2004 BF200 Surging/ Fuel Issues-Advice Needed

Hello, everybody. I first want to thank those who contribute to this forum. It have scoured it for advice and found it very helpful.

I have a 2004 BF200 on a 20' Robalo center console. It has been a good engine overall but all but started running poorly at the end of last summer. While riding at cruising speed, 3400-3600 rpm, the boat will start to surge and lose power as if it's not getting fuel. It will pretty much always come back down and idle, but once it starts acting up, it will do it more and more frequently. Here are the things I've tried to fix this problem:

1. I noticed that there was a significant amount of water in the water separator cartridge. Fixing a loose leaning post, I cut an access hatch under the leaning post and discovered 3" of rain water sitting on top of the fuel tank. I thought water was getting in the tank and causing the problem. I figured out the reason for this and also determined that the foam around the tank was water-logged, so I replaced the fuel tank over the winter.
2. I replaced all fuel line coming back to the water separator, and put a new Honda OEM fuel bulb assembly between the separator and the engine.
3. I removed the bearing from the anti siphon valve just in case.
4. This past week I took it to a repair shop and had them replace the low and high pressure fuel filters and clean the VST. It ran well for about a day and a half, but acted up again shortly after picking up my wife and two young daughters.

I live in Savannah, GA. The guy who did my filters and VST seems like a sharp guy, but he is not Honda certified and can not pull error codes. I idled it back to him after dropping the family off yesterday but now I'm having second thoughts. I cannot find a good Honda certified mechanic in my area, I have had a bad experience with the only one in my city area.

Does anybody have any advice on what I should do or know a good mechanic in the area? I just the boat to be reliable so I can get my kids out on the water without having it break down.

Thanks in advance for your advice.

Hi Randy,

I had a fuel problem today so that's why I'm here. I'm trying to figure it out myself but if I can't I use Coastal Boating Center on Ogeechee Rd. They're certified and I've been happy with the work they did for me. There's another certified shop on Skidaway Rd. but I don't know anything about them. The only issue I've had with Coastal Boating Center is that repairs take a while but that could have been because of my particular older engine or their workload. If I can't fix it and take it to them this week I'm not expecting to be on the water next weekend. Gook luck!

It sounds like you still have water in your fuel. Did you drain the tank? If not, you should. Then drain the entire fuel system including the VST, then fill with new fresh non-ethanol gas.

Jv, I spent $700 with Coastal last summer and they said they pumped the tank out and did some other stuff but didn't fix the problem.

chawk,
i don't think it's water in the tank at this point, I replaced the tank completely. The first time it acted up afterwards, the first thing I did was check the separator and the fuel looked good. I should have also mentioned that the best the engine would do when it was running well was about 4800-5000 rpm. I don't really care about going that fast, but I feel like that's an indicator that something isn't right.

Are these symptoms the sign of a Abadan O2 sensor? Or the IAC (?) valve? Is it something that would throw a code and should I have it checked by a honda certified mechanic so they could check it?

Adam's Boats Shop on E. 39th is the other certified shop on Honda.com. I'm running a bf25a so it's a different situation but with Coastal's turnaround time I'm looking for other options too.

Randy,

OK, let's start from the top. First of all, WOT on that engine should be at least 5800 RPM, +/- 200. So it was not performing correctly previously. That could be a prop issue. But at this point, you need to get the engine running properly as the first order of business.

A failed HO2 sensor will not cause the problems you are describing. You'll just burn more fuel and get black marks around your exhaust outlets, and eventually foul your plugs.

When was the last time the plugs were changed? These engines do not like fouled plugs at all. And the only plugs I recommend are the NGK IZFR6F11. Even if the plugs have been recently changed, pull them and inspect for fouling and black soot. Note which cylinder each plug came out of.

When the engine stalls out, what lights are coming on the key switch console and what alarm is going off - constant, long beeps, or short beeps?

When you were replacing the fuel lines, did you also replace the filter in the external fuel/water separator? If not, I would do that right away because that filter is likely contaminated from the water that was in the old fuel system.

When the engine is stalling, did you try to squeeze the pump up bulb several times to see if it picked back up? If so, that is a sign that your low pressure fuel pump could be failing.

IF you have the four light key switch console, you can pull fault codes from the ECM. It's been described many times on this forum, but send me an e-mail at [email protected], and I will send you the procedure and the codes.

CHawk,

Thank you for the reply. I sent an email requesting the information you offered. Thank you.

For everybody else's benefit who may be referring to this thread:

I am not sure of the last time the spark plugs were changed, but I will definitely look at them. No alarm goes off when it starts acting up, and I'm not sure of any light patterns on the ignition switch, I will look next time I get to the boat.

I did replace the cartridge in the water separator, it is less than a month old and has only been in use since the new tank was hooked up. It should be good to go.

I've often brought the engine back down to idle when it's acting up and checked the bulb, it usually has a little slack in it, and you can feel it picking up fuel right off.

One other thing I should mention is that the boat has a Garmin in line fuel flow meter. I've noticed that about 30 seconds before the engine acts up, the fuel flow will go from a reasonable number, about 7-9 gph, it will jump to a crazy number like 50-60 gph. I'm not sure how spot-on accurate that thing is, but when the engine is running right, it gives reasonable info, 3-3.6 mpg, reasonable gph fuel flow...

Thanks again!

Randy,

Just replied to your e-mail.

If no alarms are going off, you could still have problems with fouled plugs and/or a bad HO2 sensor, but again, the problems you describe do not seem to lead to the HO2 sensor.

The Garmin fuel flow meter could be the problem, or it could be just reacting to a fuel flow problem such as sucking air in the fuel line. The first thing I would do is bypass it and see if that fixes the stalling out. If not, then closely inspect all connections between the flow meter and the fuel pickup in the tank.

Here is my standard caveat: I am not a trained Honda tech, just an owner who took a deep interest in my first, very expensive, four-stroke outboard. After 1660 hours on the engine, I know the old girl pretty well and she still runs like new.

Thanks again, CHawk.

you might be onto something there. My mechanic tinkered with it a little more today and ended up hooking up fuel pump with a clear tube to different spots in the fuel line. Before the water separator it was good. Hooking up behind it he saw a good bit of air coming in. It is a new cartridge, but the bracket is about 10 years old. He is going to check into it more tomorrow. The fuel flow meter is between the separator and the engine, so it would be subject to the incoming air and could be causing the crazy readings. I'm hopeful that's the problem with the surging. It still doesn't address the top end rpm, but we'll come back to that once it's running steady.

thanks again for the input, I'll keep y'all posted.

Sounds like you've honed in on the problem. Your mechanic did the right thing with the clear plastic hose. I've recommended that many times. The air in the fuel could also be the cause of your rpm issue. The air would tend to collect in your VST, lowering the fuel pressure.

Update. My mechanic cleaned the water separator bracket and ran new fuel line between it and the engine. I picked it up on Friday and it ran well for about an hour, then it blew the #3 10 amp fuse. I went through all the connections at the batteries and the battery switch, and figured it out after about 45 minutes. Ultimately, I need to run it more to feel good about it.

I'm going to post another thread about that to make it more searchable if somebody runs into the same problem. I'll keep this updated as well once I've had more time to run it.

So my brother took the boat fishing yesterday and it acted, doing the same thing with the surging at cruise speed, on the way back, after running well for a few hours. The last time I was putting it up and cleaning it, I noticed a good bit of black soot around the exhaust pots. I'm wondering if I have a bad O2 sensor causing it o burn through the fuel quickly, and then the fuel pickup is getting air in the system. Does this seem reasonable? Looking at the schematics on boats.net, i see one O2 sensor in the diagram. Does my engine have more than one O2 sensor?

Any other thoughts/suggestions?

thank you.

It has only one, have you been able to pull any codes?

I ordered a service connector and had it shipped straight to the mechanic's. I forgot to get it when I picked up the boat. It will be two weeks before I get a chance to pick it up...I plan to check for codes as soon as I can. I read in other threads that a bad O2 sensor can contribute to lower wot rpm, I max out at 4800-4900. That along with the soot and elevated fuel flow before it acts up makes me wonder about a bad sensor...seem feasible?

OK. As I described in my e-mail, you can use a paper clip instead of the Honda service connector (i.e. shunt.) If it started surging again, and your fuel meter went erratic, then I suspect that the problem with air in your fuel line is still there. This would be even more likely if you are not getting any alarms.

It would still be a good idea to check to see if you get a code 1 on you MIL light when you pull the codes. A Code 1 can be a bad HO2 sensor, but it could also indicate a bad plug or a bad coil.

CHawk,
thanks again. I went to the boat last night after my girls went to be and used a paper clip to pull the codes. I think it was showing a 1 and a 14. I actually emailed you a video of the codes. I've got the error code info you emailed me on my work computer and I was going to check the codes tomorrow. I think we're getting to the bottom of this and I really appreciate the help!

I just replied to your e-mail. The video definitely shows a code 1 and a code 14.

The code 14 is the IAC valve and I described how to test it IAW the Helm Shop Manual in the e-mail.

Hopefully some other folks who have dealt with that component will chirp in.

Thanks again, CHawk.

As far as I know, my engine has not been through the ECU update and so forth, but I think my setup is ok because it ran well for years. With this in mind, I want to confirm the right part number. I think I need a #12 on the attached page for the O2 sensor.

http://www.boats.net/parts/search/H...0A4 XA/EXHAUST MANIFOLD THERMOSTAT/parts.html

Can anybody confirm that?

Does anybody know where the IAC valve is located just In case?

Thanks.

I don't think there were any ECU updates for your 2004 engine.

Yes, that is the right part - 90074-ZY3-305. However, before buying a new HO2 sensor I would try to eliminate other issues that can throw a "1" code - plugs, coils, bad connection to HO2 sensor. Then clear codes, run engine, and pull any new codes. If you still get a "1" code and a "14" code, then test the IAC valve as described in my e-mail, change out the HO2 sensor, and change out the IAC valve if it fails the test. Clear codes, then see if you still get any codes.

I think I can rule out plugs, it got a new set a couple of weeks ago.

Here's my plan. I want to go ahead and get an O2 sensor this week and have it hand. My next chance to run the boat will be a week from Friday. I want to clear the codes and take the 30-minute ride by boat to the marina where my mechanic is. He actually has the service connector I ordered a few weeks ago. I'll check the codes again when I get there and see what it's telling me. I would plan to get him to help me replace the O2 sensor and if shows me a 14 again, inspect and test the IAC valve. After that has been sorted out, I'll clear the codes again and run it some more to see how she does. My thinking is that the 1 code along with the soot around the exhaust ports makes me think a bad sensor is very likely. Hopefully if the IAC valve is an issue, it can be cleaned restored to function.

the fact of the matter is, I have a 1 and a 3-year old. I don't have a lot of time to work on the boat, and they usually come a week or two in between. If I figure something out and then order a part, that means at least another week or two before it gets done, and then I have to test it out again after that. I want to get my family on the water sooner rather than later.

let me know what you think, and thanks again for your help.

Randy,

Sounds like a good plan. The only thing I would add is to check for air in the fuel line again using the clear plastic hose set up as your mechanic used before. I would also consider bypassing the Garmin fuel flow meter all together for the time being. If all works out well, and the engine runs as it should, then reconnect the fuel flow meter to make sure that is not the source of the problems.

Also, when it's all up and running correctly, you need to test to see what RPM's you are getting at WOT. I recall on your initial post that you were not getting anywhere near the needed 6000 +/- rpm. As I said previously, that could be a prop problem. So when the engine is behaving properly, we can go to work on the RPM issue.

William,
good advice on checking the system for air leaks. I will ask him to do that while I'm there. I'm pretty confident that the fuel flow meter is not the problem as I installed it after the problem as part of my means for figuring it out. I'm just hopeful that this O2 sensor is the cause of the surging. Either way, this error code situation needs to be figured out.

We'll address the wot rpm issue once we've got this figured out. Thanks again for your help!

BTW - the BF 200 and 225's have a built in flow meter which is very accurate. Unfortunately, you need the expensive digital gauges to get the readout. By accurate, I mean mine is always within +/- 2.5 gallons on a 100 gallon fill up.

Ok, went over to the boat today and cleared the codes. After that, I hooked the hose on the ear muffs to see if it would throw the codes again. I ran it for about ten minutes and it didn't register anything. However, I noticed that when I revved it up, about 2,000-2,500 rpm, the low pressure filter reservoir would run down to nearly empty and not fill up again until it was back to idle. Is this normal? Is that a sign of a bad fuel pump?

BTW, it did not throw any codes, but I've already bought a new O2 sensor to swap out. How long should it take to register if it is bad? Should I replace it anyway?

Thanks.

I can't find the low pressure fuel pump on boats.net. Does anybody know hich diagram/part number it is?

If you did not get a code "1" then I doubt that your current HO2 sensor is bad. Hang on to the new one, you will likely need it sometime in the future.

From the Helm shop manual diagnostics, it appears that low fuel pressure may also cause a code "1". As you go through the testing procedure for a code "1" it asks to check the fuel pressure on two different tests (page 5-26) so you could be experiencing that.

The fuel filter bowl should not be running that low, but before you replace the low pressure fuel pump, repeat what you did yesterday with the fuel fill-up cap loose and check the primer bulb to make sure it is not collapsed - you could have a clogged breather line on your fuel tank or a clogged pickup hose in your fuel tank. Another possibility is that you could have a air leak somewhere in your fuel line.

Thanks, CHawk.
My mechanic replaced the fuel pickup and all the fuel line going back to the engine. In this process, I've disconnected the vent tube and blown through it with the fuel cap off. There was no resistance so I believe that it is clear. I forgot to mention that I replaced the fuel water separator bracket over the weekend as well, and lubed the gasket on the filter with oil when I installed it, so I think I can say that has been eliminated as a likely air leak. With that having been done, everything from the fuel tank to the engine is new. I was leaning towards it being an air leak in the system also, but I guess at this point the most likely place would be inside the engine. I still haven't been able to find the low pressure fuel pump on boats.net. Thanks for letting me know that low fuel pressure could trigger a code 1, I guess that's what caused mine. I'm not sure what to do next except to keep looking for air leaks, but at this point I guess I would be looking under the cowl.

You want to eliminate all other possibilities until you have convinced yourself that it is one of your fuel pumps. That would also include checking the seal and connections at the onboard fuel/water separator and those around the onboard low pressure fuel filter.

Also check your high pressure fuel filter and the screen underneath it. Drain the VST.

At the top of the HP fuel filter there is a square bolt to allow you to relieve pressure on the fuel system. If you or your mechanic have a pressure gauge that will fit that, you can check fuel pressure there. I've never had to do this, so I don't know what the pressure spec is. Hopefully someone else will jump in on that issue.

I had new hp and lp filters installed, vst drained, and new screen underneath installed a few weeks ago. I will continue to check for air leaks. Thanks CHawk!

OOPS - the fuel pressure relief bolt is a hex head bolt, not square.