Blown Block?? - BF150 less 200 hours

Greetings,

I've posted several times in the past with the minor issues and my BF 150 put into service in 2011. HONDADUDE and CHAWK have been a great assistance. Back on May 29th, I got an overheat alarm - via Garmin showing 175. I have had two prior alarms for this that with the assistance of this forum worked through. One was t-stats and i replaced those and the other was the poppet valve - or relief valve. I religiously change the filters and impellers yearly - the entire impeller assembly.

I solicited assistance from this forum and we worked through several possible solutions/problems. I was stumped and took it to the dealer in the area. They had the boat for a week or so and were getting overheat alarms and also 02 sensor alarms. The tech was unable to determine exactly what was going on so they worked with Honda Tech Support and through a series of elimination determined to be the 02 sensor. They did the oil, plugs and lower unit to include impeller etc. and the 02 sensor as well to the tune of 1200.00. They said they had no issues on a water test.

I ran the boat for less than an hour after getting the boat back and i got the same alarm. I called them and they were going to try to send the tech out to the house and evaluate - but didnt know when they would get to that. I advised let me see if it duplicates itself. I took the boat out and went fishing for about an hour - no alarm no issue. I called the dealer and said it seemed ok - but i'd let them know if more issues arise. about 5 days later, I went to use the boat and it was hard to start, would not run smooth and would not operate as normal and it alarmed - check engine level 2

I got the boat home and called the dealer - they agreed to send a tech over. About a week later, the dealer tech arrived. He put the scanner on the motor and said it is faulting AH sensor and an altitude sensor. He said it was the same sensor they replaced a few weeks ago. He thought it was possible that it's a bad sensor - but he wasnt sure. He advised the only other solution is a bad block.

The took the boat back to the dealer and now just called and said they looked at the oil and it's chocolate milk. A bad block and i will need 8000.00 to fix the issue. I asked how that could've happened since they had the boat less than 4 hours ago, changed the oil, spark plugs and other things and their was no issues with the block. The dealer said it could happen anytime and because it had a new impeller that it could have been pumping more water pressure into the block and caused the weak place to finally completely fail. I've changed the impeller every year - i dont know if that couldve happened or not.

I asked if the dealer could've installed something incorrectly or not properly and they stated absolutely not. I said that the first time i took the boat out after getting it back from the dealer, it faulted and they were made aware of the issue - the 2nd time i took it out - there was no faults - but the next time is when it started acting poorly and starved.

The dealer claims it has to be a bad block and nothing they did couldve caused it.

If i give them 8000.00 and fix it, they say i'll get a 90 day part warranty from honda but that since the block failed, it will fail again at some time down the road. They stated that Honda blocks are known in the industry for failure. (they are a honda service center)

I'm stuck in a rock and hard place - 8000.00 is alot of money for a rebuild with no warranty. But having a hull with no motor is not worth dang thing.

the boat has a total of less than 200 hrs of operation with maintenance records.

You experts - any suggestions???? thoughtS????? c omments???? I bought the motor new in May 2011 and it was on the Hurricane Deck boat that i bought at the same time. So warranty is not there.

I'm very disappointed that this has happened and trying to decide which course of action to take.

I am not sure if they couldnt have done something incorrectly that caused catastrophic failure - i would have believed if there was water intrusion that they wouldve seen it when they removed the old 02 sensor and replaced the plugs.

Assistance is genuinely appreciated.


JE

I'm not sure what you should do but I can tell you this:

They couldn't possibly know if it's a bad block, a cracked cylinder head or a head gasket allowing the water intrusion without performing some sort of FAILURE ANALYSIS. Which, in a case such as this, would likely involve taking the head off and closely examining each component. If there are no visual indications to explain the failure, then the block and head would need to be strategically plugged and pressure tested to find the leak.

I doubt they have done anything of the sort so, my question to them would be, how, EXACTLY, do you know it's a bad block? These kinds of queries MUST be made to avoid paying $8k for what, for all you know, is a bad head gasket.

I STRONGLY suggest that you make every attempt to find a reputable shop for a second opinion. You need to get EVERY SHRED of information that you can find before deciding what to do next.

While I know Honda, like any engine manufacturer, has experienced problems with some specific lines of their engines in the past, they are NOT "known in the industry for having block failure" as you were told. I would immediately suspect any such blanket statement made by anyone about any product line. PROVE IT! Usually it's just smoke and they can't. It DOES tell you something about the veracity of the people you're dealing with.

I'm sorry you're having this trouble and I hope you can find an equitable solution.

Ditto on all of Jimmy's statement. As I said in a PM to you, any number of things can cause water in the oil. Some are pretty minor. As long as I have been monitoring this forum, I do not recall anyone discussing a busted block or even a cracked head on a 150.

To reinforce my position and possibly join your Honda shop in guessing as to the cause:

The link below is a parts page depicting the oil pan and related parts. If you look carefully you will see that the exhaust flange is in very close proximity to the pan and it's flange gasket.

http://www.boats.net/parts/search/Honda/Outboard Engine/2004/BF50A4 LRTA/OIL PAN/parts.html

Now lets look at the page with the oil pump, exhaust pipe and water tube depicted.

Something that would need to be very closely scrutinized and consider is the grommet that seals the water tube as it fits to the block. Item 12.

Notice how close that piece of rubber is to the heat of the exhaust.
Now, unlike your shop, I'm not asserting in any way that these parts (pan gasket and water grommet) have failed and are the cause of your problem. I'm just saying consider the possibility. But mostly, the point is that there is really no room for guessing when it comes to spending $900 (boats.net RETAIL PRICE) for a new block. And then, what? A few hundred more for materials and related parts for proper installation.

Which then brings me to.....if it IS a cylinder block.....and THAT costs $900 with another few hundred for "necessities"......

.........Where did the $8,000 estimate come from?

http://www.boats.net/parts/search/Honda/Outboard Engine/2004/BF50A4 LRTA/OIL PUMP/parts.html

PLEASE try to find better help and then proceed carefully.

Thank you for replying and I truly appreciate everyone's assistance. In the beginning,going back 3 years or so - I'd have to look at all of these forum posts the boat would sometimes overheat (computer history shows a total of 7). I would follow advice change t-stats and impeller or check relief valve. the problem was intermittent at best. Back in may - it over heated and we started to believe it could be a heat sensor problem - after the dealer consulted with Honda hq. they deterimined through process of elimination was an o2 sensor fault - the boat over heated during their test run. they took back to shop and did more work and they said that they ran it for an hour in the water with no issues......I got boat back - first time out - over heat alarm - brought home - it never went into limp mode - any alarm - immediately shut down boat always.......never has. been in limp mode for me......next time try boat - no issues at all.....then hard to start and had them come out - that is when found water in oil.....

it's unknown what failed - they are going to have to do a tear down to determine what happened and also to go back and find why overheat alarm - somewhat like an autopsy I hope they do a good job. the boat lives in salt water.....salt water intrusion into the motor I would believe for the remainder of the life of the motor will always show up as corroded parts - ....I believe that's why they want to replace everything...

here is a break down of parts - yes I know full retail - I'll talk discounts after we found out whats' wrong....



Cylinder Machined Head
BF150 Block Assy *NH8*
Cyl Head gasket
BF 150 Honda Balancer
Oil pump, BF150
INTAKE GASKET
GASKET EX MANIFOLD
MISC PARTS TO BE LISTED LATEREngine Crankcase Oil, Qt


$1,385.00$3,258.24$127.44$479.04$339.11$16.60$30.42$545.12$7.95

$1,385.00$3,258.24$127.44$479.04$339.11$16.60$30.42$545.12$47.

the service writer notes:






Perform remote service at customers house to determine if boat engine is overheating.Bring computer and some diag equipment for this engine. We serviced the engine w/waterpump about a month ago. Customer has experianced an alarm off and on since then.Service pick up and delivary, Wednesday 6/21, 12pm, Our Trailer.



more notes
6/21 WC Responded to customers house and connected engine to computer. Af Sensor showing, cleared codeand ran engine, code intermittently comes and goes. Launched boat and recovered onto trailer and took to BE.6/22 CW Connected engine to computer and no active codes. Performed computer down load, Hours 180.00Started engine and engine running rough. NOTE: Engine was hard to start and did not want to stay running.Removed oil dipstick and found oil very milky. Drained oil and found oil full of water. NOTE: Engine cylinderhead will have to be removed to confirm location of failure, but does not change the repair that will be neede

​NOTES from original service call:

3/30 ZW Removed bolts and zinc anode, disconnected shift linkage. Removed lower unit from engine and







placed in holder on bench. Disassembled water pump. Inspected cup, plate, and impeller for wear. Inspectedupper housing for warpage and lower housing for corrosion. Cleaned mounting surfaces, removed debris.Rebuilt water pump with new parts (impeller, gaskets, seals). Remounted lower unit onto engine with lubricant onshaft, bolts and splines, reconnected shift linkage, reinstalled anode. Ran engine, checked shift in forward andreverse, checked water flow and temperature, good.









3/30 ZW Ran engine and checked compression: 190, 190, 190, 190. Engine hours 172.5. Changed engine oiland filter. Changed fuel filter. Flushed fuel system through VST. Changed fuel/water separator and checked fuelsample in filter. Vacuum checked fuel system on boat, 1.5 in-hg. at idle. Checked TPS and idle speed rpms.Changed fouled spark plugs. Drained gear lube, vacuum and pressure-checked gearcase and seals. Refilledgear lube, replaced drain screws gaskets and tightened drain screws to spec. Checked engine mounting boltsand battery connections. Checked engine ground connections. Checked steering. Checked speedo and pitottube. NOTE: Speedo tube is packed hard with sand and debris, unable to clear. Needs a transom mounted unitand a new hose ran to get speedo working.
After servicing the water pump, ran engine in tank for 5 minutes, checked t-stats, engine temperature andcooling, 139deg. Checked shift in forward and reverse. Coated engine with T-9. Checked tilt/trim assemblies,checked for fluid leakage and pitting of rams. Lubricated trim sending unit. Removed prop, checkedstraightness of shaft, checked for fishing line (which can pierce prop seal), reinstalled prop with spline grease.Checked zincs. Greased zircs. Connected engine to computer, saved download, checked codes, Af sensor.Cleared codes and could not get to recreate, ready for water test.


Water Test No $100.00


3/31, JD, launched boat at ramp. Started engine and after a short time the engine sounded an .02 sensor alarm.Turned off engine and restarted and alarm went away. Idled out to main channel. Accelerated to WOT. WOTrecorded at 6000 RPMS. It was noted between 4000-5000 RPMS, engine was sputterish and hesitant. Checkedsystems and found MPH gauge INOP. Returned to BE, washed trailer, boat and flushed engine.


4/5 SM, launched boat at ramp. Engine started and idled good. Idled out to main channel. Accellerated toWOT. WOT recorded at 6000 RPM Ran 30 minutes no issues

So this is where we are pretty much - waiting to see why failed and why overheating

than ks for all of your help

This is why some folks like older / simple engines.------------These smooth / computer controlled / silent engines do make boating more expensive in the long run.

UPDATE from the dealer

Tore down the motor - stated to me that the head gasket looks great, the block looks new and the head is perfect - no signs of warping or damage at all......mechanic then advised that it has to be some internal failure that they can't see that would cause the water intrusion into the oil...........they stated they have a call into honda tech to see if honda will step up and help out........i'm fingers crossed that they will help

It seems that repair shops quite often make up stuff from nowhere instead of saying "We don't know" when they don't know what is wrong. They have to tell you something for your money right? I'd be on death row for killing a hired person behind this kind of stuff.....if I didn't do my own work. I hope that Honda steps up and figures this out and makes you whole again. I guess all this stuff I typed is the long version of "subscribed".

It's probably premature to mention but, reading back through your post, I would venture to say that you may have already accrued sufficient time and documents on this that you probably have some fairly solid legal standing should Honda decline to work something out with you.

In California the small claims court system allows for a maximum award to a plaintiff of up to $10,000.00 should they prevail.

Each State has it's own limits and procedures but the common denominator to most, if not all, is NO LAWYERS ALLOWED. Each side brings their proof....receipts, work orders, written statements, etc...and tells their story to the arbitrator, usually a judge, and they get an immediate decision. Appeals are allowed.

I have used this system a few times to settle disputes with players much bigger and richer than me and I can say that it has worked very satisfactorily in every instance I've felt forced to use it. Not easy.....a P.I.T.A. really, but not all that hard if you seek recourse.

And, in about 50% of my cases, my opponent would call and offer to settle as soon as they received the petition of service. Turns out BIG companies don't really like being in court without all the "hired guns" they typically have on retainer.

Reading back through your story, it is compelling to me and I'm fairly certain it is to quite a few others as well.

Good luck.

Totally agree with Jimmy on this one.

Guys...thanks for the encouragement - I am a Honda person - my mower, generator, car, little boat and big boat, i've recommended honda outboards to my family members and neighbors and they have all bought them. This is my fourth honda that i have personally owned - never had issues till this one......So yes, I am hoping that the Honda Corp will consider that i'm pretty loyal - i financed thru them, i did all that i could and something still went wrong........
If not - yes.....i believe the court will have to get involved. i hope to avoid that with a good-will gesture from Honda

I still haven't heard from the District Service Manager. I did go and look at the motor. There was water intrusion into cylinder 2-3-4 and #1 looks brand new. I've attached 2 pics, the gasket as you can see did not fail........i have no idea how water can get into cylinder 2,3 and 4 and leave #1 looking new. The boat didn't sit in the water and the motor wasn't trimmed up. After they picked the boat up, it sat at the shop for about 2 weeks before they got into the motor to tear it down - so i don't know if it's possible that this much corrosion occurred in that period or not. Any opinions??

That's seriously UGLY! The only thing I can think of is a cracked or open water passage in the block, likely due to a manufacturing fault. If it was in the head, it would be obvious. See Jimmy's post #9.

What's the shop think caused it?

Chawk Shop doesn't know what caused it - they said the block looks great - no issues - no issues with gasket or head - they think it could be an internal failure within the block - but nothing to see externally..........Honda District Service Director is suppose to contact this dealer.....I'm being told...........the amount of damage/rust within the cylinders I presume is from sitting at the dealership prior to a tear down - I have no idea how it could've caused that much damage.....

Depressing!

I don't think anyone will ever know what caused this without using a "seal plate" bolted to the block deck to substitute the head and then flow, preferably dyed, "coolamt" through passages via water tube inlet.

This is routinely done at many engine repair facilities for particular auto and truck engines but I have no knowledge of anyone in the outboard world doing this. I imagine someone does but it might be hard to find them.

I hope Honda just steps up and takes care of a good customer.

jdepdawg said:

I still haven't heard from the District Service Manager. I did go and look at the motor. There was water intrusion into cylinder 2-3-4 and #1 looks brand new. I've attached 2 pics, the gasket as you can see did not fail........i have no idea how water can get into cylinder 2,3 and 4 and leave #1 looking new. The boat didn't sit in the water and the motor wasn't trimmed up. After they picked the boat up, it sat at the shop for about 2 weeks before they got into the motor to tear it down - so i don't know if it's possible that this much corrosion occurred in that period or not. Any opinions??View attachment 15946View attachment 15947

Click to expand...

Those pics make my stomach hurt!!!

UPDATED>>>>>>>>>>>

I spoke with Honda Customer Care, as of today, the regional service director has not been to the shop yet to look at the motor. Customer Service said that they will provide a 'short-block' and gaskets to me and that i will need to take care of the rest, to include the labor costs. The CS manager advised i will be responsible for the cylinder heads, valves and labor................anyone know about how much this is going to cost????........i have no clue - but guess around 5-6 k.................so i trying to determine course of action - repair..........or salvage .......and suck it up and repower.......but i don't know the cost of the repair after i deduct a short block and gaskets.
I know it's out of warranty and i cant complain that Honda won't help more - they are doing more than they had too. thanks

I'm familiar with the cylinder head repair on my 200. 24 intake/exhaust valves and seals =$750. The labor was $300 for both heads. And the gasket and seal set for the engine is roughly about $500..It's a great deal if you can do the swap. That block is about $3000.

Agree, that is about the best you could have hoped for. Include a complete re-furbishing of the heads - valves, valve guides, mic the cam bearings and replace if necessary, new cam belt, new tensioner, etc. With that, you will have a new engine for all practical purposes, at a very reasonable price.

Get a detailed written estimate for parts and labor from your shop, and possibly one or two more.

Based on what I've seen on this forum and others, the BF 150 is a superb engine, despite your experiences. So you should end up with a very good engine at a very reasonable price.