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Cracked 350 block 383 build to replace need input

Back to the issue of building a stroker engine.

I would price out everything you need to build this engine, from the oil pan drain plug right up to the new spark arrestor you will need to let this engine breath.

You will include the new flywheel and balancer also. Yes you will need to get ones that match your new rotating assembly.


Now after you add this all together what is the cost? If you are approaching the $6K mark, it is foolish to build this engine. The Reason, all the time and labor to build it plus the lack of any warranty.

This is why I suggest a fully dressed Reman 383 MPI from mercruiser. 3 year warranty which includes labor. 5200rpm with no worries for a few $K more.

Here is an example of what can happen. This picture is of the oil filter media from a stroker MPI that was put together by a builder who installed the wrong flywheel. The slight unnoticeable vibration in the beginning became a bad vibration after 50hrs. The metal flake in the filter and oil was substantial.


filter.jpg
 
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Dockside I appreciate your opinion too!!!
Back to the issue of building a stroker engine.

I would price out everything you need to build this engine, from the oil pan drain plug right up to the new spark arrestor you will need to let this engine breath.
Absolutely correct and precisely what I am in the process of doing. I am developing my shopping list so to speak but it needs to be done wisely because the sum of all parts needed can easily range between $1500 and $12000 dollars and it is easier to do than one may think. This part of the process in needed but actually can be advantageous. I have found that remans. typically use the cheapest parts available that meet minimum spec. I Am looking to do it better than stock spec but still on a budget. Initial calculations look very promising as long as I have chosen appropriate parts. We will see when I can publish my build sheet.
You will include the new flywheel and balancer also. Yes you will need to get ones that match your new rotating assembly.
Yes I will need to match my assembly and have it balanced and there are choices here too. Looks like I will go with a scat crankshaft one piece rear main seal internal/external balanced so my old flywheel and H. balancer will be what I use and have all balanced as a unit here. This is a potential pitfall area in building a 383 and a place where people make a mistake that costs them big money and or terrible performance.

Now after you add this all together what is the cost? If you are approaching the $6K mark, it is foolish to build this engine. The Reason, all the time and labor to build it plus the lack of any warranty.
I agree and disagree. 6k in any form would be foolish IMO to place at once into this boat. However I disagree with the time and labor and warranty thing. I cherish my garage time and I am not sure just how much I would pay for this peaceful feeling...lol and IMO warranties on something like a seasonal use engine aren't worth the paper they are written on. There are a lot of examples that a customer complains about engine failure after a handful of uses and the xxxx company says complaint was out of warranty, or ship the engine to us for examination. Actually it might be better stated they are worth a little something if the situation fits but not the be all end all that people tend to make of them. JMHO

This is why I suggest a fully dressed Reman 383 MPI from mercruiser. 3 year warranty which includes labor. 5200rpm with no worries for a few $K more.
Agreed if you are in the market for reman go direct to source or a very reliable and reputable source. People must choose very wisely here.

Here is an example of what can happen. This picture is of the oil filter media from a stroker MPI that was put together by a builder who installed the wrong flywheel. The slight unnoticeable vibration in the beginning became a bad vibration after 50hrs. The metal flake in the filter and oil was substantial.
Looks to me like a rebuild may be in order. Balance engine properly!!! These things undergo mind boggling forces!!!

View attachment 10487
 
If I read post #1 correctly, Jeff is wanting to do a 383 SBC Q/E build.
If so, why are we not offering Jeff assistance with his proposed build?

We all know that the Merc 377 (6.2L) and 383 (6.3L) use the GM full dished pistons!


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Personally, I'm a big fan of factory stock, crate engines... then again, I TOTALLY understand "rollling your own" for the personal satisfaction of "doing it right" and, the possibility of saving a few bucks isn't shabby either.
 
Interesting read for basic 383 build

http://www.chevymania.com/tech/383.htm
This guys knows his stuff. He can walk you through what must be done to build a 377 or 383. He explains the connecting rod lengths, how this affects the pistons etc. Short skirts -vs- longer skirts, clearances, etc. There is lots of great information in his write-up.
However, he is refering to an Automotive build that would not be suitable for Marine Cruiser use, IMO.
We don't want extended connecting rods, nor do we want short skirts or raised wrist pins for the Marine version.
We are not operating our cruiser engines at high RPM.


And this one... Of course this is automotive but has some good info
http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/hrdp-0503-chevy-383-engine/
Yes, another HP Automotive build.
Take a close look at the Speed Pro LW2605F30 piston that they have selected! (good choice, BTW)

Look at the difference between the Speed Pro LW2605F30 (left side) and the typical GM full dished piston (right side).

trw-lw2605f30_w_ml.jpg
.......................
images

Above is a Quench style SBC piston ..................... and above here is the GM full dished SBC piston.
Quench is possible with the above piston .............. a quench is NOT posible with this piston.


Ebay 383 motors.......for reference on pre built, I am sure if you were to call many of directly they would make the block marine suitable.
http://www.ebay.com/bhp/383-chevy-engine
This is PMCMachine.
For their 390 horse power engine build, they list Flat Top pistons, 9.5:1 C/R with 64cc cylinder heads. The math does not work.

For their 440 horse power engine build, they list Flat Top pistons, 9.5:1 C/R with 64cc cylinder heads. Again, the math does not work.

For their 420 horse power engine build, they list Flat Top pistons, 9.5:1 C/R, but no cylinder head information. Even with 76cc chambers, the C/R is above 10:1.

BTW, this company does offer a "request a quote" option on the web site.
It would be interesting to hear what they have to say re; a Q/E build for their 383 Marine version.


banner1.jpg

Personally, I'm a big fan of factory stock, crate engines... then again, I TOTALLY understand "rollling your own" for the personal satisfaction of "doing it right" and, the possibility of saving a few bucks isn't shabby either.

I couldn't agree with you more.


Let me say it again.

The GM full dished piston fits all 8 bores, which means that only one part number is necessary.
It's inexpensive to manufacture, and it's inexpensive to purchase.
It's easy to use. No High IQ necessary to install with regard to the connecting rods and with regard to fitting the pistons/rods into the cylinder block.
A high school boy could do this.
GM and the engine rebuilders love this piston for the reasons mentioned above.
As long as we buy the concept, they will continue using it.

But please note:

1.... NO Quench = the need for delayed ignition advance as to avoid detonation potential. (remember... this is a Marine Cruiser engine... not a Street Rod engine)
2.... Delayed ignition advance = a lazy LPCP (LPCP = location of peak cylinder pressure)
3.... A lazy LPCP = less torque than what is achievable had a Q/E been used in the build.



Go with the conventional build, and you'll have a good SBC. It will run for a long time and with no issues.

Go with the Out of the Box thinking (Q/E build), and you'll have an even better SBC and with torque to it's potential.
A good quench will offer better fuel economy as well.


I've lost track of how many SBCs I've built over the years... both for Street use and for Marine use.
To date, I have NEVER built one using anything but a Quench Effect style piston.
With the correct piston dish volume, achieving the desired static C/R is very easy.



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I'll stoop to a low level here, and will respond to Wayne.

summer Fun II said:
Please answer my questions. Have YOU ever built or used one ?. I'm saying NO you haven't !.
I have built my share of them over the years, and I have never built a SBC without using a Q/E style piston.

You came up with this hairbrain idea of using it in marine engines.
Actually, I am not alone here.
Dennis Moore was among the first to publish information on this style build for Marine use.
For those who are not familiar with Dennis Moore, check out "SBC Marine Performance".

images


You got shot down by _____ and Others over this Q/E nonsense on ___ & _____.
I have always come up against resistance from those who are not experienced.
There is overwhelming evidence that the quench effect does have benefits.
This is nothing new..... all of the early GM SBC V-8s used this technology. The HP GM SBC V-8s of this style still do today.
The Chrysler Wedge Head boys have been doing this sucessfully for years.


1..... You've been banned in most every boatin' forum on the net,...

2..... Crawl back into yer hole, 'n stay there, Troll,....

1.... Yes, and ME.com is rather tolerant. If you've been banned HERE.... you've deserved it! :mad:

2.... Oh he'll crawl out again, Bill ...... just give him time! :eek:




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I have been busy doing a ton of reading, thinking and research and I am fairly certain I have decided on the 383 engine build plan. Here is the plan I have outlined for myself. I would love more input and ideas but please make sure to understand and pay attention to the details. The little things here are what I need to make sure I am doing ok with.
The block will be $560 from machine shop that includes:
Clean and check
Bore and hone .030 over
0 deck to my specs
Brass soft plugs
Clearance for 383
Install cam bearings

The Rotating assembly is as follows:

Scat 935050L Crankshaft

Scat Pro Stock 4340 Forged I-Beam rods with 3/8" cap screws - 25700

KB102-030 -18cc Piston and Moly rings: 1/16 1/16/ 3/16 could use kb135 thicker rings thoughts?

The above rotating assembly is actually a slightly modified (piston with thinner rings) package that is offered from scat. It includes appropriate rings and bearings both main and rod. It is a 1 piece rear main seal that is external balance in the rear and internal in the front. It is available balanced if I would like to purchase another flywheel form them. It is the 350 flywheel from 1pc rear main seal blocks. I already have one so probably going to have it balanced locally after I have checked all fit and clearance. Also this uses a neutral balance damper which I also have.
It may be cheaper to have them do it before shipping. Any opinions here?

Of course I will also replace:
Main seal
Full gasket kit
Marine Head gasket Felpro .039 comp thickness
Water pump

I will use from one of my 2 old engines:
Roller lifters - rebuilt
Pushrods - Inspected and straight
Lifter retainers etc.
Ignition and distributor
All other bolt ons
Vortec 64cc Heads after $320 valve job
Actually I could also purchase these. would use worst ones as the core.
Any opinions? A few dollars more but could be worth it if there are issues with my second set.

The cam selected is important when it comes to dynamic compression ratio so I will almost certainly keep this unless there are similar cams that would not affect that too much. What are thoughts on this for a marine cruiser?

Comp Cam X4258HR A 4x4 offroad cam recommended by Comp. knowing it was for a boat and my intended use.

Dynamic Compression Ratio = 8.04 Altitude of 600 ft rest of information here.
Static Compression Ratio = 9.55 Using .039 marine felpro gasket with a bore of 4.125 and a deck clearance of .005 Creates a Q/E height of .044.

After exhaustive research think I want to go with a marine edelbrock performer or a stock mercruiser manifold and a #1409 edelbrock marine carb. I would prefer a cast iron intake manifold but this seems to be a close second choice. It will likely perform a little better in my application. I have gone through all of edelbrocks tech stuff and it appears to me that this combination will allow this engine to “breath” all it needs to for the RPM’s I will be turning. There are cheaper options out there and they have me tempted. I can get a performer style aluminum manifold for about 1/3 the price of the marine edelbrock manifold. I know about salt water corrosion issues but I cruise mainly in fresh water and I am only considering the remote possibility of 1 or 2 trips in salt water for a few days. Am I nuts for even considering this? Real life examples or experience would be very helpful here if I am going to even think about it.
Lastly the stock ignition and distributor seem to be a nice way to go for this. I have gone through the merc manual and it has nice features and protections. This is an area where I am sure all of the marine mechanics here can be of great assistance.
I hope I didn’t forget to outline anything and if I did please let me know. I am fairly certain I have thought about it just didn’t outline it here.
Thanks again everyone for your thoughts.
 
I would use your heads, just get them fully inspected to get the best out of what you have.

Aluminum intake will work just fine for fresh water use. Even for once in a while salt water use. (just flush well after salt water use!!) Remember the outdrive is aluminum....it sits in water all the time when docked or moored. It lasts for years.



I would think this would be a better cam for a 383..........the cam you selected is fairly wimpy........


The factory cam for the 350 is bigger than the one you have chosen.



http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/cam-specs/Details.aspx?csid=202&sb=2


The only issue I have with your remaining components is the factory ignition and whether or not it will give you the performance you are looking for.

Of course it will work but will it be the best.

I may need to look a bit deeper into merc's timing modules to see if there is any difference in timing tables.

The rest looks good to me.......
 
Jeff, good choice on the connecting rod length and with going with the later cylinder block that will be roller cam capable.

Your KB piston selection is currently at a 4.000" bore. If you're going .030" over, this part number needs to be changed.

The above rotating assembly is actually a slightly modified (piston with thinner rings) package that is offered from scat. It includes appropriate rings and bearings both main and rod. It is a 1 piece rear main seal that is external balance in the rear and internal in the front.
1.... It is available balanced if I would like to purchase another flywheel form them. It is the 350 flywheel from 1pc rear main seal blocks.

2.... I already have one so probably going to have it balanced locally after I have checked all fit and clearance. Also this uses a neutral balance damper which I also have.
3.... It may be cheaper to have them do it before shipping. Any opinions here?
1.... They will balance all as an assembly.

2.... See above.

3.... Not only less expensive, but as said, all must be balanced as an assembly.
Why do it twice, and pay for it twice?


Of course I will also replace:
Main seal
Full gasket kit
Marine Head gasket Felpro .039 comp thickness
Water pump

If you are going with a Closed Cooling system, you can use High Performance automotive head gaskets with no issues whatsoever.
You'll find a greater array of compressed thickness's with the HP Auto gaskets.

I will use from one of my 2 old engines:
1... Roller lifters - rebuilt
Pushrods - Inspected and straight
Lifter retainers etc.
2... Ignition and distributor
All other bolt ons
Vortec 64cc Heads after $320 valve job
3.... Actually I could also purchase these. would use worst ones as the core.
Any opinions? A few dollars more but could be worth it if there are issues with my second set.

1.... Roller Cam Followers are often specific to the actual cam profile and radius. DO NOT mix/match without first having varified.

2... with your new Q/E build, and in order to take advantage of the Quench Effect, your ignition TA will be increased. If you will be using an EST system, make certain that the ignition module offers the correct BASE and TA.

3.... What is the cost comparison when you add shipping? As I see it, you'd be paying for shipping TO YOU, and again for your cores back TO THEM..... yes/no?
Your machine shop will varify your castings for fractures prior to doing any work.


The cam selected is important when it comes to dynamic compression ratio so I will almost certainly keep this unless there are similar cams that would not affect that too much. What are thoughts on this for a marine cruiser?
Again, I'll suggest that after all of your components have been selected, call a reputable camshaft manufacturer, and ask for their recommendation.

Dynamic Compression Ratio = 8.04 Altitude of 600 ft rest of information here.
Static Compression Ratio = 9.55 Using .039 marine felpro gasket with a bore of 4.125 and a deck clearance of .005 Creates a Q/E height of .044.
Your bore will be 4.030"... not 4.125" ..... (4.125" is the SBC 400 cu. in. standard bore dimension)

A quench of .044" should be OK.


1.... After exhaustive research think I want to go with a marine edelbrock performer or a stock mercruiser manifold and a #1409 edelbrock marine carb.
2.... I would prefer a cast iron intake manifold but this seems to be a close second choice. It will likely perform a little better in my application. I have gone through all of edelbrocks tech stuff and it appears to me that this combination will allow this engine to “breath” all it needs to for the RPM’s I will be turning. There are cheaper options out there and they have me tempted. I can get a performer style aluminum manifold for about 1/3 the price of the marine edelbrock manifold. I know about salt water corrosion issues but I cruise mainly in fresh water and I am only considering the remote possibility of 1 or 2 trips in salt water for a few days. Am I nuts for even considering this? Real life examples or experience would be very helpful here if I am going to even think about it.
3... Lastly the stock ignition and distributor seem to be a nice way to go for this. I have gone through the merc manual and it has nice features and protections. This is an area where I am sure all of the marine mechanics here can be of great assistance.

1... I dislike the Edelbrock carburetors... and would much prefer the Holley spread bore Q-jet replacement.... but this is an idividual choice.
Your call!

2... the Performer is a dual plane manifold and will work just fine IF you go with a Closed Cooling system.
In spite of what you're hearing, you will eventually have electrolisis and galvanic corrosion issues if the engine is raw water cooled... even if operated in Lake/River water. If may be OK for several years, but it will eventually cause problems.

3... The OEM Merc ignition is EST, and is set up for the dreaded GM full dished pistons and related non-aggressive "progressive" and "total" advance that these engines require in order to combat Detonation.
My question would become..... "Why go to the trouble of building a good Q/E into this engine, if you're to hold back the TA?"
This is all about obtaining a good LPCP.

Jack also asks the question re; the Merc module curve, and I believe that this would be very important to look into.
(keep in mind that Merc has designed their EST system to work with the GM full dished pistons.... not a good Q/E build)

If you can find a module that meets your new requirements, go for it.



Edit:
One more thought..... if you increase the intake valve diameter, it may create the need for larger intake valve reliefs in the piston decks... of which may lead to 4 piston part numbers, instead of only 2 part numbers..... of which is no huge ordeal.
Your machinist should be able to advise you.

I would suggest going larger for a 6.3L build.


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Jeff, I bit of clarification.

RicardoMarine said:
1.... Roller Cam Followers are often specific to the actual cam profile and radius. DO NOT mix/match without first having varified.

The roller cam follower "rollers" may not all of the same diameter, in that each diameter is chosen by the camshaft manufacturer, and may be specific to that particalar cam profile.
As you can imagine, a change in roller diameter (one that would not be correct for the profile), would affect the end result valve operation.

With flat tappet followers, the follower bore diameter determines the follower's cam contact area.
 

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"""1.... Roller Cam Followers are often specific to the actual cam profile and radius. DO NOT mix/match without first having verified."""


I would not rebuild the old rollers lifters........

I would purchase brand new GM. The cost out weighs the potential problems. What ever the part number/diameter {if there is any difference at all in diameter} of the current just replace with that of GM or equivalent. They are not expensive and you do not want to hope for the best with these as they are a very important part. Besides if one fails you will need to take it apart again!!

I highly doubt there will be any difference in lifter size or design for almost all OEM/factory 350 roller lifters which he will be using. They rarely vary. so don't go there.......just measure the old ones if you need to from the motor you are using and replace with the same "size". Most changes are within the inside (plunger, orifice, and spring and roller design as in the bearing or bushing used and the width of the roller) but "typically" every change makes them better than the previous. The flat tappet lifter size was almost the same size for OEM for a million years.......the roller lifter is most likely the same.


""2... the Performer is a dual plane manifold and will work just fine IF you go with a Closed Cooling system.
In spite of what you're hearing, you will eventually have electrolysis and galvanic corrosion issues if the engine is raw water cooled... even if operated in Lake/River water. If may be OK for several years, but it will eventually cause problems.""

Don't sweat this.........any manifold material will work and the motor will most likely fail before the manifold as long as you use it in fresh water 99% of the time.


The total advance for this motor considering it will be running under or around 5000 rpms max will be pretty close to what he needs. It is the advance curve that I am concerned with. The total will only hold back (if it really does at all) the max output at higher rpms.......Not to sure it will have much affect on over all performance. Besides he can always just adjust initial a few degrees when testing. Other wise the only way to be sure is to DYNO the motor to get all out of it. But a tunable ignition on a custom build is always preferred.
 
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I would use your heads, just get them fully inspected to get the best out of what you have.
That is what I was thinking just a bit of gamble if something needs replacing then the others would have been the way to go. I am just going to jump in with faith. I do have 2 sets of everything so I should be able to make 2 good ones.

Aluminum intake will work just fine for fresh water use. Even for once in a while salt water use. (just flush well after salt water use!!) Remember the outdrive is aluminum....it sits in water all the time when docked or moored. It lasts for years.
I know it will work but I am more afraid of how long. I would love great examples like "so and so had one on for x years in these conditions and this is what they were like" The edelbrock marine one is brass lined but for the price it might as well be gold!!!

I would think this would be a better cam for a 383..........the cam you selected is fairly wimpy........
Yes it is, this was a cam advised by a comp cam tech. Our conversation was fairly brief but after speaking about boat type and cruise speeds etc this is what he suggested. Not a high RPM cam looking to increase wot speed but a torquey fuel economy type cam. It is actually a cam used in lifted 4x4 trucks with oversized mudders. It seems to me a good fit for my application unless I am way off base. Which is easily possible.

The factory cam for the 350 is bigger than the one you have chosen.
Actually I know the lift on the factory cam is lower. .2783 intake and .2874 exhaust. That is valve lift per the merc. manual. That is dismal but I am glad I had to search it out so the factory cam will not be going back in. If you have information otherwise or a way to identify one of the 2 cams I have I would really appreciate it.


http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/cam-specs/Details.aspx?csid=202&sb=2
The issue I see with this cam selection is the valve lift. Stock vortecs are capable of .480 at best unmodified. There are cheap ways of gaining a bit here but the stock springs quickly become the next issue. I definitely want to avoid all of that. The heads could quickly top $1000 and we would be well on our way to a "go fast" build.


The only issue I have with your remaining components is the factory ignition and whether or not it will give you the performance you are looking for.

Of course it will work but will it be the best.

I may need to look a bit deeper into merc's timing modules to see if there is any difference in timing tables.
To be honest here I think I need the most help. Heck I am not even 100% sure which of the ignition systems I have currently. I am sure there is room for improvement here and I am all ears.

The rest looks good to me.......

I think I have it figured out through the longblock just want to check, recheck etc. Intake up through ignition etc is where I can see things changing. I am still open to a minor cam change or even using one of the 2 stocks I have if I could finds specs on them. BTW keep in mind that vortec heads are the best flowing stock lower lift heads GM has produced. With that only marginal improvements come from modifications especially in rpm ranges I am looking to stay within.


 
Jeff, good choice on the connecting rod length and with going with the later cylinder block that will be roller cam capable.

Your KB piston selection is currently at a 4.000" bore. If you're going .030" over, this part number needs to be changed.
Yes, I just provided the link to them when you go on the site you select the bore oversize.


1.... They will balance all as an assembly.

2.... See above.

3.... Not only less expensive, but as said, all must be balanced as an assembly.
Why do it twice, and pay for it twice?

A little clarification needed here. The kit can come either balanced or unbalanced. Unbalanced I would have balanced locally with my flywheel and likely to better tolerances than these kits are packaged. The resellers madify these packages all of the time and mine would be no exception. (Thinner rings, and pistons to accommodate them) would likely weight just a bit different yet the reseller would not likely balance. I wouldn't save anything using my flywheel because they mass balance these things but I would get a better balance job having it done local. Hotrodders would all say have it done local for better results. Also if any machining was needed anywhere on pistons or rods better to do that before balancing.


If you are going with a Closed Cooling system, you can use High Performance automotive head gaskets with no issues whatsoever.
You'll find a greater array of compressed thickness's with the HP Auto gaskets.
Understood but have no problem with .039 and I just do not see closed cooling in the budget :(


1.... Roller Cam Followers are often specific to the actual cam profile and radius. DO NOT mix/match without first having varified.

I am 99.9% certain GM works with that cam but will verify. I believe I did ask that but can't remember for sure now.

2... with your new Q/E build, and in order to take advantage of the Quench Effect, your ignition TA will be increased. If you will be using an EST system, make certain that the ignition module offers the correct BASE and TA.
I could use more guidance here but also remember that cam typically has 4* built in to it. Something to keep in mind.

3.... What is the cost comparison when you add shipping? As I see it, you'd be paying for shipping TO YOU, and again for your cores back TO THEM..... yes/no?
Your machine shop will varify your castings for fractures prior to doing any work.
Shipping for t two is $40 and returns are included in that. I could get those in 906 casting. Could get one in 906 casting and would match the head that did not get freeze cracked. Could buy 2 and sell the three I have etc. Just something to consider.

Again, I'll suggest that after all of your components have been selected, call a reputable camshaft manufacturer, and ask for their recommendation.
Did that with what I have on the bottom end and what I have in mind for the top end and this is one of 2 the Comp cam tech gave me.

Your bore will be 4.030"... not 4.125" ..... (4.125" is the SBC 400 cu. in. standard bore dimension)
Cylinder bore is 4.030 Felpro marine gasket bore size for SBC is 4.125. I sought out and use this dimension in precise SCR calculation.

A quench of .044" should be OK.




1... I dislike the Edelbrock carburetors... and would much prefer the Holley spread bore Q-jet replacement.... but this is an idividual choice.
Your call!

2... the Performer is a dual plane manifold and will work just fine IF you go with a Closed Cooling system.
In spite of what you're hearing, you will eventually have electrolisis and galvanic corrosion issues if the engine is raw water cooled... even if operated in Lake/River water. If may be OK for several years, but it will eventually cause problems.
I fully understand that after some undetermined amount of years this will likely happen depending on conditions they are exposed to. However I am considering it because, I am in fresh water, at least this season the boat will be trailered, I pull the thermostat annually for winterizing, at 1/3 the cost for the marine version I could replace almost 3 times (gaskets would make it more like 2) before I was at break even point. Not normally the way I do things and I may be nuts for considering it but economically it is making some sense.

3... The OEM Merc ignition is EST, and is set up for the dreaded GM full dished pistons and related non-aggressive "progressive" and "total" advance that these engines require in order to combat Detonation.
My question would become..... "Why go to the trouble of building a good Q/E into this engine, if you're to hold back the TA?"
This is all about obtaining a good LPCP.

Jack also asks the question re; the Merc module curve, and I believe that this would be very important to look into.
(keep in mind that Merc has designed their EST system to work with the GM full dished pistons.... not a good Q/E build)

If you can find a module that meets your new requirements, go for it.
24-298.jpg
I am not sure but it seems like this ignition can give all the timing advance I need.?



Edit:
One more thought..... if you increase the intake valve diameter, it may create the need for larger intake valve reliefs in the piston decks... of which may lead to 4 piston part numbers, instead of only 2 part numbers..... of which is no huge ordeal.
Your machinist should be able to advise you.

I would suggest going larger for a 6.3L build.
Negative. Larger intake diameter can actually reduce performance on the vortec head. Small gains can be had in certain areas but at great risk and cost. The exhaust side is the weak side but here the restriction is my stock manifolds anyways. Not likely to do anything with them as they really are GM's best low lift flow head as stock. There are others that perform better after exhaustive modifications but these really do seem to fit the bill quite nicely.


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you guys have been awesome and I learn every day. This is going to be one impressive build .
 
Jeff, I'll start with Detonation:
Detonation and Pre-ignition are not the same.
If I am understanding you, you are wanting to do a Q/E build as to combat potential Detonation issues, and to maximize your torque from this new 6.3L SBC.
You also understand that this is even more so important with a 6.3L Marine SBC build.
I'll make the assumption that you understand LPCP.
I'm not sure that you are understanding the Ignition Advance's role in this. No offense!


I believe that there is a problem with the ignition advance curve shown.

Most all Marine curves will be minus Initial advance (as shown in the vertical scale), and will show only the mechanical or Electronic Spark Timing (EST) advance.
This graph clearly mentions "total spark advance minus initial timing".
This means that what the graph shows must have the Initial advance value added to it in order to see what the actual cylinders receive as spark lead.
Look at the "acceleration advance range" @ 2k rpm. It shows approx. 34 degrees of advance. :eek:
I could just about guarantee you that I could cause most any SBC Marine engine to Detonate if those values were use while under Marine Loads.
If I held it there for any length of time, I could burn the tops out of at lest several pistons, and most likely take a few valves out with it.

Our concern is the Progressive advance, and TA (TA = total advance) and at which RPM the advance occurs.
IOW...... we cannot discuss ignition advance without also factoring in the RPM at which each level of advance occurs!
Too aggressive and/or too early, and will risk Detonation damage.
Too wimpy or lazy, and we leave performance on the table.

The potential torque for every piston engine depends on a good LPCP.
Baring that all else is good, our gasoline engines turn this responsibility over to the ignition advance, allowing it to have the last word re; LPCP.... so to speak.


As for the GM Vortec chamber design, you'll get the most from this when a Q/E is used in the design.


As for the Performer intake being used in a raw water cooled engine scenario....... like said it work OK for a while.
How long??? I have no clue!
But lets says that corrosion eventually begins to breach the area between the front coolant cross over area and the valley.
Will your temperature instrument let you know when this begins to occur????
Is it worth this risk???


To be continued! :D



.
 
SBC Marine Engine Ignition Advance related to Q/E -vs- non Q/E build.


GM full dished pistons cause the SBC Marine engine to be detonation prone.
The fix: hold back ignition advance. Example...... 26* to 28* @ 3.2k rpm
The results: a lazy LPCP (let's say 16* to 17* ATDC)
The results: less potential torque, limited performance, more fuel burn


A quench style piston and chamber design are less detonation prone.
Result: allows for more spark lead (aka ignition advance) Example...... 30* to 32* @ 3.2k rpm
Result: an LPCP closer to where it should be (let's say 12* to 14* ATDC)
The results: more torque, better performance, less fuel burn

.
 
So much lipstick on a pig. Ford 460 all the way.
GM engines are just time bombs.

I know, no help, but jeez so much keyboarding over this and the fella's gonna do what he darn well pleases anyway despite what you girls say.
 
So much lipstick on a pig. Ford 460 all the way.
GM engines are just time bombs.

I know, no help, but jeez so much keyboarding over this and the fella's gonna do what he darn well pleases anyway despite what you girls say.

No help at all and I have already made some different choices as a direct result of several of their opinions. Yes I will make the final decision but some here have seriously helped me. I can't thank them enough and I really appreciate the time they have taken to respond.
 
Jeff, I'll start with Detonation:
Detonation and Pre-ignition are not the same.
If I am understanding you, you are wanting to do a Q/E build as to combat potential Detonation issues, and to maximize your torque from this new 6.3L SBC.
You also understand that this is even more so important with a 6.3L Marine SBC build.
I'll make the assumption that you understand LPCP.
I'm not sure that you are understanding the Ignition Advance's role in this. No offense!
Correct me if I am wrong. LPCP should be at about 12*- 14* ATDC for optimal torque. For simplicity combustion in the chamber takes X amount of time. As rpms increase that time remains the same but degrees of advance needed to correctly time the spark event needs to increase. This is because as the rotations are happening faster or maybe better stated traveling a larger distance in the same amount of time. The timing advance is the very thing that allows for this. The curve is the thing that sets how aggressively or lazily this happens. I know this is simply stated but I am terrible at making things clear . I do believe I have a grasp of that part.

I believe that there is a problem with the ignition advance curve shown.
That graph is merely a representation. Does anyone know the actual curve? is it possible to map it out without interference from the other parts of this system or is it simply the electronics do what they think are best and that is it?

Most all Marine curves will be minus Initial advance (as shown in the vertical scale), and will show only the mechanical or Electronic Spark Timing (EST) advance.
This graph clearly mentions "total spark advance minus initial timing".
This means that what the graph shows must have the Initial advance value added to it in order to see what the actual cylinders receive as spark lead.
Look at the "acceleration advance range" @ 2k rpm. It shows approx. 34 degrees of advance. :eek:
I could just about guarantee you that I could cause most any SBC Marine engine to Detonate if those values were use while under Marine Loads.
If I held it there for any length of time, I could burn the tops out of at lest several pistons, and most likely take a few valves out with it.

Our concern is the Progressive advance, and TA (TA = total advance) and at which RPM the advance occurs.
IOW...... we cannot discuss ignition advance without also factoring in the RPM at which each level of advance occurs!
Too aggressive and/or too early, and will risk Detonation damage.
Too wimpy or lazy, and we leave performance on the table.
Understood and precisely the reason I need help with this. I would like to know the curve of this system and have yet to find it. There does seem to be some safeguards built in there with the knock sensor. Also there is the acceleration advance etc. It seemed to me this system was designed to have a conservative curve and if conditions allowed without potential for damage then it would allow for a more aggressive advance. Am I not understanding that correctly?

The potential torque for every piston engine depends on a good LPCP.
Baring that all else is good, our gasoline engines turn this responsibility over to the ignition advance, allowing it to have the last word re; LPCP.... so to speak.


As for the GM Vortec chamber design, you'll get the most from this when a Q/E is used in the design.


As for the Performer intake being used in a raw water cooled engine scenario....... like said it work OK for a while.
How long??? I have no clue!
But lets says that corrosion eventually begins to breach the area between the front coolant cross over area and the valley.
Will your temperature instrument let you know when this begins to occur????
Is it worth this risk???
No if it happened there all at once without showing signs elsewhere. If that is the way it actually happens it is certainly not worth the risk. If there is likely to be indicators of corrosion at the thermostat housing first or at same time then yes I think it may be. That area is inspected regularly so early signs would be detected.

To be continued! :D



.

I hope I am understanding all correctly.
 
Excuse me!? Real summer fun 2. This is a thread I have asked for assistance and opinions on an engine build. I do not want nor have I asked for personal battles. Do you have something constructive to add? If so awesome. If not please take personal battle elsewhere. I would appreciate it and it would allow me to plan this build without having to read through needless posts.
Thank you
 
Excuse me!? Real summer fun 2. This is a thread I have asked for assistance and opinions on an engine build. I do not want nor have I asked for personal battles. Do you have something constructive to add? If so awesome. If not please take personal battle elsewhere. I would appreciate it and it would allow me to plan this build without having to read through needless posts.
Thank you
Jeff, since Wayne is not willing to offer a sincere apology or explanation, I'll apologize to you for his once again rude and uncalled for interruption. His posts are interruptive and uncalled for.

firel7 I'm sorry for this, I hate being accused of something I didn't do.
Wayne, two posts and you are wanting us to believe that you are the "real summerfun"?

You should be ashamed of yourself for:
having as many alias names as you've used.
being banned so many times.
and for showing all of us just who you really are.


Please refrain from posting to threads whereby you have zero to contribute.

I have asked the administration to delete this and your previous posts.


.
 
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"""""The factory cam for the 350 is bigger than the one you have chosen.
Actually I know the lift on the factory cam is lower. .2783 intake and .2874 exhaust. That is valve lift per the merc. manual. That is dismal but I am glad I had to search it out so the factory cam will not be going back in. If you have information otherwise or a way to identify one of the 2 cams I have I would really appreciate it.""""


The 1993-1997 350 cam had a lift of Int 394 ex 404


1998-2001 shows
Rocker Arm Ratio 1.50 to 1
Intake 0.2744-.2783 (6.97-7.07)
Valve Lift
Exhaust 0.2834-.2874 (7.20-7.30)

I can not believe this is a accurate total lift. I don't see that much less lift in a cam would give the power advertised. I has to be bigger!!. I think the number represents a different calculation as previous years

Maybe someone can confirm this data......or how they came up with these low lift numbers........It would not be the first misprint!!

Regardless, a 383 needs more cam and more fuel. There is no reason a cam like the one I posted the link to would be a better performance cam.
Although it was just a suggestion of a bigger cam. I am not saying to stuff a monster cam in your motor. Not at all. Just one that will take advantage of what you are trying to do.

You are not building a stock replacement so I think your cam should be a bit more aggressive.


The heads if they are capable of 480 lift max which is most likely a 20 % under rating in my opinion and you are concerned about this then I would shoot for a cam in the low to mid 400 lift range. Again look at some of the 383 builds, what cams are they using?

Here are some build specs, all be it automotive type builds but look at the cam specs......this is what you should be targeting. Not specifically but something in a more respectable range for you needs.



http://www.chevrolet.com/performance/crate-engines/small-block-zz-383.html

http://www.blueprintengines.com/index.php/gm-383-bp3834ctc1

http://www.jegs.com/i/Edelbrock/350/2209/10002/-1

Well The final choice is up to you.........I think you should be shooting for a 400 lift cam and appropriate duration to get the most out of this motor.

Also I have a feeling the advertised spec from the manual may well be showing duration and not lift......a typo.....
 
I do build and have built many SBCs, for both Street and Marine.
When it comes to camshaft profile, I turn to the experts who work for the major camshaft manufacturing companies. They are best equipped to make a suggestion based on their years of experience and in house engineering knowledge.

With the knowledge of Jeff's 6.3L specs, and with the knowledge of this engine being for a marine cruiser application, these guys will know exactly what to recommend!



.
 
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As far as your ignition.

The manual says you have a thunderbolt V
Below is copy and paste from the manual.

If I read it correctly including the timing graph which I think you posted is the same one from this manual,you should be OK to use this.

Carbed motors use a 10* BTDC initial setting (initial is set with a jumper used to make timing module go into base mode) and the potential of 32* +/- for total max (full advance with initial added)

It appears that this ignition has it's own way of controlling timing........."Mean Best Timing"

I can not speak to its ability to give you what you are looking for BUT no reason not to start with it.

Of course there is also a KNOCK control module and a KNOCK sensor if present on the original motor, you need to reinstall if using this ignition.

If this does not work out there are several after market marine distributors that will use the factory coil and have tunable timing capabilities.
Approximate cost of about $300.........+/-

Carbureted Engines - Thunderbolt V Ignition
Spark Control Features
IDLE SPEED SPARK CONTROL
The Ignition Module controls ignition timing to maintain a calibrated idle speed by making
small spark advance adjustments. This feature is only active between 400-700 rpm.

ACCELERATION SPARK ADVANCE
When accelerating, the Ignition Module may add more spark advance to the “Base Spark
Timing Curve.” The amount of spark advance added depends on how fast rpm increases.
This feature is also active between 1200-4000 rpm. Within this range, the module can add
approximately 10 degrees of spark advance to the base spark timing curve.

MEAN-BEST-TIMING (MBT) SPARK ADVANCE
During light load cruising, the Ignition Module maintains optimal ignition timing by making
small spark advance adjustments. At a given rpm, the module will add a small amount of
advance and wait to see if there is an rpm change. If rpm increases, it will increase timing
more. The module will continue to advance timing until it no longer gets an increase in rpm.
Conversely, if it senses an rpm drop, it will start to retard some of the spark timing. Between
1200-4000 rpm the Ignition Module can add approximately 10-15 degrees of spark advance
to the base spark timing curve.
NOTE: The Audio Warning System is also connected into the Ignition Module circuit. If the
audio warning system becomes activated by the closing of one of the audio warning system
switches, the MBT feature is deactivated.

OVER-SPEED CONTROL
The Ignition Module will prevent the engine speed from exceeding a preset limit by stopping
the spark. The over-speed limit is set slightly higher than the top end of the rpm range. For
example, if the recommended range is 4600-5000 rpm, the over-speed limit would be set
at 5100 rpm. When rpm reaches this limit, spark is turned-off until engine rpm drops down
to a RESET rpm, which would be approximately 4750 rpm for this example. At this point,
spark comes back on.


KNOCK RETARD SPARK CONTROL
The knock control feature helps provide protection from harmful detonation. Knock control
is handled by the Knock Control Module. This module receives a signal from a sensor that
is mounted on the engine block. The Knock Control Module works in conjunction with the
Ignition Module to retard the timing if spark knock is present.
Circuit Description
Refer to the circuit wiring diagram on the following page for reference to this circuit description.

IGNITION CONTROL MODULE
• The Ignition Module receives its power (+) through the PUR wire “9.”
• Ignition Module ground (–) is accomplished through the BLK wire “10.”
• There is also a Case Ground (–) wire “12” that is connected to one of the Ignition
Module attaching screws.
• The 12 volt signal from the Ignition Module to the distributor is carried through the
WHT/RED wire “8,” to the distributor sensor and back to the Ignition Module through
the WHT/GRN wire “7.”
• The tachometer signal is carried to the instrument panel through the GRY wire “11.”
• The PUR/WHT wire “3” carries the signal from the Knock Control Module to the Ignition
Control Module.
• There are two BLK wires “5” that have bullet connectors. This circuit is reserved for
future options. On current models, the two BLK wires must be connected for the system
to function properly.
• The TAN/BLU wire “6” carries a signal from the Audio Warning Circuit to the Ignition
Module.

KNOCK CONTROL MODULE
• The Knock Control Module receives it’s power (+) from the PUR wire “4.”
• Knock Module ground (–) is accomplished through the BLK wire “2.”
• The PUR/WHT wire “3” carries the signal from the Knock Control Module to the Ignition
Control Module.
• The BLU wire “1” carries the signal from the Knock Sensor to the Knock Module.

IGNITION CONTROL SYSTEM TIMING LEAD
The ignition control system has a lead with bullet connector “11” that is connected into the
PUR/WHT wire “3.” This lead is used for performing the following tests and procedures:
• Setting Base Ignition Timing
• Setting Engine Idle Speed
• Setting Idle Mixture
• Testing Knock Control Circuit
This lead, when connected to an engine ground (–), locks the Ignition Control Module into
the Base Timing Mode.
 
When Wayne Strong, Summer Fun, whatever-his-name-is-today posts... If folks would simply please report any thread we will remove and ban as soon as we can. Please refrain from engaging in any sort of conversation, don't chastise or complain or respond in any way. If we all absolutely ignore him maybe he will get bored. He obviously is looking for interaction so let's not give it too him. Considering how many times he has done the same thing you have to come to the conclusion that there some sort of problem with this man. He has proven over and over that he's not logical or rational. Report and ignore.

Blocking his IP address to prevent him rejoining would be detrimental to all the other users in the Ithaca Comcast service area. Manually approving all new joins it too much work and would slow things down for everyone.

Sorry for the hassle with this guy that keeps cropping up. He's a classic internet troll. -James @ MarineEngine.com
 
Jack, Jeff will need an ignition system that has not been designed around the General Motors full dished piston.


Well he has the Merc distributor, He has the coil.

He could go backwards in timing modules and eliminate the knock control and the "mean best timing" module.

A earlier Thunderbolt V with NO knock sensor or module piggy backed to the timing module would work out ok...

That would be like the earlier thunderbolt IV... Just a straight forward timing program.


This is something I have no real time experience with.. SO he may just want to bite the bullet and purchase a good stand alone distributor that he can custom tune.

I typically only play with OEM.........I don't like to create or modify others motors or ignition systems especially when they are try to maintain a small budget as it comes with lots of tuning and I don't have time to mess with tuning. I would rather be out on my own boat drinking!
 
Wayne, let's assume for the moment that the previous ill mannered, distempered, disruptive, misinformed, angry, non-mechanical minded person with no real forum nor English language skills, was NOT you!
I would have to then say that this most recent post of YOURS is much of the same style and displays much of the same attitude!
How then is that explained?

And then to threaten James????? Sheesh!

It must be terrible to live a life as such.
Seek help!



.
 
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Wayne, let's assume for the moment that the previous ill mannered, distempered, disruptive, misinformed, angry, non-mechanical minded person with no real forum nor English language skills, was NOT you!
I would have to then say that this most recent post of YOURS is much of the same style and displays much of the same attitude!
How then is that explained?

And then to threaten James????? Sheesh!

It must be terrible to live a life as such.
Seek help!



.

If folks would simply please report any thread we will remove and ban as soon as we can. Please refrain from engaging in any sort of conversation, don't chastise or complain or respond in any way. If we all absolutely ignore him maybe he will get bored. He obviously is looking for interaction so let's not give it too him. Considering how many times he has done the same thing you have to come to the conclusion that there some sort of problem with this man. He has proven over and over that he's not logical or rational. Report and ignore.


Some good sound advise.
 
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