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Evinrude V4 Looper Quickstart issues

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rotus623

Contributing Member
Hey guys, the issues with this motor are seemingly endless. Had to put a reman powerhead on her because of a previous overheat. Been having hard start issues, and still do. It is caused by the timing.

E130txoar 1995 V4 Looper 130hp

Timing bounces back and forth while the engine is in Quickstart. (Motor backfires and is hard to start. Runs GREAT once quickstart has disengaged) Disconnect yellow/red wire and ground out white/black wire and quickstart STILL tries to engage (which is not supposed to happen). Once the white/black wire is grounded out from the pack, it goes out of quickstart after the first 5 seconds and runs fine. The ONLY way the engine will not enter quickstart is if I disconnect the 4 pin amphenol connector from the timer base to the powerpack. I swapped out the timer base with a known good timer base and still have the same issue.

When cranking the motor over to do the Joe Reeves WOT timing procedure, the motor advances to its quickstart timing, whether yellow/red wire is connected or not. Again, if I disconnect the 4 pin connector from the timer base, timing goes back to normal.

Sent powerpack to CDI for warranty, they checked it and said it was NOT faulty. I argued that I really felt it was, and they sent me a brand new powerpack.
I STILL HAVE THE SAME ISSUE!!!!!

I do not have voltage coming in from the yellow/red wire unless the key is being turned. There is no voltage coming in from the kill circuit.

My only guess at this point is that maybe I have a short and voltage being fed in from the ground??

This motor also has the original black ignition coil wires instead of the new grey ones. Could this be a culprit?

Spark plugs are the correct Champions.

Thanks guys, I am really pulling my hair out here................
 
OK....oooffff....
First off, you should have NOSPARK when the four pin amphenol connector is disconnected.
How the heck do you have spark?
With that Amphenol connector disconnected, there will be no timerbase pulses.

Explain.

Secondly, the erratic spark timing you report when QS is engaged is NORMAL.
Timing jumps all over the place, and any measurements of timing whiile QS is engaged are pointless.
When QS ids-engages, the timing goes steady.

Thirdly, using Joe's static timing procedure with an engine that has QS is problematic. The reason is because you have to disable QS, and that can be a problem. Joe's static method was developed before QS days. Also, you are using a CDI pack, and none of these procedures were developed with CDI electronics. This may or may not be a problem but it could be a factor......for example maybe the QS disengage is different....you cannot just assume the CDI pack will work the exact same way the OMC pack does.

So, explain how you have spark with the Amphenol connector disconnected.....that's the oddball.....
(That is the Amphenol with 4 wires, green, purple, blue and white?)
 
daselbee said:
OK....oooffff....
First off, you should have NOSPARK when the four pin amphenol connector is disconnected.
How the heck do you have spark?
With that Amphenol connector disconnected, there will be no timerbase pulses.

Explain.

Secondly, the erratic spark timing you report when QS is engaged is NORMAL.
Timing jumps all over the place, and any measurements of timing whiile QS is engaged are pointless.
When QS ids-engages, the timing goes steady.

Thirdly, using Joe's static timing procedure with an engine that has QS is problematic. The reason is because you have to disable QS, and that can be a problem. Joe's static method was developed before QS days. Also, you are using a CDI pack, and none of these procedures were developed with CDI electronics. This may or may not be a problem but it could be a factor......for example maybe the QS disengage is different....you cannot just assume the CDI pack will work the exact same way the OMC pack does.

So, explain how you have spark with the Amphenol connector disconnected.....that's the oddball.....
(That is the Amphenol with 4 wires, green, purple, blue and white?)
Click to expand...

Das, thanks for the indepth response. I have chatted with you on another forum in the past.

The last powerpack that I had on here (which was also CDI), when I disconnected the yellow/red wire, (using the reeves method) timing would drop and be at the ACTUAL place it would be during a WOT run . Then when I reconnected the yellow/red wire the timing would advance 10 degrees. This pack was also 7-8 years older though.

There are two plugs coming from the timer base. One has 5 wires, the other has 4. The 5 wire plug tells the motor when to fire during normal operation. (There is NO engine fire when this plug is disconnected.) The 4 wire plug tells the motor when to fire when QS is engaged (as far as I understand.) With this disconnected the engine fires at normal timing.

I didn't realize that QS timing would bounce all over. The problem is that the motor is hard starting and backfires and sputters WHILE QS is "engaged" and as soon as it drops out the motor sounds amazing.

I was also told that the orange and orange/black wires are the power coil wires and they also can trigger QS to engage.

Lastly, is there a way to permanently disengage QS?

Thanks for your time Das.
 
Last edited:
PS......I do the WOT timing while the engine is running. It is a variation of Joe's method,
but you do not have to disable QS.

PM me if you want to know how, or just search my username here and on i *b *o *a *t *s
 
I have to admit that you already know more about the TB to pack relationship regarding the amphenol connectors and their functions.
I was pulling from my memory regarding the V6 TB and pack wiring, where both leads are 4 pin Amphenols, and disconnecting either one kills spark. I do know that fact for sure. Goes to show, you cannot assume.

Possible the QS function is initiated by voltage coming up on the orange pair? Maybe....I always went by the fact that +12v present on the yellow red wire when key is in start position was the QS initiation signal.
Then it times out....usually 10 secs or so after start.
 
daselbee said:
I have to admit that you already know more about the TB to pack relationship regarding the amphenol connectors and their functions.
I was pulling from my memory regarding the V6 TB and pack wiring, where both leads are 4 pin Amphenols, and disconnecting either one kills spark. I do know that fact for sure. Goes to show, you cannot assume.

Possible the QS function is initiated by voltage coming up on the orange pair? Maybe....I always went by the fact that +12v present on the yellow red wire when key is in start position was the QS initiation signal.
Then it times out....usually 10 secs or so after start.
Click to expand...


You didn't assume anything. You just asked me to explain where I was coming from :) Only reason I figured it out was because I have been searching for answers.

The tech at CDI that I talked to didnt know anything about the quickstart feature. All he could tell me was to use the QL78YC plugs or QL77JC4. But, Evinrude now recommends using QL82YC, and that is what I have on there now. Maybe I should use the plugs that CDI says to use since it is their ignition product? Either way I doubt it matters.

What would make the QS be so erratic? I know a bad timer base could do it, but BOTH of my bases check out perfectly.
 
I had a similar issue with 2000 Ocean Pro 200, I going to say check the power coil side of the stator. This send power to the QS and ignition circuit, I replaced my stator and all is good now.
 
chasobx said:
I had a similar issue with 2000 Ocean Pro 200, I going to say check the power coil side of the stator. This send power to the QS and ignition circuit, I replaced my stator and all is good now.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the advice chasobx!! What exactly were your issues?

My stator is brand new CDI. I checked the orange and orange/black wires and they are produceing 50v AC as required by spec.

Update for Fazt and Dasel.

Fazt, I checked the blocking diode in the wiring harness and it checked out fine. Double checked my work!!

Dasel, I indexed the flywheel. ALL cylinders are having their timing skip around about 10 degrees while quickstart is activated, steadily back and forth. Each cylinder is only firing when it is supposed to be (meaning I only see the number 1 with the timing light while connected to cyl 1, etc.)

Checked keyswitch, and it is in good working order.

Checked starter solenoid and it is functioning properly.

Quickstart "tries" to engage whether or not the Yellow/red trigger wire is connected.

I disconnected the 4pin amphenol harness (advanced timing timer base) and voila, quickstart does not try to engage. Motor starts right up and runs great. No more timing bouncing around. I have 2 timer bases and they BOTH do the same exact thing. Here is an illustration to show what I am referring to. Wire harness on the right is the one that I have disconnected. (Motor will not start if other harness is disconnected (as expected.)



Everything that I have done points to a bad powerpack. But this issue has surfaced with 2 packs, and the last one was checked by CDI and had no issues according to them.
 
Obviously, I can do without QS, but am afraid to run the motor without the advanced timing harness connected. I do not want to fry the scrs or windings in the ignition system.
 
Effinest (is that a word?) thing I ever heard of.....

Still thinking. Somehow it is double firing (maybe, I know I read the above) or firing way out of time.

Maybe Fazt has a flywheel you could try. Maybe a crack in the timer magnet ring....
 
Whats the best way to check for double firing pack?
If timing light is on #1, you should never see any other numbered positions on an indexed flywheel at the timing pointer, right?
If timing light is on #1, you should see #1 at the tming pointer, AND if you move the light 90* CCW, then you should see #2 mark, then another 90* move, and you should see #3 mark...etc.....AND ONLY THOSE MARKS.....right?

So, if one cyl is firing out of time, could you pull plug wire one at time, trying all four singly, to see if any one cylinder is causing the backfire? Maybe you could locate it that way.....
 
daselbee said:
Whats the best way to check for double firing pack?
If timing light is on #1, you should never see any other numbered positions on an indexed flywheel at the timing pointer, right?
If timing light is on #1, you should see #1 at the tming pointer, AND if you move the light 90* CCW, then you should see #2 mark, then another 90* move, and you should see #3 mark...etc.....AND ONLY THOSE MARKS.....right?

So, if one cyl is firing out of time, could you pull plug wire one at time, trying all four singly, to see if any one cylinder is causing the backfire? Maybe you could locate it that way.....
Click to expand...

Effingist thing is right!!! The magnets in both timer bases are A-OK. I did move the light 90 degrees and did see only the correct numbers.

The backfiring is just on startup. And it is happening because the timing is bouncing around. There is NO backfiring, or issues at all for that matter once QS is kicked out.

At this point I am thinking about running the engine with the 4pin connector unhooked. What could the harm be? If the .5V coming through the timer base has nowhere to go, it wont hurt anything will it? And if the powerpack never GETS the signal from that connector what harm could it do? I would ground the white/black connector out and disconnect the 4 pin connector and let her fly??

Hard to believe I would have 2 bad timer bases or 2 bad powerpacks back to back, and having the same issues?? Puzzling really. Time for some vodka and pepsi...............
 
Vodka and 180.....180 is an energy drink from years back. 2000 or so.

Yeah I get what you are saying...just haven't figgered it out yet.....,

So if you disconnect one cyl at a time at startup....everything connected except the plug wire...and you find it never backfires on #2 disconnect, for example....OK then what?

hmmmm....
 
daselbee said:
Vodka and 180.....180 is an energy drink from years back. 2000 or so.

Yeah I get what you are saying...just haven't figgered it out yet.....,

So if you disconnect one cyl at a time at startup....everything connected except the plug wire...and you find it never backfires on #2 disconnect, for example....OK then what?

hmmmm....
Click to expand...

I hear ya, but all the cylinders have a 10 degree advance when I crank the motor ( with spark plug wires disconnected). I think it is a systemic issue, not related to one cylinder.

Lemme know how that rust 180 treats ya!!
 
So, I grounded out the powerpack DIRECTLY to the battery, and still no change.

Motor fires up and runs just perfectly if I leave that "advanced timing" connector disconnected. It was 20 degrees and she fired right up..........

I wish I could find a schematic on these powerpacks. I talked to CDI again this morning and they said it could be a bad (tan wire) temp switch, but even when I disconnect the tan wire from the pack I still get the same issue so I do not think that is my problem.

I am thinking about trying a new flywheel, but what the heck good would that be if I am running well after QS drops out. Mind boggling.
 
rotus623: I had a neighbor with your exact problem on a 1991 V4 Looper. After 6 weeks at a local marine service center....they could not solve the problem either. Wiring harness, trigger and powerpack were replaced with no luck. I had a stator from a blown motor and helped him change the stator with my old one.....and all his problems went away. I know its a long shot but you might try it. Not sure why....maybe we were lucky....but after $1100.00.....everything else was new..except stator and flywheel.
 
mstahl1171 said:
rotus623: I had a neighbor with your exact problem on a 1991 V4 Looper. After 6 weeks at a local marine service center....they could not solve the problem either. Wiring harness, trigger and powerpack were replaced with no luck. I had a stator from a blown motor and helped him change the stator with my old one.....and all his problems went away. I know its a long shot but you might try it. Not sure why....maybe we were lucky....but after $1100.00.....everything else was new..except stator and flywheel.
Click to expand...

Wow, thanks for sharing. So was his motor bouncing in and out until QS disengaged? That is a long time and a huge headache for sure!!!! Unfortunately for me, I have put on a brand new stator as well, and it did not solve the issue.

The only parts that haven't been changed at this point are the rectifier, spark plug leads and flywheel. I think I am going to pull the flywheel again and check all the magnets to be extra sure. There is no rust under there so I do not believe anything to be loose.
 
rotus623 said:
Wow, thanks for sharing. So was his motor bouncing in and out until QS disengaged? That is a long time and a huge headache for sure!!!! Unfortunately for me, I have put on a brand new stator as well, and it did not solve the issue.

The only parts that haven't been changed at this point are the rectifier, spark plug leads and flywheel. I think I am going to pull the flywheel again and check all the magnets to be extra sure. There is no rust under there so I do not believe anything to be loose.
Click to expand...

Yes...Bouncing in and out until the QS was disengaged...just like yours. I also remembered that the service shop also tried a regular starting battery as opposed to a deep cycle starting battery...No joy! The shop was so flustered that they gave up.

I doubt its your spark plug leads or voltage rectifier. I guess it could be a damaged flywheel..but not sure how that would cause your issue. It seems like there is a stray voltage that is not allowing the QS to disengage. You have checked all the engine wiring? Unwrapped all the tape and verified the harness is good? Tested all the leads for propper ohms and voltage? I know this sounds crazy but have you check the ignition key switch? Maybe its feeding voltage back thru another circuit? Have you tried to isolate the wiring harness on the boat side of your main red plug? You can make a few jumpers and run the motor with out the red plug connected in the boat side.

Sorry if you tried these things...I know what I tried to help my neighbor...the stator was a last ditch thing but it worked.

Mark
 
mstahl1171 said:
Yes...Bouncing in and out until the QS was disengaged...just like yours. I also remembered that the service shop also tried a regular starting battery as opposed to a deep cycle starting battery...No joy! The shop was so flustered that they gave up.

I doubt its your spark plug leads or voltage rectifier. I guess it could be a damaged flywheel..but not sure how that would cause your issue. It seems like there is a stray voltage that is not allowing the QS to disengage. You have checked all the engine wiring? Unwrapped all the tape and verified the harness is good? Tested all the leads for propper ohms and voltage? I know this sounds crazy but have you check the ignition key switch? Maybe its feeding voltage back thru another circuit? Have you tried to isolate the wiring harness on the boat side of your main red plug? You can make a few jumpers and run the motor with out the red plug connected in the boat side.

Sorry if you tried these things...I know what I tried to help my neighbor...the stator was a last ditch thing but it worked.

Mark
Click to expand...

Mark, you are one smart cookie. I agree with you as rectifier, plug leads and flywheel are all unlikely. These are all great ideas here. I checked both sides of the wiring harness for ground faults and could not find them, but didn't check them for stray voltage. I did check the key switch (which is NOT crazy at all because that can cause the yellow plug to get 12v after starting.) I also disconnected all of the wires that lead to the powerpack that are not necessary for operation (tan wire, kill switch, yellow/red wire, yellow wires from stator to rectifier) and started her up and she STILL erratically fired. The only wires that were coming into the powerpack were the orange and orange/black power coil wires from the stator, and the timer base wiring, which all test perfectly.

After your reply, I will find out what in the wiring harness needs to be connected AT THE VERY LEAST to get this engine to start up, then I will make some jumpers to those connections and see if the issue clears.

I was reading up on SCR's and if the voltage/amperage does not reach high enough, the "gates" will not lock open to allow the switch to stay open. My battery seems to turn the starter motor over well, but it a pretty old battery. The guy at CDI told me that if it is starting it shouldn't be the issue, but maybe, just maybe, not quite enough AMPERAGE is making it through the yellow/red wire to keep that SCR open and allow QS to stay engaged...... Does that sound like a good theory? I know CDI's and bad batteries are not made for each other!! Wouldn't I feel like an idiot..........
 
Wow...you have done it all.

I don't think its the battery. It only cranks..after that the motor runs off its voltage provided by the stator. You could run it down to your local auto shop and have them load test the battery. Could be a bad cell....maybe...but doubt that. As you know...with electronics....its the dumb stuff that gets you. I spent 12 yrs working of Avionics and Electrical Systems for Navy Aircraft...I've seen a lot and you can never rule any theory out till you actually test it.

If I had to Guess....It sounds like the stator or timer base..I'm betting on the stator...it may have good ohm readings but breaks down when a load is applied. Like I said before...my neighbor had the service shop test everything and they said the stator was just fine. We checked it and it seemed fine but since everything else was replaced but the stator and flywheel... I replaced the stator from an old 140HP and BAM...problem solved.

I say try the easy dumb stuff first....and if all that checks out...try the stator. Keep me posted...I love the tough ones!!!
 
mstahl1171 said:
Wow...you have done it all.

I don't think its the battery. It only cranks..after that the motor runs off its voltage provided by the stator. You could run it down to your local auto shop and have them load test the battery. Could be a bad cell....maybe...but doubt that. As you know...with electronics....its the dumb stuff that gets you. I spent 12 yrs working of Avionics and Electrical Systems for Navy Aircraft...I've seen a lot and you can never rule any theory out till you actually test it.

If I had to Guess....It sounds like the stator or timer base..I'm betting on the stator...it may have good ohm readings but breaks down when a load is applied. Like I said before...my neighbor had the service shop test everything and they said the stator was just fine. We checked it and it seemed fine but since everything else was replaced but the stator and flywheel... I replaced the stator from an old 140HP and BAM...problem solved.

I say try the easy dumb stuff first....and if all that checks out...try the stator. Keep me posted...I love the tough ones!!!
Click to expand...

Cool man, thanks for the enthusiasm.

So, the good news is, it is 18 degrees here tonight, and my motor started right up!! So at least it will start in the cold, because this was one of the reasons that I was stressing this so hard.

Here is what I checked tonight. I hooked a much newer battery up to the motor and same thing. Next, I dropped the idle timing waaaaaayyyy down, to put the motor in 6-700rpms in neutral, same problem. Last but not least, I ruled out a bad boat side wire harness because I completely disconnected the wiring harness and used my remote starter to start up the engine, then just manually grounded the kill circuit. Same issue.

So, this motor had an issue with quickstart with the old stator also. BUT one thing did change when I put the new stator, powerpack, and timer base on.

On the last setup, QS would NOT engage with the yellow/red wire connected. Now, with this new stator, QS DOES try to engage with the yellow wire disconnected. I think you may be right. I think I have a faulty stator right out of the box. I think I am going to pull it and send it back to CDI for testing.
 
I have disconnected ALL of the wires coming into the powerpack, except for the orange and orange/black from the power coil, and the timer base. Thats IT!!!!!

I suspect bad AC voltage coming in. The new stator tests a little low for resistance (93-103 is spec, and I get 89). ALSO, they painted over everything with the reman powerhead. I had to sand down the contact points for the ignition coils and where the starter grounds to the block. Guess what I didn't sand down? The places where the stator sets on the motor (as seen below). Although, I would think the 4 screws that hold the stator down would be a good enough ground.

 
rotus623 said:
I have disconnected ALL of the wires coming into the powerpack, except for the orange and orange/black from the power coil, and the timer base. Thats IT!!!!!

I suspect bad AC voltage coming in. The new stator tests a little low for resistance (93-103 is spec, and I get 89). ALSO, they painted over everything with the reman powerhead. I had to sand down the contact points for the ignition coils and where the starter grounds to the block. Guess what I didn't sand down? The places where the stator sets on the motor (as seen below). Although, I would think the 4 screws that hold the stator down would be a good enough ground.
Click to expand...
Sound like you are on the right track....see...its the dumb things.....I bet you'll be fine now!! :cool:
 
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