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2003 Honda 225 HP problem at 3000 rpm no alarms

S

Shot

Member
Changed primary filters and changed low and high pressure filters 50 hrs ago. Boat is a 282 mako with twin 225 Honda's. While running up to plane off the strb motor starts bogging down then back up repeatably at 3000 rpm. When motoring up to that point it is fine. Will idle all day. It feels like it is shutting the fuel off and on. The motor keeps stalling and trying to recover in quick on/off senerio. I checked all the filters again except the high speed filter and everything looks OK. Checked for fuel line issues and found none, all clear. Anything under 3000 RPM it's fine. Any ideas? Thanks
 
Going down to the boat shortly to check that out and see if I can clear the codes I don't have the newer switch only the 2 light. Can I still shunt the plug and go through the the procedure of ,turn key on, kill switch 5 times with in 20 seconds, 2 beeps indicates cleared, correct?
 
If you are not getting an alarm, you're not likely to get any fault codes off the EPROM. But it wouldn't hurt to check. If you need a write up of the procedure for pulling codes, send me an e-mail at [email protected].

There are many possibilities. First thing to try is when the engine is bogging down, have somebody rapidly squeeze the primer bulb. If that fixes the problem you may have a weak low pressure fuel pump.

Drain the VST completely. Also, the float in the VST may be sticking. To figure that out, you will need to remove the VST and check the float and needle valve. If you do that, you might as well replace that needle.

There is a screen on top of the fuel pressure regulator. Find that, remove it and clean it thoroughly. There is also a fuel screen inside the fuel pump housing. Remove that and clean thoroughly or replace if needed.
 
This is how far I have gotten:
1. Ran boat out and when I got to 3100 rpm she started surging back and forth. Immediately started pumping primer bulb with no change. At 3100 its a very lite surge, the higher the rpm the worst the surge. At around 3000 rpm everything seems to be great.
2. Removed the tank cap to check for over flow blockage, everything good, no change
3. Switched tanks, no change
4. Checked primer ball hardness between the 2 motors. felt like they were the same.
5. Checked level in low pressure filter compared to other motor, both the same
6. Checked fuel line from primary filter to water seperator on motor, clear.

Need a testing device to check high pressure pump. Does anyone have a part # or info on were I can get one?
High pressure should read 41-45 psi when the key is turned on, correct? Does the pressure build up on rpm demand or stay steady at that pressure through the RPM range?
I ordered all the o-rings and filters to do a complete check on everything on the high pressure side. Is there anything I am missing? I will be back down to florida in 2 weeks where I will pull the boat and bring it to the house and get to work on her. Thanks, Mike
 
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It is good to check the fuel pressure, etc.

It is possible that the neutral safety switch is faulty and telling the computer that you are still in neutral. It may not be conducting enough current to actually let you start the motor in gear, but could be a high resistance to ground that the computer can sense and not allow you to go much above 3000 rpm, so the motor does not overrev.....or so the computer may think.

There is a two pin connector on the neutral safety switch. With an ohm meter, it should be a dead short (reading zero or close to zero ohms) when the motor is in neutral. When the motor is put into gear, the reading should indicate an open circuit.

Just one thing to eliminate from the possible things that it could be.

Mike
 
Would the up and down from 3000 to 3400 back and forth be an indicator of the switch? If I ramp it to the point were it drops in rpm and leave the throttle there it will go back and forth until I move the throttle down to a smooth 3000rpm. At that point it stays constant. Thanks
 
If you eliminate a problem with the neutral safety switch, here is an off-the wall observation. I went back and read your posts. If I were experiencing this problem, I would suspect that I might be sucking air into the system at higher rpm's. Therefore, I would initially recheck the high pressure filter O ring and cover bolts, and the seal on the pressure relief bolt. Just a swag.
 
Already planned on doing that when I pull the boat. Doing all the filters and inspecting each point that I go through to make sure its correct. I will lube all o-rings with oil before install. Got another 2 weeks before I can start getting to it.
 
Roger that. Keep us posted. It's an interesting problem and there is likely an interesting solution.

Hopefully, I recall this correctly - A year or so ago on this forum a boater was having a fuel feed problem that every conventional approach couldn't fix. It was finally found that his fuel pick up tube was installed in the forward part of the fuel tank, and apparently was not long enough. When he accelerated, his engine would act up and start missing because it was sucking air when fuel was driven back to the rear of the tank. Weird problem.
 
Had no issues with the fuel pick up unless something let loose. But will keep that in mind when I start to work on her. Burned thru 5 tanks,185gal each, with no issues till this. I will let everyone know what I found along with pics. Thanks again.
 
Well today was the day to get into this thing. I got the boat to the house and went to drain the VST. Openned the drain screw and had about 2 oz of gas come out. Now to me that said all I did was empty the high pressure pump chamber. So I decided to get really deep and remove the whole assembly. A lot involved but finally pulled it. I dumped it upside down and wound up with about 12 plus oz's of water. I haven't torn the VST apart, that will be in the AM. So what do you think? Why wouldn't the VST fully drain through the drain port? Am I on the right track here? I have all the screens and o-rings to rebuild the VST except the float and needle valve. I will take pics of what I find in the AM.
 
It should drain more than you first try.

The owner's manual says to turn the engine to starboard....open the screw and extend the drain hose below the vapor separator and raise the engine.

Once the fuel starts flowing...lower the engine and keep the hose well below the vapor separator for siphoning to do its job.

If you drained it that way, then there may be something restricting the passage to the HP pump.
Mike
 
12 ounces of water in your VST? WOW!!! What was likely happening was that fuel was sitting on top of that water in the VST. When your demand for fuel increased beyond 3000 RPM, it started sucking in water.

Somewhere along the line your on-board fuel/water separator failed AND your external fuel/water separator also failed. When you disassemble the VST, inspect the float ears, float pin, needle valve, and needle valve seat very carefully. Use a magnifying glass - no corrosion, no groves, no deformation. If questionable, replace all.

Drain your fuel lines and replace the LP and HP fuel filters again and replace the filter element in your external f/w separator.

Assuming that nothing is damaged internally, the infusion of water into the cylinders likely did a good job of decarbonizing your engine.
 
I sort of kept thinking about that incredible 12 ounces of water in the VST. You may have enough water in your fuel tank that it is overwhelming the F/W separators. So you might want to consider draining the bottom of your fuel tank.

You can jack up the front of your trailer, then jack up one of the wheels so that any water in the tank will accumulate in one corner of your tank. Give it some time for the water to settle into that bottom corner. Then remove the plate holding the pick up tube, or the plate where your fuel level sensor is located. Use a draw pump with a long pickup hose worked down into that corner to pump out any water. If you use a translucent bucket, it will be more obvious when you stop pumping water and start pumping fuel. Many years ago I bought an aftermarket electric fuel pump for just this purpose.
 
I decided to start working on motor #2. I still have number 1 apart due to some gaskets I had to order from taking the front intake off to get to the VST. Took the shroud off of the number 2 and decided to just drain the VST. Tried to open the screw, frozen. One drill bit and an ez out and she was history. Glad I did. Had about 10 oz of water in that puppy. That baby was probably getting ready to start acting like the other one. I bought this boat last July so Im guessing that the guy got bad fuel or didn't treat the fuel. The boat was up in Mass. and sat for a 1.5 yrs. I pulled the one VST apart and everything looked good, no corrosion at all and the needle and seat looked great. Pressurized the system and checked and high speed pump, pegged at 46 and leveled at 41.5. Both motors did the same as far as high pressure pump readings. The one thing I don't understand is the water separator on the motor had no water in it. I pulled both apart to verify that the floats work by putting water in the bowels and they lifted as they should. How can water get to the VST with the motor water seperator operational? What is supposed to happen when the float lifts? Changing the oil in both and lower gear case oil. that sucked on oil filter change. You would think the oil would drain back through the motor, real messy. You guys think of anything I might be missing let me know. Parts should be here sat or monday, stay tuned. Mike
 
I posted but some reason did not post. Second try. I took #2 apart and went to drain the VST. Well the drain screw was frozen, drill bit and ez-out done. Openned it and I had about 10 oz of water out of that puppy. Don't understand why the motor water separator would not form you that that was happening. Checked the floats in both and worked as far as introducing water and they lift. so what does every one think?
 
I have twin 225 on a 28ft mako. I do not understand what you want me to explain with more preciseness. Please ask and I will explain. Thought I was pretty clear....
 
Do you have external fuel/water separators, like Racor's? If not, you should install them. I would recommend the Racor B32013. They are very easy to drain and very easy to change out the filter element, which should be done at the end of every season.

http://www.marineengineparts.com/racor-b32013-fuel-filter-water-separator-assembly.html

Somehow you have gotten a lot of water into your fuel which has accumulated in the VST on both engines. You need to figure out why and is that condition still present. I strongly suspect that you have water in your fuel tank and the on-board fuel/water separators are either being overwhelmed, or are not functioning for some reason. Those on-board separators are only designed to separate out small amounts of water. That's why you need the external ones.

Somewhere around 2005, Honda changed the on-board F/W separator with one that has a water float connected to a switch that triggers an alarm if the inside float gets about 1/2 of the way up the bowl. The alarm is a very rapid beeping.

Consider the source of your fuel. Marina's are notorious for having water laced into their fuel for the simple fact that off-season, the water sits in the storage tanks for long periods of time exposed to humid air which condenses in the tank. The same goes for your outboard tanks. Over time a lot of water can accumulate in those tanks.

You very likely have water in your fuel tank and you don't know how much until you drain it. Once drained, and with the installation of external F/W separators, you should not have a problem for a long time.
 
I have 2 onboard Racor water separators, one for the front tank and one for the main tank. When I bought the boat last yr it had been sitting for over a yr. I bought it up in mass. When I got it home I put all new filters on the motors and the onboard. There was no water in any of them. I just changed them again when I winterized and no water in them at that time. Now that I have the boat down here in Florida I changed them again, no water. The part I don't understand is the motor water separator, before the low pressure filter, had no water in it either. I verified by pouring water into the bowl to see if the float lifts and it seems to be working properly. Where else could I get that much water in both motors? Could it have been there from the start and accumulated over the yrs? Why was I able to use the boat most of last yr and not see this problem until now? Why wouldn't the motor water separator collect the water pryer to it getting to the VST? What happens when there is water in the motor separator and lifts the float? Sorry for not being to precise in my previous post was having a get together last night and the Tanguary was going down pretty good,lol. Mike
 
Good for you on the Tanquery!

If you have on-board Racor's with new filter elements, this should not have happened. I guess that it's possible that the water was already in the VST's when you bought the boat.

At this point my only suggestion is just put it all back together, run the heck out of it, then check the F/W separators and drain the VST again to see if the problem is still there.

Hopefully some of the other knowledgeable 225 owners will jump in with their insights.
 
Got to thinking about this again. Given that the VST drains screws were frozen, it may have been that it was a very long time since they were last drained, if ever. So it is possible that water has been accumulating in there for a long time. As I suggested above, I would just put it all back together, run the heck out of it, then check the F/W separators and drain the VST again to see if the problem is still there.
 
I change all filters and oil very 100 hrs. What exactly does the motor water separator do. I thought that was supposed to be a fail safe. Once the bowl starts to accumulate water and the float lifts what does the motor due. Is there alarms, or does the motor reduce rpm for fail safe? Thanks
 
I'm suggesting that the water may have already been in the VST's before you bought your boat.

On the 2003 BF 225's maintenance of the on board F/W separator just called for visual inspection at every oil change - 100 hours. If the float was elevated, or sediment was present, you simply emptied and cleaned the bowl. Starting somewhere around 2005 or 2006, the float was hooked to a switch that would sound an alarm if the float got significantly elevated. That alarm is a very rapid beep. However, if that alarm sounds, the ECU does not do anything to adjust the engine that I am aware of.

I doubt if you have that newer F/W separator. You can tell because the new ones have two wires coming out of the bottom of the bowl.
 
I have that same water separator on both motors. 2 wires coming out of the bottom but never got an alarm. I need to verify that these are operating properly. The parts I ordered should be here Tuesday am so that is when Ill get right to it. Thanks
 
Testing those is simple. Remove it from its harness and unplug the 2-pin connector. Test continuity between the two prongs of the connector from the bowl. When the bowl is right side up (float on bottom of bowl), there will be no continuity. Turn it upside down, (float at top of bowl), you should have continuity. When the ECU detects continuity, it sounds a rapid alarm. Make sure the float moves freely up and down.
 
Thanks to everyone who helped me out in this issue. I put her in this am and ran it down the ST LUCIE and she performed beautifully. Cruise at 28kts at 4200 and ran her through all the RPM'S up to 5700 rpm and doing 35kts. She pins out at 5700 with 15 pitch props. I never run her up there but had to take look. My cruise is 4000 to 4200 hardly ever go above that except once in awhile to clean her out. Very happy Capt, thanks again. Mike
 
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