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Cracked 350 block 383 build to replace need input

So true Dockside and it allows us so much more time to discuss the issue at hand. I know that is how I want to spend my time!!! And thank you Admin for your attention in this. Now I must go and construct my next post on this. Will take me a bit but I am getting so close to having a plan nailed down. I cant wait to get started.
 
Ok guys sorry for the delay in posting. I had a bit more research to do and that darn work thing tends to get in the way!!! But alas I need to do it so I can complete this build.
Anyways after more exhaustive reading and research and much consideration here is what I have come up with in regards to Intake manifold, Ignition system, and camshaft selection.

KG you pointed out quite correctly that the stock cam is wimpy and likely not ideal for this build. I do tend to agree but I find myself still in a bit of indecision here. The camshaft I showed is more "powerful" than the specs I have found for the cam in my engine. You question the lift numbers as I did too when I saw them. Maybe a possible explanation is a result of the vortec head efficiency at low lift numbers? If you compare the lift/flow numbers in the stock 99 cam on vortec heads with the lift/flow numbers of a 93-97 cam with iron heads they are actually quite close on the intake side.


Intake Flow ComparisonExhaust Flow Comparison
Valve LiftGMPP
Fast Burn
GM
Vortec L31
GM
Stock
Iron 882
GMPP
Fast Burn
GM
Vortec L31
GM
Stock
Iron 882
0.050”304039232534
0.100”617070534858
0.200”126139125107101108
0.300”180190175140121135
0.400”221227204167140141
0.500”243239205178147142
0.600”238229206184151142
Note: Vortec L31 and Stock Iron 882 flow data where obtained from Car Craft Magazine’s Web site in their Technical Articles section. The Fast Burn (new version) flow data is Chevrolet’s data.

This is merely a thought.
That being said I do need more than a stock cam just how much is the question. The .480 lift is absolute max and most hotrodders won't even approach .460 without mods. That being said if I stay very moddest here simple mods are available so I can approach .480 without any concerns. Here is what has me torn. I agree more lift, more flow = more power. However I am seeking a line somewhere between and conservative. I want torque and efficiency at cruise speed. The cam I posted was one of 2 the comp cam tech suggested but I am reconsidering how little time he spent actually spent considering the details I was providing him with. So I guess in the end I will have to make a few other calls to other cam manufacturers and see what they come up with.

As for the ignition system, I am going to stay with the stock TB5 for now and see how it performs. All of the reading I have done I cannot seem to find an actual curve but I do see that when the system is functioning properly it is quite good at timing correctly for good torque. I know it is a mystery exactly how it is done and it seems to be a closely guarded secret but IMO it actually had the stock 350 making good power that was not way underpowered for this boat. In the end I see no reason that it wouldn't time a better built engine properly and its built in protections and adjustment for changing conditions is something that I would like to keep. I know I could manually time it properly with a fairly inexpensive ignition system but I would be losing the protections and on the fly adjustments it provides. I just can't see spending extra money to "go backwards" in technology when I have a system that was functioning properly. The way I see it is I will use it for the season and if I hate it it is not a big deal to change out.

As fpr the intake manifold. I have struggled here to but I think I may have found a solution. Given my normal use and conditions I have decided to go with a performer style manifold. This one http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chevy-SBC-3...Parts_Accessories&hash=item2ed5bb5010&vxp=mtr

I have thought long and hard and I found that Dart Coatings DC8 is available for protecting against corrosion and I am going to look into it more to see if I can get it done locally and how much it would cost. If not I will simply monitor corrosion in the thermostat area and that should be a good indicator of any corrosion issues . I know a bit of a gamble here but 1999 fuel injected mercruiser engines use ....aluminum intake manifolds!!! Go figure! not saying it is best way to do it just en example of it being done.
Other than the potential for corrosion does anyone see anything that would not make this Intake a good choice?

BTW I am going to heed the advice on the lifters and change them after ensuring they do indeed work well with the cam I end up selecting.

Again thank you guys for your help in developing my build plan. I am close to nailing it down and locking it in so please hit me with all of your input on anything we may have discussed or may have overlooked.
 
Edelbrock manifold free shipping!

http://www.jegs.com/i/Edelbrock/350/2116/10002/-1

Other choices for price but same manifold

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B00062Z2OQ/ref=dp_olp_new?ie=UTF8&condition=new

I just relooked at the cam..I must have been sent to a different page the first time....

The page I looked at today says lift is .458 and .458.

If this is so then I think this will be fine.

The cam I went to the first time by clicking your link said it was far less than that......That is why I responded the way I did.
 
.............................

Jeff, you're planning to stay with the 1.5:1 ratio rocker arms... correct?


1..... I want torque and efficiency at cruise speed.
2.....
The cam I posted was one of 2 the comp cam tech suggested but I am reconsidering how little time he spent actually considering the details I was providing him with.
3..... So I guess in the end I will have to make a few other calls to other cam manufacturers and see what they come up with.

1.... Yes... so true! Your 3.750" stroke will give you the torque that you're after and at the correct RPM range for a Marine Cruiser SBC, but only to it's MAX if you get the LPCP where it must be.
The Q/E (as well as the cam profile) will give you the efficiency that you're after.

2.... If you spoke with the right person who has SBC Marine Engine knowledge, he may have enough experience to allow him to make his suggestion quickly. Just a thought!

3.... Agree..... asking your question of several companies is certainly a great idea!


As for the ignition system, I am going to stay with the stock TB5 for now and see how it performs. All of the reading I have done I cannot seem to find an actual curve but I do see that when the system is functioning properly it is quite good at timing correctly for good torque. I know it is a mystery exactly how it is done and it seems to be a closely guarded secret but IMO it actually had the stock 350 making good power that was not way underpowered for this boat. In the end I see no reason that it wouldn't time a better built engine properly and its built in protections and adjustment for changing conditions is something that I would like to keep. I know I could manually time it properly with a fairly inexpensive ignition system but I would be losing the protections and on the fly adjustments it provides. I just can't see spending extra money to "go backwards" in technology when I have a system that was functioning properly. The way I see it is I will use it for the season and if I hate it it is not a big deal to change out.
Jeff, my two cents on this would be to NOT look at nor use any Automotive Ignition Advance information .... not that you would..... Just an FYI!

As suggested..... a typical Marine Engine ignition advance curve (for use with the SBC which uses the GM full dished pistons), is going to be rather conservative. It will be conservative due to the increased Detonation Potential that this piston creates (of which you won't need to be concerned with).
While being conservative, it will affect the LPCP.... and since you are already versed on that, I won't continue with any redundancy!



As for the intake manifold. I have struggled here to but I think I may have found a solution. Given my normal use and conditions I have decided to go with a performer style manifold. This one http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chevy-SBC-3...Parts_Accessories&hash=item2ed5bb5010&vxp=mtr

I have thought long and hard and I found that Dart Coatings DC8 is available for protecting against corrosion and I am going to look into it more to see if I can get it done locally and how much it would cost. If not I will simply monitor corrosion in the thermostat area and that should be a good indicator of any corrosion issues . I know a bit of a gamble here but 1999 fuel injected mercruiser engines use ....aluminum intake manifolds!!! Go figure! not saying it is best way to do it just en example of it being done.
Other than the potential for corrosion does anyone see anything that would not make this Intake a good choice?
Jeff, I fully understand the cost differences and the potential savings. If you keep a close eye on things, you may be OK with the manifold that you've shown. (I would have my suspcions that the Holeshot Vortec Intake Manifold is Chinese made)
Personally, I'd spend the extra money and go with the Edelbrock 2116 Performer Intake Manifold that Jack linked you to.
The Dual Plane is a great choice and will perform best for your Marine use.

Here's what Merc and other Marine Engine companies do to protect against galvanic corrosion when raw water cooled.
In this image, you can see that the coolant cross-over chamber is bronze lined.

DSCN2968-Big_250_124.jpg


If you were to turn this over, you'd see that the rear "would-be" cross-over areas are also bronze coated.

BTW I am going to heed the advice on the lifters and change them after ensuring they do indeed work well with the cam I end up selecting.
Jeff, I found an article by Jeff Smith in hopes of finding some information on the GM roller cam followers. I was hoping that he would comment on the roller diameter differences. I may be wrong in that all use the same diameter, which would mean that they are interchangeable.
http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/ccrp-0710-chevy-small-block/

BTW, Jeff does suggest that these can be used or re-used on a different roller profile camshaft.

(FWIW.... the GM roller cam followers will often go 200+K miles in a car/truck engine, and will still be OK for re-use.)



I am close to nailing it down and locking it in so please hit me with all of your input on anything we may have discussed or may have overlooked.
Jeff, one last suggestion here.
When the time comes to adjust your cam followers, I'll suggest that you use the 8 stop procedure... (not the 2 or 3 stop that is often mentioned in the OEM service manuals).
You will be ultimately be setting the depth of the cam follower plunger.... (not rockers nor valves that is so often talked about).
Each plunger will offer approximately .100" to .130" of travel. Our goal is to place the plunger within it's proprociate travel range below zero lash.

If you chose this method, do this prior to installing the intake manifold and prior to any oil priming (plungers are free to move when not hydraulically locked).
You'd begin by setting/adjusting the #1 cylinder Int/Exh while the crankshaft is at #1 TDC C/S.
The follower plunger retainer will be visible, and will allow you to see the moment when the plunger begins to move downward.

Next... you'll rotate the crankshaft 90 degrees, and set/adjust #8 Int/Exh.
You'll continue rotating 90 degrees while you go right down the firing order, stopping a total of 6 more times (8 total).

If you do this, you'll be right at the cam lobe base circle low point during the adjustment, and you will not need to go back through them dynamically later on!
Your call!



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Since you are spending your left nut on this engine, I would suggest that you employ a full closed cooling system, negating the need for the exotic coating on the intake mani. You'll also preserve your exhaust manifolds. if you pop for the stainless risers too, you'll have a pretty much saltwater-proof powerplant.
Also, don't cheap out on the new hoses. Buy the Shields stuff. Silicone if you can afford it.
 
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So far the plan hasn't cost me my left nut yet but we are getting close. I am strongly considering closed cooling and as I am sure you can tell I am wrestling with how far to go on marine protection given the fact that I am in fresh water and currently the boat is kept in the dry. I am putting protections in place but I have to weigh the benefits versus cost. Closed cooling is definitely tempting, do you have a good recommended system at a good price? I think the shields silicone is likely out of the budget though.
I still want to do this build and keep my body parts intact.
 
Unless you are going to run it in salt water I would not be worried at all.

There are many aluminum parts/motors and the like that last many years in fresh water.

Now if the use will be in Brackish water or severely polluted that is different.

Otherwise don't waist the money.....Again you will get years and years out of the ONLY aluminum part you are installing..the intake........
 
I am strongly considering closed cooling and as I am sure you can tell I am wrestling with how far to go on marine protection given the fact that I am in fresh water and currently the boat is kept in the dry. I am putting protections in place but I have to weigh the benefits versus cost. Closed cooling is definitely tempting, do you have a good recommended system at a good price?

The PH balance of river or lake water is slightly incorrect for Non-Marine cylinder head gaskets and/or aluminum components that are not bronze protected. Iron rusts due to Iron Oxidation. Aluminum corrodes due to Aluminum Oxidation.
The two metals together when sharing an incorrect PH balance cooling solution, creates a soup mix that is near perfect to acellerate Rust and/or Corrosion.

As said earlier, you could pull this off for a while, but it will cause issues down the road. How far down the road???? I can't say!!!!

A Closed Cooling system (be it a Full or Half system), would be my choice for this fresh, expensive engine.


This used "Half" system includes the T-stat housing, Tube/Shell mounting bracket, but is minus the T-fitting/diverter.
Auction ends soon!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MERCURY-MER..._Accessories_Gear&hash=item4ae30ea66f&vxp=mtr


This system looks like it includes all that you'd need for a "Half" system.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-5-7L-Fr..._Accessories_Gear&hash=item3cf09a031c&vxp=mtr


Here's another used "Half" system...... $325 + $51 for shipping.
Looks like a home made splitter/diverter that may not have the interior diverter web.... but you can buy or make one.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fresh-Water..._Accessories_Gear&hash=item3f3cb22e3a&vxp=mtr



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Rick
This ought to stop your EEEEEEEEElongated POSTS on this matter once and for all.
BRASS LINED WATER JACKETS for a small block aluminum intake manifold and there is one for the Vortec heads.............Yippie.....
DONE DEAL AND SOLVES ALL WHO MAY BE CONCERNED..................GOOGLE CAN BE YOUR FREIND!!

http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/mc/manifolds/marine.shtml

Jack, feel free to borrow these and take another look at my post #64.
images

And while at it, please feel free to keep and use these.

images
images
 
See the problem is that post 64 is so dam long and with all the color changes it is difficult to follow. I just tried to reread it and still don't know what you are referring to ..........to much information!! I only breezed thru the whole post so did not read all the specifics........again too much info on too many different subjects in one place.

Short and to the point............

you posted a picture of a manifold..........yes

I posted a active link to one for purchase.........so in the end we are on the same page and he can actually purchase one for 1/10 the cost of going closed cooling.

DONE!
 
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See the problem is that post 64 is so dam long and with all the color changes it is difficult to follow. I just tried to reread it and still don't know what you are referring to ..........to much information!! I only breezed thru the whole post so did not read all the specifics........again too much info on too many different subjects in one place.

Short and to the point............ you posted a picture of a manifold..........yes
I posted a active link to one for purchase......... so in the end we are on the same page and he can actually purchase one for 1/10 the cost of going closed cooling.

DONE!

Thanks for the clarity, Jack, although I fail to see where my long post is difficult to follow or comprehend.

Ultimately this decision is Jeff's.
All we can do is to make suggestions to him, of which we have both done.
Let's let Jeff make his own decision.


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Did this build get completed, and if yes, how did it turn out?
I am entertaining the idea of a similar build for an early 80's 28 foot Bayliner 10 ft beam 8,000 lb. boat.
Horrendously underpowered with single 350, VP225. The stroker 383 project Jeff was posting about seems similar to my needs.

I'll post a separate thread at some point with what I'm looking for. I'm in saltwater, Puget Sound and Westport, WA, and try to keep things about my scenario focused there.
A few questions I think that are relevant in this thread:

1) I am curious about what wound up happening--anyone know, is the engine done and in the boat, and now speeding happily through the water?

2) If YES to 1, what were the final build specs and parts that were used? Anything that in hindsight the engine builder would choose to do differently?

3) For non-mechanic guys like me who need SIMPLE, are there any reliable crate engine builders that have a good track record with stroker 383's and can get the Q/E piston stuff right in a marine build? Like I could order it, have it arrive, and have one of my "real mechanic" friends help me install it?

4) Can VP 280 outdrives stand up to a 400hp stroker 383 build, or is this just a bad idea, and don't exceed their 225 official number?
Just looking for quick answers if there are any, and I'll post my own thread soon to ask for advice on my specific scenario.

I just want to say what an awesome and educational thread this has been to read, and thank you to the knowledgeable posters who shared their expertise!!
 
I had that same boat, and it has a--shall we say--a unique hull. Mine had a 325 hp aftermarket engine and the VP drive held up fine. (They were sold behind big block 454s.)

Back to that hull....It will go about 28-29 mph and that is all. You can put a 454 in there (as my neighbor did)) and it will go no damn faster. It WILL cruise effortlessly at around 25 mph (3,500 rpms on mine), and hold a plane in rough water without having to go to WOT, b. But try over 28 mph and it's like hitting a wall!

Jeff

PS: The later Bayliner hulls were vastly different. My neighbors hit close to 40 mph with a 300 Mercruiser.
 
.......................

Did this build get completed, and if yes, how did it turn out?
I do not know. It would be nice to see a follow-up!

I am entertaining the idea of a similar build for an early 80's 28 foot Bayliner 10 ft beam 8,000 lb. boat.
Horrendously underpowered with single 350, VP225. The stroker 383 project Jeff was posting about seems similar to my needs.
The 6.2L (377 cu in) or 6.3L (383 cu in) is a great engine when built correctly.

I can't stress enough the importance of the Q/E build, especially for this engine.



I'll post a separate thread at some point with what I'm looking for. I'm in saltwater, Puget Sound and Westport, WA, and try to keep things about my scenario focused there.
A few questions I think that are relevant in this thread:
Yes, a new thread would be best!

1) I am curious about what wound up happening--anyone know, is the engine done and in the boat, and now speeding happily through the water?

2) If YES to 1, what were the final build specs and parts that were used? Anything that in hindsight the engine builder would choose to do differently?
A good SBC Marine Engine builder will steer clear of the GM style full dished pistons!

3) For non-mechanic guys like me who need SIMPLE, are there any reliable crate engine builders that have a good track record with stroker 383's and can get the Q/E piston stuff right in a marine build? Like I could order it, have it arrive, and have one of my "real mechanic" friends help me install it?
The average Joe Engine Rebuilder will use the dreaded GM full dished pistons!
Why..... because they are inexpensive, 1 p/n fits all 8 bores, ignition advance is held back, and the average customer doesn't know the difference.

4) Can VP 280 outdrives stand up to a 400hp stroker 383 build, or is this just a bad idea, and don't exceed their 225 official number?
If the 280 transmission's Main Drive Gear Bearings are good..... it will handle the hp.
BTW....... the 225 is in reference to horse power, as in the GM SBC 5.0L w/ 225 hp... aka AQ225.


Just looking for quick answers if there are any, and I'll post my own thread soon to ask for advice on my specific scenario.
This is far too important to be looking for "quick" and "simple" answers.
 
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