Simple Question

Crusader 1991
350c in

Does the distributor have to be removed to replace the ignition pickup coil ????

(conflicting POV with two mechanics )

I'm thinking that you may have a few variables here.

The short answer... no! If access is OK, one might be able to change this part while the distributor remains installed.

Long asnwer..... yes, but based on the ease of working in this area if the engine bay area is somewhat restricted.
In other words...... if access to this area if tuff, one might prefer to remove the entire distributor, take it to the work bench, and replace the part there.


In short..... neither mechanic is correct or incorrect.
It just simply boils down to a preference...... and of course one method may involve more shop time than the other method.


In either event, ignition timing must be checked and/or re-set.


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it depends on the distributor....

going on memory, if it is an EST distributor, yes, it has to be removed.....for most others, no, it doesn't need to be removed.

Thanks guys...it is original equipment on a 1991 Crusader 350

In June after 3 hours of cruising he stbd engine rolled back about 40 rpm then 100 followed by500 then instantly quit.20 mins later I started that engine and it ran for 20 mins then quit again it did this repeatedly until at destination.

Marina MECH changed coil and module, new dist cap and rotor. Ran engine for 2 hours.....no problem All the trips since then were only one hour or less. Yesterday after 3 hours of cruising the engine did the same thing as it did inJune.

My home port mech says I should remove distributor and change the pickup coil The mechanic here says the distributor does no have to be removed.

Remember this is all original equipment

Simple solution.
Ask each shop for a "quote" to correct the problem (not an "estimate").
Compare prices, and go with the less expensive shop.

Either way, the sensor get's replaced.... yes/no?



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Yes that would work ����but the Marina I am stuck in is 300 miles from my mechanic at my home port������

In June after 3 hours of cruising he stbd engine rolled back about 40 rpm then 100 followed by500 then instantly quit.20 mins later I started that engine and it ran for 20 mins then quit again it did this repeatedly until at destination.

Click to expand...

Ayuh,..... Is the fuel tank vent clear,..??

Has any diagnosis of the fuel system been done,..??

Has anybody ran any Tests on these ignition components,..??

I donno what you've got, but I've never seen an ignition system that can't be Tested for component failure,.....

Oh,.... 'n yer simple question ain't so simple,....

As Rick said, access to it varies widely,...

I've seen 'em, that ya gotta pull the motor, to service it, at All,....

If your distro is a Delco EST unit, it will have to bepulled to change the pickup coil.

http://www.marinepartssource.com/crusaderpb/454fp23.asp

The drive gear must be removed to pull the shaft toremove the coil. But parts polka may bepremature. Remove the distro cap, unplug the pickup coil and check theresistance between the coil connections – should be 150 to 900 ohms or so. Then check the resistance between eachconnection and ground – should be infinite. If the resistance checks out, theproblem is “probably” not the pickup coil. Sounds like your ignition controlmodule (ICM) was already changed. Whileyou are in there it would be worth having the ICM checked. Unplug the two plugsand remove the two screws to separate the ICM from the distro. A local Auto Zone should be able to benchcheck it free of charge. They will run it through a few test cycles to warm itup – which is usually when they fail. Look forward to a success story. Good Luck.

Thanks guys. It is a Delco EST distributor. The local mechanic will be here tomorrow or Friday. I will let you know the outcome

The drive gear must be removed to pull the shaft toremove the coil.

Click to expand...

I love how the language has become so un-important these days. :rolleyes:

In most circles, the camshaft gear would be considered the "drive" gear, and the distributor gear would be considered the "driven" gear.


I know.... I know...... it's my pet peeve, and I'll own it!



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.."In most circles, the camshaft gear would be considered the "drive" gear, and the distributor gear would be considered the "driven" gear.
"

Unless the oil pump turns the camshaft it HAS to be that way!

Jeff

fastjeff said:

Ricardo said:

"In most circles, the camshaft gear would be considered the "drive" gear, and the distributor gear would be considered the "driven" gear. "

Click to expand...

Unless the oil pump turns the camshaft it HAS to be that way!

Jeff

Click to expand...

Jeff.... what if the oil pump does turn the distributor gear and the camshaft? Now what??? ...........

But I digress.... we'd best stay on task here.


.

Though I concur, I must say it is better than the useless descriptors like " it wont kick over...", etc...

The camshaft "Drive" gear turns the oil pump's "Driven" gear. Period.

Jeff

fastjeff said:

The camshaft "Drive" gear turns the oil pump's "Driven" gear. Period.

Jeff

Click to expand...

Jeff, I'm pretty sure that we all know that.... we're just having some fun here!


However, I am unclear as to whether the Kuhneutson Valve gear is a "drive" gear or a "driven" gear!
I'm researching this now!




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Hmm. We get the drive and driven when looking at two gears. But if I hold up a distributor, point at the gear, and say "what's that", a reasonable response might be "That is the drive gear for the distributor." Meaning that is what drives the distributor shaft which turns the distributor (and also the oil pump). So I don't think the instructions are poorly written at all. I also think (like Bondo), that I would be looking first a fuel supply issues.

CaboJohn said:

But if I hold up a distributor, point at the gear, and say "what's that", a reasonable response might be "That is the drive gear for the distributor." Meaning that is what drives the distributor shaft which turns the distributor (and also the oil pump).

Click to expand...

John, great point, and I fully understand.

Keeping up with the humor.... my reasonable response may be; "that's the "driven" gear that "drives" the distributor shaft that also "drives" the oil pump shaft where you'll find two more oil pump gears.
And I won't go on to describe either of those two!

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Then the starter is the only Drive gear since, after it's done its work, the rest are all Driven gears!


Don: With all this funning, I hope you got your "simple question" answered.

Jeff

UPDATE...................

Yes, we had to pull the distributer to change the ignition pick-up coil. When the distributor was pulled we noticed that one of the "wheel/cogs near the top was cracked and was hanging on by just a thread. I do not know the name of the part. I did find that the wires were pretty corroded where they slipped into the ignition pick-up coil. Just a minor adjustment to put the timing back to "perfect".

The engine starts a lot easier, runs much smoother but is the problem cured. WE went out for just an hour yesterday and had no problems but we do want to give it a 4 hour run as the last time the engine quit it was at hour #3. We will set the same power settings, in fact we will cruise the same route.

I will certainly let everyone know the final result............

Re...fuel problems... The boat has no anti-siphon piping, just an overflow pipe and we know that is clear. The water separator filter shows absolutely no water in the fuel. All hoses and piping have been tested and proven fully serviceable. We have not taken the mechanical fuel pump off and if the problem persists we may have to and check the membrane in the pump. Everyone I have talked to states in is almost "certainly" electrical so hopefully we have the problem solved.

Thanks to all of you that offered advice , posted links and helped this old man out. Have a nice week.

DKP

Glad you're running....

The broken piece, if affixed to the top of the shaft is termed a 'tooth' in the Delco literature I have...it lines up with the pole piece.

Well we finally found the answer.............

As many of you alluded to, it had to be electric or had to be fuel.

We did the final test when every electrical component was changed and 2+30 hours into the three hour voyage the engine quit.....again..

No one seemed to have an answer so for about three days I tried to remember every instance of each test run, as well as the initial failure, and I concluded that there was a common issue "just before" failure.

In every instance the vessel encountered very rough wakes or wind blown water, (rollers and basically rough water)......a few minutes prior to failure.

To me that led me to the gas tank and something in the tank..................to prove it I was taking the boat home today, (12 hour trip) and about 4 hours into relatively calm water we hit some turbulent water and a few minutes later the engine failed. I immediately turned off the feeding tank and went to cross feed and started the failed engine and it ran like a top.

About 1/2 an hour later we were in basically calm water so I went tank to engine and closed the cross feed..the engine ran well until we turned a corner 2 hours later and encountered about 5 heavy cruisers bearing down on us....rough wakes, lots of rolls and about 10 minutes later the engine failed. Back to cross feed and the engine started and ran well.

I am of the opinion I have a contaminate that is a floater/drifter but that can be mixed with the gas when the boat encounters any turbulent action and then settles around the sock on the pick-up tube and immediately "lets go" when the pump/engine is shut down.

I discussed my theory with one of the pros at my marina and he stated that one of the biggest problems we have up here in the Great White North is that most of us only use our boats for about 4 or 5 months and the rest of the time it sits on the hard and even with full tanks and stabilizer, the ethanol in the gas can do magic things and cause problems.
I was not aware that the stabilizer I use should also have an ingredient that stops ethanol from playing havoc with the gas.

Again I do know a friend that gassed up at the end of the year and got the dregs from the bottom of the station gas tank and had problems, but at least some of the stuff showed up in his filters.

Whether this is true or not......I do not know. I do know that the tank will be pumped out and we will use a bore scope to have a look in the tank and see if there is something amiss. I do know that my water separator filters always show positively no water.

The boat should be on the hard in a few days and when it can be arranged we will have a look in the tank....I will keep you informed.

Sounds like the "White Gook" got you alright.

Here's what this ethanol gas created crap looks like. It will go right through water separators and filters and, as you have seen, will not burn (and no known additive can change that). Swapping tanks, and letting good gas in, eventually gets it out of the carb, and away you go again as you have seen.

When you pump the tank out, if you let the gas sit overnight in container(s), and don't touch them, you can pump out the top 3/4 of each container and burn it safely in your car/ truck.

Jeff

Don: Excellent detective work!! I'd be inclined to think the issue is 'crud' clogging the screen vs the ethanol situation. I do believe the easy test to prove it wouldn't be to get her hauled but to just plumb a vacuum gauge into the suction side of the fuel line (before the pump) and then go find some 'rough water'. If its 'crud', the extra motion will stir it up and it will collect at the inlet of the pickup tube. That will show as an increased restriction on the gauge. If proven, the solution would be to have the tank 'polished' to remove the 'solids'....and I'd be inclined to do both.

I believe its 'crud' vs the ethanol gook as you have no issues (gook in the carb) restarting when the source is changed. I'm sure your wisedom will incorporate our collective suggestions and you'll enjoy the rest of the season with no more issues...good luck..

Well...we are moving on.............................The plan is to take out the fuel pick-up, remove the antiphon valve and all the hoses as well as the overflow hose....in fact I am going to remove and replace every piece of fuel related equipment starting with the fuel pick-up.. I will call it preventative maintenance The reason for this decision may cause some to ponder this entire episode but I have to look at it from my own experience and time I have had the boat.

I have owned the boat for 19 years, I have never had a fuel problem as I am a bit anal about making sure "good fuel" goes in and my water /fuel separators have NEVER shown any contaminant and I change the filters every year. You may recall that I indicated that the problem seems to occur when in rough water. My Admiral pointed out that on our return voyage to home base for winter storage the engine quit while we were on really quite calm water...very little roughness.

Where I store my boat on the hard is a small marina but does employs a marine mechanic well versed in the ins and outs of fuel and electrical problems and I discussed my problem at great length and he asked if I considered the effect ETHANOL has on "old" fuel lines (circa 1990). He stated that there is a possibility that the line on that tank could be delaminating and at any given time the delamination could cause fuel blockage while suction was being applied by the pump. The other scenario could be a faulty antiphon valve.

The antiphon valve is a sore point with me because the mechanic who initially started to work on the boat when we encountered this problem told me that because my boat was from the 1990 era I did not have antiphon valves in my fuel system...said he checked for one himself. Based on a bunch or research (Google is my best friend), I found that to be totally untrue. I am the second owner of the boat and I know for a fact that the original owner did absolutely nothing about anything mechanical, electrical, or fuel wise in the boat.......so he never took the antiphon valve out. I am positive the antiphon valve is just after the shut off valve and is enclosed in the 3/8" barb that then enters a fuel line that runs to the water separator/filter.

I have droned on long enough but suffice to say, anything that has to do with the passage of fuel in my boat is going to be replaced...in both fuel systems.

I have the two new fuel pick-up tubes but am wondering...................is there supposed to be a screen/sock on the end???. Mine are just the tube cut at an angle.

Thanks for your time and patience for reading this 'novel'. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

..."Mine are just the tube cut at an angle."

Mine are too. Sometimes a filter can be worse than nothing at all, causing inlet flow starvation. (For that reason, hydraulic pumps rarely have more than a crude strainer on the inlet.)

For my 32 Marinette, the next thing the gas met was the water separator strainer, used to get out the 'bowling balls'. Downstream of that was the e-fuel pump followed by a fine (10 micron) filter, then the carb with NO screen in the inlet. (If anything that big got through...)

Jeff

PS: There's nothing like a fuel pressure gage to tell you what's going on 'down there'. I know it's a pain to Tee in, but--boy!--it tells you what's really going on. Many a time I've stupidly 'locked in' on fuel supply problems when it was ignition, or visa versa.

Morning Jeff and thanks for the advice...

Went down this morning and dismantled the starboard fuel arrangement and..................Surprise !!!!!!!

My fuel tanks are outboard of each engine so the first issue is working conditions......not great when hanging over the front of the 350 !!

Got it all apart and went to pull the fuel pick up out............The pipe is a 24 inch stainless steel pipe......and I have 12 inches to work with above the tank before I hit the bottom of the deck !!!!!

So now...options.....
a) leave the pick-up alone
b) pull up about 10 inches, lock it with vise-grips and then cut(bolt cutters) or bend the pipe and continue doing that until the entire pipe is out. ( the replacements are standard poly ??? easy bend pipe)


I looked at the antiphon valve and it is NOT the one that seems to be standard now..(ball in the barb)

Mine was in a small brass connector,(two male ends), that joined the top end of the pick-up tube and the shutoff valve. An ordinary brass barb was after the shut-off valve.

I looked in the antiphon valve and noted that the steel ball was at the end of the brass piece as if there was pump pressure on the ball. I took a dental tool and fished around and took out quite a lot of debris, considering the small space in the antiphon valve..The ball then went back to where it should have been with no pump pressure.

So the question is...............could this debris be the culprit that allowed my engine to run for 3-4 hours and then quit and after a short wait, the engine could be started and ran again but this time for only about 30-40 minutes and then quit again??? ((( All gas filters clear and clean)))

I feel I am really am leaning toward getting the stainless pick-up tube out and replacing it so that I will have covered all bases. Lord knows how they made a stainless pick-up tube in 1991...sock/mesh on the end.???

Okay, you can cut the original out, but how on earth can you put the new one in?

Jeff

willow said:

I looked in the antiphon valve and noted that the steel ball was at the end of the brass piece as if there was pump pressure on the ball. I took a dental tool and fished around and took out quite a lot of debris, considering the small space in the antiphon valve..The ball then went back to where it should have been with no pump pressure.

So the question is...............could this debris be the culprit that allowed my engine to run for 3-4 hours and then quit and after a short wait, the engine could be started and ran again but this time for only about 30-40 minutes and then quit again???

Click to expand...

The answer to your question is "Yes!". I have a co-worker who, in an attempt to fix a stalling out problem, replaced numerous ignition parts before he removed the anti-siphon valve and found lots of foreign material in there clogging the flow. After cleaning it, the engine ran fine.

Just this week I replaced my 38-year-old aluminum fuel tanks. On the old tanks, I pulled out the fuel suction tubes and I was surprised to see that they were 3/8" stainless tubes cut at an angle, no strainer. My new tanks came with poly tubes cut straight with a wire mesh strainer sock attached. The bottom of the mesh sock extends about 1/4" below the bottom end of the tube.

It seems to me that replacing or just cleaning that anti-siphon valve should be your next step. I had a 1990 Silverton with 454 engines that had a similar problem (surging and stalling, and back firing) and after replacing the fuel pump, wires, plugs, cap, rotor, etc, etc, the anti-siphon was the cause of the problem. I took it out and pushed down on the steel ball while spraying carb cleaner in it and some debris came out. Put back in and never had the problem again.