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Used '04 225 twin Hondas. Please chime in before I send the check.

B

btravlin2

Regular Contributor
Hi......I'm considering a long-distance purchase of these motors. They are 25", and according to the mechanic......very clean. According to the owner, they have been lift-kept their whole life. (Yes I know. Take everything said with a grain of salt)

After doing research here in the archives I'm aware of issues that can be encountered with these motors. The more I read, the more I realize that even though they are Hondas, I could still potentially make a big mistake.

According to the computer, they have 830 hours. The codes are saying one O2 sensor is bad. No overheat events or low oil pressure.

One spark plug won't come out. I'm still waiting for the compression results from the others.

As I understand it, here are the problems that can develop with these motors:

-thrust bearing failure
-tensioner failure, causing timing belt failure, causing damaged valves
-block corrosion, causing pin-hole leaks (in the water jacket?)
-oil pan corrosion
-exhaust tube corrosion (is this like what's happening with Yamahas?)

Am I missing anything else?

OK, I'm pretty handy, and if I get over my head, I've got a good friend who is a very good OB mechanic. On the face of it, the only issue that scares me is the frozen spark plug. How is that dealt with?

I'm using a Honda mechanic long-distance to survey these motors. But he said something that makes me wonder if he's any good. He said, "The spark plug won't come out probably because of carbon buildup on the threads inside. Run some Ring Free through and it should finally come out."

Does anyone here buy that?

I could sure use some feedback before I make the decision. Thanks.....
 
The issue with the spark plug not coming out could be an indication that there has been water intrusion in the cylinder. I'll bet that it is #6. If so, these engines likely have not had the modified exhaust tubes installed in accordance with Honda Service Bulletin #56. Send me an e-mail at [email protected] and I will sent the SB. Honda sells a kit for about $200 to do the replacement. People who have done it say that it takes about a day. BTW - you need to remove the left side of the cowling to get to that plug.

I strongly advise that you get that spark plug out before purchase so it can be inspected as well as the cylinder inspected in the inside. A couple of days of PB Blaster soaked around the threads and judicious use of an impact wrench might do the trick.

Also, the pre-07 engines have a potential problem with the mid-shaft bearing freezing and wobbling around in its seat which can chew right through the housing. Tell your mechanic to drop the lower end and look up the drive shaft and inspect the state of that bearing.

Having said all of that, these are really good engines if properly maintained. I have over nearly 1800 hours on my 2007 BF 225 and it still runs great.
 
Thanks for the reply chawk. I was already thinking of requiring the seller to remove the spark plug. Better him than me if the threads get messed up.

#6 cyl and SB56. I'll ask him about that.

If water has gotten into that cylinder, what will the inside look like? Is it toast?

So why do these mid-shaft bearings freeze? And what is the percentage of motors that this happens to? All of them, or hit and miss?
 
The mid-shaft bearing problem seems to be hit & miss. Most people who have had the problem speculate that it fails because there is insufficient cooling (raw) water getting to the bearing. Somewhere between 05 and 07 Honda redesigned the lower cowling to allow more water to get to that bearing.

If SB 56 was performed on those engines by a dealer, Honda should have a record of it. Get the engine serial numbers and call Honda Customer Service Customer at 770-497-6400.

If water got into the cylinder, you'll see more corrosion around the spark plug and top end of the head. In some cases that can be fatal, but if it was only a momentary incursion and the engine still runs well afterward, it will probably be ok. Check that there is no water in the oil.
 
Hi.....in my research on this site and others, I've come across something important. Honda insists the exhaust ports be 6" above the WL, loaded down, at rest. I understand this, as it implies that water intrusion issues may have an awful lot to do with correct mounting.

I'm buying a Stamas 288 Liberty hull with factory fiberglass bracket. I'm buying (I hope) the 225 Hondas from another seller to put on the Stamas. I have no way of knowing how these motors will sit in the water until after they are mounted. They are heavier than the 225 Ocean Runners that were on it.

If they sit too low and there is no room on the bracket to raise the motors further, I will have to build up the bracket with more fiberglass laminations (which I wouldn't be able to do with an aluminum Armstrong, so that's a positive).

But, that could mean these 25" shafts will be too short! And in fact, I need 30".

Best case scenario....they sit right. Second best scenario......move some weight from aft to bow. After that, it gets more and more complicated. Worst case scenario......I have to sell the motors because I need 30".

25" shafts were original factory length, but the old 2-strokes were lighter.
 
Yes, the exhaust ports need to be at least 5.9" above the water line per Honda specifications. Furthermore, the anti-cavitation plate should be even with the bottom most part of the keel if a transom mount. For every 12" of offset from the transom, the anti-cavitation plate should be raised 1 inch above the keel line.

Each motor weighs about 625 lbs.

If weight re-distribution doesn't do the trick, then a possible work around could be to install adjustable jack plates on your motor extension IF you have enough material on the end of the motor extension to do it.
 
These are twins and therefore keel/offset, the boat is very wide (11-2"), and the bracket is 24" from transom to mount. I'm hoping this combination will allow me to mount the motors high enough and still have the cavitation plate in the right place.

The width, along with the modified vee (instead of a deep vee), should give the boat more resistance to being pushed down from extra weight. Plus, I get an additional 2" above the hull bottom because of the distance from the transom. Hopefully I will have enough adjustment to get it right.

But I've still got to see about this stuck plug, and if the seller will address it.
 
Sorry 'bout that - I forgot that you are dealing with twins. Still, the basic theory is the same. On plane in flat water at WOT the anti-cavitation plates on each engine should be just skimming the water. At rest, the exhaust ports at least 5.9 inches above the water line.

Hopefully, Mike or one of the other folks on this forum who have experience mounting twins will jump in and give some tips on proper measurements for setting them up.
 
Thanks for all the help.

I just got the compression #'s. All were between 185-200psi, except for three plugs that are stuck:

#3 Port
#3 Stb
#6 Port

The seller is cooperating. He is going to use PB Blaster over 2 days and mild impact to get the plugs out. And then he is going to take a look with a scope.

After having researched this site, 3 frozen plugs tells me these motors were mounted too low and got some water in them. It probably also indicates that the owner didn't change the plugs very often. And even without the serial #'s, it's likely the exhaust tubes haven't been updated, ala SB56.

Assuming the plugs come out, what would the scope show to indicate the condition of the cylinders? Are we looking for rust, corrosion, or both? In other words, how do I conclude if the cylinders are good or shot?:confused:
 
Okay - the compression is acceptable. A good de-carbing with something like Yamalub Ring Free will likely improve those numbers.

Of course, you probably don't have the compression numbers for the cylinders that have the stuck plugs. You'll need to get those. The lowest and the highest should be no more than 10% apart on either engine.

Having several stuck plugs does not necessarily indicate water intrusion, it just indicates that those plugs may have been in there for a long time. However, the fact that all three are in bottom cylinders, coupled with a failed HO2 sensor, would give me concern with possible water incursion. When the stuck plugs come out, have them send you a color picture of all twelve, labeled with the engine and cylinder they came out of. That should show whether or not all have been firing properly - a nice uniform light brown color - or that you have a serious problem - black soot, burned electrodes, etc. If all the compression numbers come in within the 10% margin, then your cylinders are likely OK and a proper mounting of the engines and installing the new style exhaust tubes should do the trick.

A scoping of the cylinders with a fiber optic camera should work fine. You are looking for excess corrosion and/or rust. If it's a really good camera you should also see excessive carbon build up.

If you do purchase these engines, make one more investment in the Official Helm Shop Manual. It cost about $116 on Amazon or eBay. It will save you many dollars in the long run - especially the diagnostic procedures and detailed maintenance procedures.
 
I know I'm jumping in late but just wanted to defend your mechanic in that I have plenty of experience with automotive engines...mostly Ford...that have stuck plugs. The 5.4L is famous for this and it is ALWAYS carbon buildup inside the head. Not sayin' that's the case here...but it COULD be. AND...if it is....attempting to force them out WITHOUT some preparatory treatment such as the mechanic suggested COULD result in the plugs breaking off in the head. If that happens...there are tools available that might work to get them out. The one made by LISLE is very effective on the Fords and is preferred by many techs.
Just thought you would like to know.
 
Agree with Jimmy's add in. I had two Fords with the 5.4L engine and both had to have the plugs changed at around 100,000 miles. On my pick-up three plugs broke off and had to be removed with the special tool. On my wife's expedition, four broke off and had to be removed with the special tool. In all cases, the carboned up plugs were the back ones near the firewall.

That could be the case here. But I have not seen anyone on this forum have that problem with the Honda engines.
 
I would like to add to this from my experience with my '03 honda 200s. Mine had extensive corrosion to the thermostat housings on both motors, so badly corroded that they were spewing water out of hose and housing connection.
Also in regards timing belt tensioner, make sure the idler pulleys also move freely and bearings aren't seizing up. That happened to me and cost me 24 bent valves..Im curious...what is the price tag for the twins?
 
Hi.....it'll likely be another day or so before the seller tries to remove the plugs......after the PB Blaster has done it's job.

Likewise, in all the threads I've researched on these motors, I haven't seen carbon as the reason for these plugs to freeze. Tell the truth, I'd rather see carbon than corrosion, I think. Ring Free or Techron will take care of carbon.

All I want to say about price is we agreed to a price per motor that is below the average I've seen in used 4-strokes of this size and hours. I mean, I've been looking at used 4-strokes for a long time, and mostly I'm seeing 6-8k each. On top of that, in our market it's almost entirely the older Yamahas with the crippling exhaust corrosion issues (02'-07'). So I feel good about price, if the plugs and cylinders are clean.

If I go through with the purchase, the first thing I'll do is the exhaust kit, thermostats, check the mid-shaft bearing, and replace the idler pulleys. Maybe the belt too. All the usual stuff to bring them up to speed.
 
I wasn't being nosey, just wondering what I could fetch for mine if I decided to put newer ones on. I recently did the exhaust tubes and oil pan gasket. While I was at it, I did the midshaft bushing..It took about 3 1/2 hrs.Air tools are helpful.
 
Skooter.....I'd be interested, since I don't know if my current deal will go through. But in your other post you said you had 200's. My understanding is the only difference is the VTEC in the 225's, but that confuses me. Does that mean that under 4400 rpms the HP is the same, as in "zero" difference in performance at all speeds below 4400 rpms?

If that's the case, then the rating of 225hp only comes into play above 4400. And who runs above that for any length of time?
 
I'm not exactly sure about the difference in Vtec, im sure someone can answer this. To be honest, Im not sure what the vtec does.
 
between BF 200 and BF225 different is V-tec and the ECU rest everything is same. v- tech is the system which lift the intake valves more,so more air can enter to cylinder ,more O2 is more power, same time ECU should supply more fuel also. that 25hp is from this system.

that all i know,i know my explanation is not good, someone can explain better.

What is the PB Blaster ,i also had many case with stuck spark plugs, and some of we braked,

wajira
 
wajira...I think your "difference explaination" was just fine.

PB Blaster is a very effective "rust buster" spray that is sold everywhere in the USA. Mostly in auto parts and hardware stores. Maybe it's not marketed in the UAE?

A new product from WD-40 called "Release" is supposed to work just as well but I haven't tried it yet.

A VERY effective "penetrant" that I have used MANY times is called "Aero-Kroil". It is known as "THE OIL THAT CREEPS" and, in my opinion, it works BETTER than PB-Blaster. It is widely used by airplane mechanics. Very good at "unsticking" unit diesel injectors.
 
thank you "jgmo" next time i will try one of them, i think i can order from US,some old engines which not serviced long time plugs get stuck,in this case some seasonal use boat engines we use little bit of molybdenum grease on spark plug thread.

go back to thread, one more thing i want remind, rusted exhaust valve stem. it is happen on bottom cylinders,just for an information.


wajira
 
The seller got the 3 plugs out. There was no rust or corrosion on either the plug threads or the inside of the cylinders. The plugs just needed a boost from some penetrant and mild impact.

But he did say that all the plug tips were dry carbon-ish (as in black soot), not light brown. Without being an expert, it sounds like the motors were running rich. All the plugs were uniform in this. The tips weren't degraded.

Does anyone see a problem, being that the tips weren't light brown?
 
Engine running rich (black soot on plug tips) i could be because of failed O2 sensor. once its failed ECU supply more fuel.

sounds good if no corrosion mark on the plugs or cylinder, Those engines are less than 1000 hrs and not use for commercial fishing i would suggest to buy it , But if you can do sea trial with this engines for like 1/2 an hour it is better. bit worry coz long time they didn't go to the water.


wajira
 
BUT - why did they fail? Probably because of some water intrusion, so plan to have the new exhaust tubes installed IAW service bulleting #56 if you purchase the engines. Again, get the SN's and check with Honda's service folks to make sure they have not already been installed.
 
Well.....scope showed no rust or corrosion in the cylinders. I'm getting the motors for a pretty good price, which compensates for O2 sensors, exhaust kits, thermostats, and new impellers. So, I think I'll go ahead.

The motors are on stands, so I can't sea trial. I've gotten to know the seller to the point where I believe him when he says they were running well before taking off the boat. They were part of a trade-in.

I'm leaving tomorrow on a week-long trip to go get the boat the motors will be put on. I may not post again until I get back, since I don't much care for typing on a phone.

Thanks for the help......
 
Howdy folks.....I just completed a 7-day trip to the Northeast to bring back the boat. Fortunately I had a good trailer and big diesel F-350. Piece of cake. The boat is a Stamas 288.

The seller of the motors has done something unusual: he actually wanted to decarb the motors to see if it brought up the compression, so he put new oil back in and ran RingFree through them. I should know the numbers tomorrow.

I have another question. Is it necessary to replace the ECU when replacing the O2 sensor? That gets expensive.
 
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