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Chrysler crank pump drive drawings 318 to 440

510mopar

Contributing Member
Hello Everyone. I have had a few want a drive hub but I have been either swamped in my consulting business or just plain boating and fishing. So I have made the following file so anyone can make it. If I have missed something or you have any questions just email me.
well it turns out I am having trouble getting this file to upload. So if someone is good with this site email me so I can send the file and maybe they can upload it for us.
 
Hello All this is from Dan (510mopar)
I have had a few members email me about the pump drive that I came up with to direct drive a Sherwood P105 direct from the crank. I have made the following file so that anyone can take the drawings to any machine shop to have it made. To install it follow these instructions and look at the pictures and you should be good to go.
First remove the original pulleys and spacers then remove the front mount bolt. It will be a 1 1/4" socket. Now use a caliper to measure the distance from the front face of the harmonic balancer where the big washer behind the bolt seats to the end of the crank shaft. You need to have .200".
There is a big variance between years and cranks so you may be OK and you may not. If not remove the harmonic balancer, push a shop rag around the crank to stop dirt from getting into the engine then use a small angle grinder to take some material off the end of the crank. There is a long chamfer on the end so removing some material has no effect on anything. Just make sure you end up with at least .200 as this is what centers the drive hub. While you have it off you might as well check to see how soft the seal is and if there is a deep groove in the balancer hub. This would be a good time to press on a Felpro seal sleeve on to get rid of the groove. The Auto Zone timing cover set with the seal sleeve is about $20.
Now once the balancer is replaced by pulling it in with a long bolt and spacer NOT A HAMMER. If there are hammer marks on the face of the balancer where the hub goes on, the hub will not spin true. Put the hammer down and back away from it.
Re-install the pulleys and then the hub, making sure the small pin goes into the key slot on the balancer, and then tighten the bolt.
Done. Make sure that the head of the bolt does not bottom out on the inside of the pump, if so just remove a bit from the end of the bolt. I have never had one touch but you never know as bolts vary.
Hope this helps.
Dan
Balancer with spacer.jpgBallancer spacer and pulley.jpgBallancer.jpgFront top view.jpgParts laid out.jpgPump drive installed.jpg
 
Thanks for the drawings, any chance of them in higher resolution? Hard to read. What is "making sure the small pin goes into the key slot on the balancer", I don't see the pin.
 
Hi I have posted the drawings one at a time for some reason it will not let me do more. The question about the pin is shown on mount 1. This pin sticks out and goes into the slot on the ballancer that the keyway slides into. This stops the drive hub from rotating when locked down.
 
Got 'em, very nice and clear. Thanks again. Looks like the Sherwood P105 flange matches the Johnson F6B-9 that I have.
 
Got 'em, very nice and clear. Thanks again. Looks like the Sherwood P105 flange matches the Johnson F6B-9 that I have.

Correct!
The Sherwood P105, Johnson F5B-9 and F6B-9, and the old Jabsco crankshaft pump all share the same mounting flange dimensions.

I don't recall if this has been addressed, but the pump's flange indexing and/or alignment is done via what would be considered the raised dowels.
With the GM engines, there will be two raised areas at the front pulley. These raised areas serve as indexing/alignment dowels for the flange.
The 3 bolts simply attach the flange to the Harmonic Balancer, or in the case of the Chrysler engine, this would be the adapter.
 

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Look at the drawing. The raised section on the center of the hub fits into the recess on the P105. This centers it perfectly and actually much more accurately then the pressed tin used on Chev engines. With a dial indicator on the pump flange runout is less than .002 in most cases, as long as the face of the ballancer is not distorted by hammer marks. I have never measured any other pump as as I designed it for the P105.
 
Look at the drawing. The raised section on the center of the hub fits into the recess on the P105. This centers it perfectly and actually much more accurately then the pressed tin used on Chev engines. With a dial indicator on the pump flange runout is less than .002 in most cases, as long as the face of the ballancer is not distorted by hammer marks. I have never measured any other pump as as I designed it for the P105.

I fully understand what you've done as to ensure the Sherwood P105 pump flange centering.
However, I'm not convinced that the ID of the mounting flange would be consistant from pump to pump, since the original design was to incorporate the use the raised dowels and dowel alignment holes.
The center bore ID was likely for clearance only.
If the bore's ID is consistant between pump flanges, then you did well.

Now.... what do we do if a person wants to use the Johnson F5B-9 or F6B-9 in lieu of the Sherwood P105?
Are these ID's all consistant?
I don't know.
Just say'n!

Don't get me wrong here.... I like what you've done and I like your design.
Going from a belt driven seawater pump to the crankshaft pump is a real plus, IMO.
If you'll recall, I was the person who suggested this several years back.



.
 
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I have used P105 on this mount for about 9 or 10 years and they all have the same inside bore, so far. I purchased 3 new ones last fall and were all the same. If for some reason they change then the dimensions just change to match. The center bore is a much more accurate centering. In the even another pump is to be used just take the pump to your machine shop and have the machinist measure and adjust the mounting surface to match, the rest that mates with the engine remains constant. As in any adapter, it's adaptable. The key thing is to make sure that any hammer marks on the ballancer are removed. In the event you have it off take it to the machinist to chuck into the lathe and just take a few thousands off the face to true it up just in case. Once mounted I use a dial indicator to check the runout and it is rare it is over a few thousands. I have seen pumps on the Chev engines shimmy like a hula dancer, just hard on the front pump bearings when they shimmy.
enjoy the water
Dan
 
................
I have used P105 on this mount for about 9 or 10 years and they all have the same inside bore, so far. I purchased 3 new ones last fall and were all the same.
That's good to know.


If for some reason they change then the dimensions just change to match. The center bore is a much more accurate centering.
I agree with you. Much better than the dowels.

In the event another pump is to be used just take the pump to your machine shop and have the machinist measure and adjust the mounting surface to match, the rest that mates with the engine remains constant. As in any adapter, it's adaptable.
Yep!

I have seen pumps on the Chev engines shimmy like a hula dancer,
I have also.
 
I have gone ahead and had an adapter made up. My engine did not come with a raw water pump, It was delivered to be supplied by the outdrive's pump, not adequate for a full closed system. The crankshaft option with the Johnson pump is slightly less expensive than rounding up a belt driven setup.

Center bore between the Johnson and the Sherwood is identical. The three mounting holes are differing in size, Sherwood 10.31mm vs. F6B-9 at 13mm. My flange is thus drilled and tapped at 1/2 inch 20 threads. My flange is 1/2 inch thick. My machinist opted to make it one piece. It is almost two inches shorter, as I do not require but one belt for the circ. pump and alt..

I've been puzzling about how to do this for quite awhile and thank you Dan for sharing.Raw Water Adapter1a.jpg
 
Great news, I am very glad to see the posted helped some one out. Since other members may have the same pump can you post some form of drawing or sketch with dimensions? Perhaps we can add it to the other drawings and if there is a way to archive the post for future reference it could help others out down the road.
Once mounted can you post some pics? Was the drawing I did OK for your machinist and did you get the small pin put in to lock into the key slot?
Thanks
Dan
 
Thanks for sending me the original sketches for these a while back, a friend of mine is making them for me as we speak, I too went one piece, and shorter as I'm only running 1 belt in my application.
 
Great. Post a few pics of the final assembly. Mine are longer as I use 4 belts on all my engines, dual belts for each accessory as it gives redundancy if one fails. That is why I made the nose longer, but it's great that you just make it as you need it.
 
I am only running an alternator and the engine mounted water pump for my closed cooling setup, I will obviously keep a spare belt on board, but don't expect any problems with that. My next project is some water jacketed stainless risers for the exhaust that will bolt to the center rise Chrysler exhaust manifolds with the provisions for an O2 sensor.
 
Call manifold warehouse in BC Canada, Talk to Peter. They may have or be able to make what you want. I know they have a section for the GM manifolds that takes the O2 sensor. The other way is to tap off the exhaust cross over on the intake manifold with a 3/8 NPT and put in a Tee. Tap one side of the tee with the metric O2 sensor thread then run a 3/8 SS tube from the other side and tap into the exhaust downstream of the riser. The exhaust will pass through the t and the O2 sensor and it works like a charm, done it several times when we do not want to modify the existing system short of fuel injection. Wrap the SS tube with hi temp wrap and plug it in. If I have time this weekend I can send a few pics of the one in the shop I am working on right now for a 1969 440 Magnum with MPI injection using the factory '69 manifold.
Cheers
 
Center bore between the Johnson and the Sherwood is identical.

My machinist opted to make it one piece. It is almost two inches shorter, as I do not require but one belt for the circ. pump and alt..

View attachment 11518

Good to know that the center bore is the same between the Sherwood and Johnson. I had questioned that earlier.


And I like your idea of shortening the adapter bringing the pump closer in towards the front of the crankshaft.
If space is limited, this will certainly help.




FYI for anyone using the Johnson F6B-9 crankshaft pump.

The F6B-9 is the larger volume of the two (F6B-9 vs F5B-9).
The older Jabsco larger volume pump impeller looks almost identical to the Johnson F6B-9 impeller.
Same splines, same vane count, same diameter, etc....... but the Jabsco impeller is 1.990" in depth, whereas the Johnson F6B-9 impeller is only 1.900" in depth.
Parts people will occasionally grab the Jabsco impeller for a F6 installation or visa-versa.

Point being... watch out for that .090" difference.


The Sherwood P-105 impeller is keyed... so there's little chance of a mistake there.



I'm glad to see that some of you Chrysler guys going to the Crankshaft seawater pump...... you won't regret it!


.
 
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Call manifold warehouse in BC Canada, Talk to Peter. They may have or be able to make what you want. I know they have a section for the GM manifolds that takes the O2 sensor. The other way is to tap off the exhaust cross over on the intake manifold with a 3/8 NPT and put in a Tee. Tap one side of the tee with the metric O2 sensor thread then run a 3/8 SS tube from the other side and tap into the exhaust downstream of the riser. The exhaust will pass through the t and the O2 sensor and it works like a charm, done it several times when we do not want to modify the existing system short of fuel injection. Wrap the SS tube with hi temp wrap and plug it in. If I have time this weekend I can send a few pics of the one in the shop I am working on right now for a 1969 440 Magnum with MPI injection using the factory '69 manifold.
Cheers

Im going to run Magnum based motors, so no crossover in the head, bit that is a great idea.
 
What injection program are you going to run? Or what injection platform?
O2 sensors are only used for very fine trim of A/F ratio's and the base program takes care of the actual ratio. If you were to take a 1993 Gen 1 computer driven Magnum engine and disconnect the O2 sensor it will run just fine, but just slightly rich. The slight increase to the rich side is what you want in a marine engine anyway. If you run one of the Megasquirt systems you can actually set it up to run without an O2 sensor.
I use the 1994 Dodge 360 Magnum computers to make my injection systems as it has a great base program and run with or without an O2 sensor. Since most marine engines run under a heavier load, especially small blocks, the O2 trim is removed by the computer in favor of the base program load curve. The O2 is really only used during idle and up to about 1500 RPM anyway.
Just curious as to what program you are going to run.
 
What injection program are you going to run? Or what injection platform?
O2 sensors are only used for very fine trim of A/F ratio's and the base program takes care of the actual ratio. If you were to take a 1993 Gen 1 computer driven Magnum engine and disconnect the O2 sensor it will run just fine, but just slightly rich. The slight increase to the rich side is what you want in a marine engine anyway. If you run one of the Megasquirt systems you can actually set it up to run without an O2 sensor.
I use the 1994 Dodge 360 Magnum computers to make my injection systems as it has a great base program and run with or without an O2 sensor. Since most marine engines run under a heavier load, especially small blocks, the O2 trim is removed by the computer in favor of the base program load curve. The O2 is really only used during idle and up to about 1500 RPM anyway.
Just curious as to what program you are going to run.

I was actually considering a FAST unit that replaces a 4 bbl carb. Now you have me thinking OEM. Sounds very interesting, not to mention easier on the wallet. I could even run the Hughes intake manifold and still be way cheaper than the FAST setup.
 
If you are using a Magnum 318 or 360 just use the original intake, they are awesome at low end for power over a regular intake. Get a wiring harness from a 1992 or 1993 dodge truck and a 1994 or 1995 360 truck computer. I can tell you what wires are not needed from the computer to make up a harness, only takes a few rum's and it is plug and play. I use 360 injectors in the 318 to add a touch more fuel. I have built 440's with that computer and it works great with 27 lb injectors. Chrysler engineers put a ton of work into that Magnum engine and fuel injection before it hit the Market.
I have friends who have used the FAST system on engines in air boats but the problem with throttle body injection is idle and slow speed puddling of fuel in the intake runners. Now think of how much idling and channel cruising we do, that is why I no longer use throttle body injection. It works great when cruising but loads up at slow RPM's. Dodge only used throttle body injection from later 1988 to late 1990.
I have used throttle body injection on 318, 400 and 440 and found they are OK while cruising but gradually move to rich under idle.
Just my experience.
I use 454 cooling tanks and make some inlet and outlet changes to reduce hoses and adapters. heres a pic.
Dan440 Mag front seawater pump.jpg440 Mag front SeaRay.jpg
 
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