintage and the timing curve we use today is totally different on the same engine.
High Performance Auto ignition advance is quite different from that of Marine. If an Automotive advance curve was used for a Marine Cruiser Engine, it would likely undergo detonation.

With the SBC Marine engines, I use the OEM ignition advance curve..... and I will only vary the curve/TA if the engine is quench effect capable (i.e., custom built w/ a Q/E combustion chamber).
 
My appologies........ am in error in post #5, second paragraph. I now stand corrected!
(I should have remembered this from having owned a few 70s/80s Chrysler products)


Also..... and at the risk of redundancy here:
In my opinion, it would be risky to suggest a BASE advance number when we do not know what the ignition system is offering as a Progressive advance curve.
In other words..... if we were to suggest a BASE (or Initial) advance of 14 degrees, we would also want to check and see what the progressive advance is doing.
If a 14* BASE is added to a 20* Progressive, that would equal 34* total..... but at what RPM?

And again....... to date, no one on the MarineEngine dot com forum has been able to produce an OEM Chrysler Marine Corp ignition advance curve for any Chrysler Marine Engine.
This leads me to a question: How in the hell do we properly set up a Chrysler Marine Engine for cruiser use?


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The ignition systems on your old Chrysler are the weakest part!! Your big concern is that you have thrust collars on those engines (under the distributor) and old Chrysler “marine” distributors that have a slightly longer shaft to make up the space for the collar. The collar is required for the counter rotation engine but they put them on both to keep parts interchangeable. They are no longer made, believe me I’ve looked... That box on the left is a mopar ignition box. I have a guy that can rebuild your distributors and he has a dual distributor tester (so he can match them perfectly).
That would be great. VR is excellent, and if the shaft bushings and flyweight system can be brought back to within specs...... it's a win win.
I DID THIS BUT THEN ONE OF MY MOPAR BOXERS CRAPPED OUT ON THE WATER... THEN ONE OF MY REBUILT DIST BROKE INSIDE... SO I RIPPED THE WHOLE THING OUT.

Pertronix makes an awesome distributor for Chrysler’s, but it’s not marine rated and you have to figure out a solution for the thrust collar on the counter rotation engine.. in either case You throw away the ignition box and the ballast resistor, install a epoxy filled square box coil at low resistance and run 12 volts directly.
Pertronix uses Hall Effect.
It's not "Hall Effect" that is the issue..... it's the way in which Pertronix incorporates the Hall Effect.
I would not wish the Pertronix Hall Effect system on anyone! D
IM SHOCKED BY THIS STATEMENT I HAVE NEVER LOVED AN IGNITION SYSTEM SO MUCH AS I DO THE IGNITOR 3 BY PERT. CAN YOU PLEASE ELLABORATE ABOUT THE IGNITOR THREE??? UNLESS YOUR REFERING TO THE HALL EFFECT IGNITOR 1 WHICH I AGREE SUCKS, BUT ITS A TOTALLY DIFFRENT ALLTOGETHER UNIT.


Set initial timing at 14 and use the springs that are all in at the lowest RPM possible
No offense..... but this is poor advice for a gasoline Marine Cruiser Engine.
An early Progressive advance and/or an early TA can cause Marine Load Detonation, of which is extremely damaging.

IM A TIMING FANATIC, ITS THE LAST THING MOST PEOPLE GO AFTER. BECAUSE OF THIS I SHOULD HAVE BEEN MORE CLEAR. YOU NEED TO KNOW TOTAL TIMING NORMALLY 32*- 34* AND I WAS REFFERING TO THE SPRINGS THAT COME WITH THE PERT DIST IN A MOTOR THAT CANT GET OVER 3500-3800 IN A 15000 POUND BOAT going all in UNDER 3000. i ACTUALLY USE A DIGITAL LIGHT AND THEN WORK BACKWARDS FROM 34*.

None


Low end torque will totally change.
Only if the ignition advance creates a correct LPCP. Otherwise, the risks may be greater than one would be willing to take!

AGREED!!!






quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by 603dad

Oh and I almost forgot, you time these from the back by the transmission there’s a rubber flap you remove to see the flywheel. Someone turns the engine by hand while you watch for the mark, do yourself a favor and make a yellow mark when you find it.
I'm thinking that you are suggesting that he make a yellow mark at the front end of the engine while at TDC via the flywheel...... correct?

NO IM SAYING MAKE A BRIGHT YELLOW MARK ON YOUR FLYWHEEL, CAUSE ITS PROBABLY ALL RUSTED TO CRAP LIKE MINE ARE AFTER 40 YEARS AT SEA. HELPS WITH YOUR INITIAL TIMING SET. THERS NOTHING TO SET THE BALANCER TO NO TABS.





quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by 603dad

Ricardo would this do us any good since it would have been made for leaded fuel in 1968?
The lead additive of that erra was intended to lubricate the older non-hardened valve seats.

I suppose it would set a benchmark of sorts. I know we have them for GM jobseekers that vintage and the timing curve we use today is totally different on the same engine.
High Performance Auto ignition advance is quite different from that of Marine. If an Automotive advance curve was used for a Marine Cruiser Engine, it would likely undergo detonation.

With the SBC Marine engines, I use the OEM ignition advance curve..... and I will only vary the curve/TA if the engine is quench effect capable (i.e., custom built w/ a Q/E combustion chamber).

I DIDNT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT HIGH PERFORMANCE OR AUTO CURVES I DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW YOU CAN SAY THAT TODAY FUEL DOES NOT AFFECT THE TIMING AND DETONATION CHARACTERISTICS?! USING A 40 YEAR OLD ADVANCE CURVE I WOULD SET THE TIMING FOR 8* INITIAL TIMING.. WOULD YOU DO THAT TODAY ON A BIG BLOCK MOPAR?


ALL THIS HAVING BEEN SAID IM GOING TO START A NEW THREAD ON MY MOTOR BUILD THIS WINTER. I HAVE ALOT OF DECISIONS TO MAKE ON THE MOTORS AND I NEED ALOT OF ADVICE!!!! i AGREE I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THE TIMING CURVE SHOULD BE!! BUT IM GOING TO FIGURE IT OUT:) IS THE MOPAR DAVE GUY STILL AROUND?? hE HELPED ME OUT GREATLY.



 
............................And again....... to date, no one on the MarineEngine dot com forum has been able to produce an OEM Chrysler Marine Corp ignition advance curve for any Chrysler Marine Engine.
This leads me to a question: How in the hell do we properly set up a Chrysler Marine Engine for cruiser use?


.


Other than automotive, the only thing I've found on stock Chrysler are "motor home" engine advance curves.

Ricardo, not that I'm advocating this, but I'm curious how close do the GM & Ford marine come to their respective "motor home" engines?
 
Ricardo Can you expound further on your disdain for the Pertronix 3?!?! I'm shocked you say this, I have hundreds of hours on mine and they are awesome!!

I am building two 440's this winter for my SeaRay, I have a lot of questions around ignition and I will need a lot of help!! I plan to start a new thread. I agree with you about the Advance curve. I have no idea where to begin so I plan to learn about how we develop a advance curve on any engine based on its use and start there. Its going to be the best project I've ever done.
 
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Other than automotive, the only thing I've found on stock Chrysler are "motor home" engine advance curves.

Ricardo, not that I'm advocating this, but I'm curious how close do the GM & Ford marine come to their respective "motor home" engines?
Marine Cruiser Engine loads are very constant and are typically heavy loads.
If not careful, Detonation is more likely to occur within the Marine Engine.
Baring that all else is correct, ignition advance has the last word re; LPCP.

Basically, the Marine Engine ignition advance curve will be considerably different from that of a motor home, truck or car engine.

Ricardo Can you expound further on your disdain for the Pertronix 3?!?! I'm shocked you say this, I have hundreds of hours on mine and they are awesome!!
Hall Effect is excellent as it is used in today's automobile ignition systems and in the ABS braking systems.
However, Pertronix's style Hall Effect incorporates a small diameter magnet embedded plastic wheel.
A magnetic flux is sensed as each passes the sensor unit..... hence one spark event!

Due to the small diameter and the embedded magnet process, the angle of separation is not equal between all cylinders.
Pertronix themselves have reported errors of up to 1 to 1.5 degrees re; the angle of separation.
NOTE: 1 degree error at the triggering device (the Hall Effect unit) equals 2 degrees error at the crankshaft.
Basically, it is a cheesy means of using Hall Effect triggering! They could have done a much better job!!!!!

Also, if installing a Pertronix Conversion KIT in your existing ignition distributor....... not only do they offer the inherent inaccuracy, they do ZERO to correct any shaft wobble or any wear in the advancing mechanism.
Bad bushings lead to shaft wobble.... shaft wobble leads to an erratic dwell angle!!!!!
A malfunctioning advancing system may lead to engine damage!!!!!


Just for fun, compare a finely machined all steel VR reluctor triggering wheel to that of a plastic Pertronix Hall Effect triggering wheel.
You would be hard-pressed to find any errors in a VR or a photo-eye unit.


I am building two 440's this winter for my SeaRay, I have a lot of questions around ignition and I will need a lot of help!! I plan to start a new thread. I agree with you about the Advance curve. I have no idea where to begin so I plan to learn about how we develop a advance curve on any engine based on its use and start there.
And that right there is why the correct ignition advance curve and Total Advance limit are so important!

 
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Hi - havent got back to the boat yet (thanksgiving and all). Ric, I will try get something from these motors using my timing light and tach.. Ill try get a max advance on both and try record the advance at every 500 rpms - and post back. Will probably be next week (waiting on carb kits and testing my new ultrasonic cleaner on the carters).. Fyi a 15L takes a single carter perfectly with room to spare for the booster rings / etc.. I was always worried about Qjets/etc fitting - glad I didnt get the 9L!
 
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