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AQ225D/280 Transmission shifting

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PatinIdaho

Regular Contributor
I might have a problem but im unsure.
Shifting into forward is smooth at glass and i can hardly tell when it is engaged.
Reverse is another story.
When shifting into reverse it makes a clunk but seems to work fine. Shifting out of reverse it is harder then shifting out of forward. Kinda like something is dragging inside the transmission. Shift shoe installed wrong?
Prop turns left hand. I did install Ricardo's steel split ring keeper.
The cable is also slightly out of adjustment but i don't think that would matter? It engages just before the throttle picks up in forward and in reverse disengages just before neutral on the throttle.
Thanks guys;)
 
PatinIdaho said:
I might have a problem but im unsure.
Shifting into forward is smooth at glass and i can hardly tell when it is engaged.
Very normal with the cone clutch gear engagement.

Reverse is another story.
When shifting into reverse it makes a clunk but seems to work fine.
The clunk is from the reverse drive thrust taking up the slack between the latch hooks and the set pin.
Some is normal... excessive would not be.
Make sure that your idle speed is correct.

Shifting out of reverse it is harder then shifting out of forward. Kinda like something is dragging inside the transmission. Shift shoe installed wrong?
The shift shoe cannot be installed incorrectly. It would not allow the mechanism to bolt up flush with the main case.

Prop turns left hand.
LH prop drives from the lower driven gear.
Minus the vertical linkage piece swapping sides........, there is no change to any other linkage or cable.


I did install Ricardo's steel split ring keeper.
Ah..... I remember that!

The cable is also slightly out of adjustment but i don't think that would matter? It engages just before the throttle picks up in forward and in reverse disengages just before neutral on the throttle.
When it comes to the shift cable adjustment, I always begin with the eccentric piston in neutral.
I divide any cable over-travel equally so that the gear yoke does not bottom out in either direction.
(adjust the vertical linkage clevis accordingly)
From there, I work forward adjusting all else that that the pins only drop into place when in absolute neutral.

Click to expand...

A common problem for a rough shift into reverse, would be the lock brace.
The lock brace can become stiff due to corrosion, causing more force needed against the coupling rod.
 
Well, factory specs call .020 the limit and you have Rick's steel plate, it shouldn't get any worse but it is on the big side.
 
Yeah it is at the upper limit.
I think just for safety sake i should replace the nut with a thicker one. I would think being at .018 i could just order the thickest one and all should be good? It was on the bench when i measured it so might be a little more now. Thinking about it maybe the steel split ring keeper will seat in a few thousandths making that measurement at or above .020
I think i can just take the top cap off put it in gear and change it by blocking the prop?
 
PatinIdaho said:
Yeah it is at the upper limit.
I think just for safety sake i should replace the nut with a thicker one. I would think being at .018 i could just order the thickest one and all should be good? It was on the bench when i measured it so might be a little more now. Thinking about it maybe the steel split ring keeper will seat in a few thousandths making that measurement at or above .020
I think i can just take the top cap off put it in gear and change it by blocking the prop?
Click to expand...

At .020" you are fat but just barely acceptable.

To close this down some, you can also pry the bronze washer from the steel portion, and add circular shim stock between the two.


Remember that the top not is a left-hand thread.



.
 
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Hmmmmm. I don't remember a bronze washer on it but that was months ago so maybe im just forgetting.
This weekend i'll take it apart, get a good measurement and bring to down to the minimum gap. Probably the best thing to do.
Would that gap being to wide cause what i describe?
 
Yes it will. On the factory upper nut you can pry the brass off and take material off the center steel that the brass goes over. This will reduce the gap. Take as little as possible off, if you go too far than you have to start taking the brass off. Was taught this trick when my boss was taking care of the Western Engine (Volvo Penta) racing drives over 30 years ago. I don't think we ever bought the different size nuts, hell I don't think they had a different size nut back then.
The brass piece just snaps back on. Just lay it flat on a solid surface and tap the iron part back through it. You'll hear it snap back on.
 
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Problem is taking the steel off the nut for me. Be easier for me to add a shim or two but i seem to be having trouble finding a shim assortment for under $25+ Shipping. Could buy all 3 nuts for that with shipping.
 
PatinIdaho said:
Problem is taking the steel off the nut for me. Be easier for me to add a shim or two but i seem to be having trouble finding a shim assortment for under $25+ Shipping. Could buy all 3 nuts for that with shipping.
Click to expand...

I'll look this up tomorrow, but I'm thinking that the specs are .011" minimum and .022" max.
If the clearance is .020", you'll want to bring it tighter by adding to the thickness of the top nut.
Therefor you'd be adding material between the bronze washer and steel portion....... not removing material from the steel nut!!!!!

The shim stock does not need to be perfectly washer shaped or round.
You can cut .005" material with a good tin snips or heavy duty sizzors.

Conversely, if the gap was too tight, you'd simply dress down the bronze portion!


.
 
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Hold the nut on it's side and take a putty knife or gasket scraper and put it right at the junction of the brass and steel. Tap on the tool and the brass will separate. Now on to the steel part, on the inside portion of the steel where the brass was is a lip. This lip is what hits first, the brass does not. If you take steel off this area you are NOT hurting a thing, you are lowering the nut on the shaft which in turn tightens the gap. As I said earlier, back in the day this was SOP to tighten the gap up, even taught at Volvo Penta school. I have done it on 100's and 100's of drives over 35 years and still do it to this day. I have never had one fail and have had over 1000hp in front of 280 drives back in the racing days. I even recall an early service book that showed this procedure. Do it whatever way you want but buying more nuts is not needed. Did you all know that the hard steel replacement part that is held by the clips is also available from Volvo and has been for years and years, just no one knew it but the racing guys. I could also show people some woop te do things to do for the lowers to make them handle HP but aren't in the book. The clearance between brass and bearing is .004 to .020
 
WHOA! There big fella its all good!
I and I assume Ricardo thought the same thing. Take it off where the brass sits on the flat part of the nut! Not the sleeve part.
I'm going to take the top off tonight and get a proper measurement.
Then we will know better what needs done
 
I didn't mean to get any one's dander up but there are always more ways to skin a cat than how the book say's to. I throw a top water bait, my buddy throws a Texas rig worm, we still catch the same amount of bass.
 
That's the problem with the internet. Hard to tell sometimes. Sounded more like we ruffeled yours.
Anyways I'll post some numbers here in about 3 hours.
 
Ok so good news/bad news.
Bad first. I could get a .024 feeler gauge in there
Good news is a could not get a .026 feeler gauge in there.
Sooo decision time. 1 Sand down the sleeve on the nut, 2 Make a shim, 3 Buy a new nut.

So does that sleeve on the nut bottom out on the shaft allowing the brass part to kinda float?

If i just shim it what thickness would be best?

Looking at the new nuts it's kinda hard to figure out what one to get. Could either of you tell me?

Fixing this little problem would it be best to adjust to gap to .004?

So many questions for what seems a small problem:confused:

Thanks again guys. Your help is appreciated soooooooooo much:D
 
Ya, I get a little flusterrated when people ask for help and say no I'll do it this way. Why did you ask in the first place then, is my normal answer. I have never used shim stock in this area, not that it wouldn't work but just not how I was taught. No the brass just acts as a buffer it doesn't touch the bearing so to speak. It's not really a sleeve but a machined lip on the steel piece. I have done it so many times that I just use the side of the fine grinding wheel. I'm not talking grind the whole friggin thing off, just a little bit and put the two back together and measure it. Repeat the process if need be. If you do have a woops, just as Rick said sand the brass down once together to get your .004 or close to it. Now do all this sanding and grinding as flat as possible. I use a sheet of sand paper on a plexiglass sheet. Make sure you clean the pieces before putting together and measuring.You can do the same with the steel piece if you don't trust yourself on the grinding wheel. It's a very simple proven method of lowering your gap.
Rick and I are on here to help, sometimes we just get there down a different path. Both paths lead to the same spot.
 
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Fasten your seat belts....... this is a long winded one! :D


.
boatdoc55 said:
Hold the nut on it's side and take a putty knife or gasket scraper and put it right at the junction of the brass and steel. Tap on the tool and the brass will separate.
Yes!
Click to expand...
boatdoc55 said:
Now on to the steel part, on the inside portion of the steel where the brass was is a lip. This lip is what hits first, the brass does not.
Try pulling down on the vertical shaft, and you'll see that the gap does close as the bronze washer contacts the driven gear surface.

If you take steel off this area you are NOT hurting a thing, you are lowering the nut on the shaft which in turn tightens the gap.
I also agree!

Understand that the steel nut's "lip" does not contact the driven gear, nor the angular contact bearing.
The steel portion of the nut's "lip" is not intended to make contact with the driven gear.
(the diameter of this portion is smaller than the ID of the driven gear)

The early steel nuts measure approximately .994" at the "lip" that protrudes through and holds the bronze washer in place.
Allowing for the needle bearing cage, the ID of the driven gear is approximately 1.185" (this is not an accurate measurement).


The bronze washer portion does indeed touch the driven gear when the vertical shaft is being pulled downwards.

The bronze portion (against the nut flange) is what contacts the driven gear, and therefor it controls the gap or up/down play.
If you were to dress down the bronze portion, you will have effectively increased the gap or up/down play.

Conversely, if you were to spread the bronze portion from the steel nut and add a shim, you will have effectively decreased the gap or up/down play.
(see **example below)

I've been there and have done this many times, and with success each time...... and I am very anal when it comes to this.


Do it whatever way you want but buying more nuts is not needed.
I agree!


Did you all know that the hard steel replacement part that is held by the clips is also available from Volvo and has been for years and years, just no one knew it but the racing guys.

The early 250, 270, 280, 275 and all pre-A transmissions used the brass split ring keepers.
This shaft is smaller than the later shafts that began to use the all steel split ring keeper..... (I.E., the A and later transmissions)
IOW, the two split ring keepers will not interchange.
This is why I had the stress proof steel keepers custom made in lieu of using the "prone-to-failure" brass keepers.


The clearance between brass and bearing is .004 to .020
Gary, you may be right.... I was thinking .011" to .022"
Click to expand...


boatdoc55 said:
I didn't mean to get any one's dander up but there are always more ways to skin a cat than how the book say's to.
Click to expand...
 Gary, I'm good with the conversation... no dander up!

Where I would disagree, is that not all advice renders the same end results.

My Dad used to say......... "the furrier dealer will tell you that some cat skinners will sell him a better pelt."
So in essence, not all cats are skinned in the same way. :)

PatinIdaho said:
That's the problem with the internet. Hard to tell sometimes. Sounded more like we ruffeled yours.
Click to expand...
 Pat, Gary and I are not having a heated argument..... this is a gentlemanly discussion only.
I think that I can speak for Gary in that we both respect each other's opinions.


PatinIdaho said:
Ok so good news/bad news.
Bad first. I could get a .024 feeler gauge in there
Good news is a could not get a .026 feeler gauge in there.
Sooo decision time. 1 Sand down the sleeve on the nut, 2 Make a shim, 3 Buy a new nut.
Try making a shim for between the steel nut and the bronze washer.
Trust me.... it will work!

So does that sleeve on the nut bottom out on the shaft allowing the brass part to kinda float?
Click to expand...

Well, sort of!
When the pressure is off, the bronze portion is relaxed, so to speak.
** Example:
When running a LH prop, or a Duo Prop lower unit, the vertical shaft undergoes an upward force, placing the load against the split ring keeper.
Whereas when running a RH prop, the vertical shaft undergoes a downward force, placing the load on the top nut via the bronze washer.

If i just shim it what thickness would be best?
If you now have .026" clearance, cut your shim out of either .014", .016" or .018" material.
14 from 26 = 12
16 from 26 = 10
18 from 26 = 8
and so on.


Looking at the new nuts it's kinda hard to figure out what one to get. Could either of you tell me?
These come in #0, #1, #2, #3 and #4.... possible a #5...... and quite honestly I don't know what the thickness is for each.

Fixing this little problem would it be best to adjust to gap to .004?
Again, I don't recall .004" being the minimum. I'm thinking that .011" was minimum....... perhaps Gary can confirm.



boatdoc55 said:
Ya, I get a little flusterrated when people ask for help and say no I'll do it this way. Why did you ask in the first place then, is my normal answer. I have never used shim stock in this area, not that it wouldn't work but just not how I was taught.
Sometimes we need to think "out of the box", so to speak. :)

No the brass just acts as a buffer it doesn't touch the bearing so to speak.
Correct.... it does not touch the bearing.... it touches the driven gear and that's how it controls the up/down clearance.

Gary, I understand your take on the top nut and it's relationship to the threaded portion of the vertical shaft.
And you are correct... the steel nut does bottom out on the vertical shaft threads when fully tightened.



It's not really a sleeve but a machined lip on the steel piece.
Correct!

I have done it so many times that I just use the side of the fine grinding wheel. I'm not talking grind the whole friggin thing off, just a little bit and put the two back together and measure it. Repeat the process if need be. If you do have a woops, just as Rick said sand the brass down once together to get your .004 or close to it. Now do all this sanding and grinding as flat as possible.
Best to turn or spin the part when removing material. Better yet, do this on a lathe.
Click to expand...


 
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Guys, I had trouble with the HTML codes when posting that.
I could not keep the quote codes where they needed to be.

I'm in brown font throughout the post.

.
 
As far as prop rotation, I always assume, and I shouldn't, that we are spinning LH. This is where I say the top brass has no thrust on it, except in reverse and let's hope we're not spinning 4800 RPM in reverse.
Rick, You're about 1K times more technical than I and that shows in our post's, I've always been a get it done guy, as in flat-rater, but was taught the by the King of AQ Volvo Penta"s Harry Ingram in SoCal and I can honestly say much of my, his work was done by feel and touch.
 
Well both sound like viable solutions.
So I'm going to try to find some suitable shim material.
If I can't find that I'll sand down the nut. I'll let you know this weekend how the shifting is after fixing the gap.
 
.....................
boatdoc55 said:
As far as prop rotation, I always assume, and I shouldn't, that we are spinning LH.
I do the same, Gary.
With a single engine boat, a LH prop is much more common.


This is where I say the top brass has no thrust on it,
And I agree with you.
However, the gap or space between the driven gear and the bronze washer is still what we are concerned with.

except in reverse and let's hope we're not spinning 4800 RPM in reverse.
Yikes! :eek:

Rick, You're about 1K times more technical than I and that shows in our post's,
Sheesh Gary..... is that a virtue or is that a plague? ;)

.......... and I can honestly say much of my, his work was done by feel and touch.
Now Gary....... that's to be reserved for your wife or girlfriend. ;) :eek:
Click to expand...



PatinIdaho said:
Well both sound like viable solutions.
So I'm going to try to find some suitable shim material.
Pat, if you have a 4WD or Off Road center near you, check with them to see if they have an array of differential unit pinion gear shims in stock.
Some of these shims are close enough in diameter, and will come in an array of thickness, to work perfectly for what you'll be doing.

Been there/done that..... and like I said..... it does work!
Click to expand...
 
Ok took it to the Machine shop guys at work and told them i either need a .020 shim OR .020 taken off the inside sleeve part. Went back at quitting time and they had me all fixed up!
So back together and I will let ya know tomorrow after noon or Saturday how its working.
 
Pat, that is great to hear that the boys at the machine shop got you all fixed up! :D
And I'm happy to hear that this was done on a lathe.

Good work!


.
 
Well today at the lake the shifting was a lot smother with no big clunk...... Now just a lil clunk. Book says .004 to .020 so i took it down to .004.
I can tell now the clunk is just the reverse locks catching.
I also ordered new cables. The ones on it are 36 years old im sure!

When i replace the 2 cables there are only 4 things left i can do! I have replaced SOOOO much with your guy's help. THANKS!!!

New Drive shaft bellows.
New exhaust bellows.
New U-Joints.
Complete reseal with Pressure/ Vacuum test. NO LEAKS!!!
New steering cable
New Gauges/Switches
New Ignition switch
New Starter
New Tilt motor
New tilt relays
New exhaust gaskets.
New Carburetor
New Spark plugs/Wires
New Electronic ignition
New Alternator. 65Amp
New Battery isolator for charging up to 3 batteries.
New Exhaust coupler hoses.
New Thermostat.
New Fuel/Water separator Filter
New Bilge blower
New Bilge auto float switch
New Trim Tabs.
 
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