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1969 Crusader Challenger 250

jayadam63

New member
I'm the proud owner of a (new to me) 1969 Century Buccaneer with a 1969 Crusader Challenger 250 engine. It's 100% original except it has been converted to electronic ignition. One owner 45 year old boat / engine from Ohio and never in salt.

I have a bunch of simple questions --

1) What Chevy is this? Is it a 327, 350, ???

2) It's raw water cooled. I'm converting it to FWC because I live in a high-salt area. I've started collecting the parts. It doesn't have the return fittings on the manifolds nor does it have the fittings on the elbows / risers. I've received the cooling wedge plates already so that takes care of that. New elbows are in the works too. The fittings on the elbows are 3/4 npt to 1" barb. I noticed from schematics they're smaller than the coolant side of 1" npt & 1 1/4 barb.

3) I've got my blockoff plates (2) and gaskets (6). I'll need the fittings 3/4 to 1" for the elbows, extended studs for the elbows to go through the coolant wedge, a bunch of 1 1/4" marine water hose, some 1" marine water hose, heat exchanger bracket (to go to the bell housing), heat exchanger (97433) with cap and endcaps, etc...

4) I have to block off the returns to the thermostat housing. One for the raw water intake (1 1/4" and the other for the recirc pump 1 3/4"). The plug for the 1 1/4" fitting on the thermostat housing is available. The 1 3/4" plug is nowhere to be found. Ideas for a solution?

Here's a schematic:

https://bpi.ebasicpower.com/mm5/apps/master/crusader/index.php?MODEL=13&IMAGE=80

Here are some pics:


20140710_151614.jpg
CAM00153.jpg

CAM00141.jpg

wedge.jpg

CAM00154.jpg

I'm excited about this project and wanted to post. If anyone has some guidance too, I'm all ears!!!

Thanks guys!

-Jay
 
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Its a small block...and (going off memory) a 350...but it really doesn't matter.

Its 45 years old...and is likely to be ready for some reconditioning...may just want to "save it" and get another engine block to build from...I'm not saying you can't revamp it...just trying to be realistic.

I would NOT be inclined to make use of 45 year old exhaust elbows...manifolds may be ok if you dip them and pressure test shows them ok...raw water offers too much opportunity for surprises...

On the conversion, just order the FWC version of the t-stat housing...the only other option is rubber caps to block off the larger hose nipples...unless you want to machine the castings...
 
Thanks MakoMark for the reply.

My first inclination is to just use it and trash it in saltwater, flushing it and hoping to get a few years. But when I got the history, one owner, used 4 months a year on a like in Ohio, winterized by draining block and manifolds every year, 1100 hours total, oil changes, etc.... He even took the raw water pump inside during the winter so he would have a project to do during the downtime (change impeller and lube it). All this made me reconsider and consider the crazy notion of slapping some hardware on it and giving it a go. If I can get by without having to get new Manifolds, I'm at around $1,100. This would include new elbows, new coolant return plates, new hoses all the way around, brand new heat exchanger, etc.... If I have to do manifolds too -- then I'm up to $1,500 + / -. Thing is -- If the block is a problem in the future -- all these parts will go with a replacement SB Chevy -- That was my logic anyway. I hope I get lucky.

YES -- I'm going to discard the risers / elbows regardless because they don't have the raw water fittings so I couldn't use them anyway. I was going to pull them and have a look at the passages on the manifolds. I'm going to HOPE they are nicer than expected. If not -- I'll be getting a new set of those. I'll know more when I pull the risers this weekend. If it's a disaster in those passages (like my center risers on my RWC Shamrock would get every 4 years in the salt) then I'm going to re-think the whole thing.

I have resisted putting this boat in the water until I made a call one way or the other on all this. Once it goes in salt -- that's it.

Regarding the thermostat 1 1/4" and 1 3/4" openings -- It's CRAZY that I can find the 1 1/4" Crusader part

http://www.perfprotech.com/1-14-id-rubber-cap-crusader-pn-97311-cru97311-cru97311/product/375939

But not the 1 3/4" part anywhere. :(

I might just go with the FWC version of the t-stat housing...

Appreciate the thoughts. Let me know if you think I'm on the right track. Pictures of the manifold passages will be forthcoming.

-Jay
 
Got my answer. The Century Boat Club was able to provide me with the "Production Record" for this boat. Turns out it is a Chevy 327.

Crusader couldn't even tell me what the block was. They have a log book of the engine sale to Crusader in the late fall of 1968 but they didn't know what the block was.

Fascinating. :)
 
Hate to tinkle on your parade, but it's very hazardous converting an old rusty motor to FWCooling. The rust tends to plug the exchanger, causing massive overheating. Still, it HS been done. Good luck.

Jeff
 
"Rusty Old Motor" has been in fresh water all it's life. You might be 100% correct -- I'll know more when I open the risers and look at the passages. I'm throwing away the risers regardless. If the passages are bad, I'll bail on the notion of converting to FWC. If they are good, I'll probably investigate the manifolds further and see if they can be dipped to remove any scale and put into service. If not, I'll go with a complete manifold and riser package. I appreciate your thoughts though!

-Jay
 
Understood. If the block had been exposed to saltwater, I wouldn't even entertain the notion of converting it.

This engine was used in fresh water 4 months out of the year and then drained for layup for the other 8 in a cold weather climate. I know there are no guarantees but if you're 100% sure it's a hopeless enterprise to close off the cooling system on this engine, I appreciate your opinion.

I was being a little hopeful. My alternative, of course, is to just use the engine with raw water cooling in the salt and get whatever service I can out of it.

-Jay
 
IMO, If it was used in fresh water primarily, then a mix of antifreeze, & water should clean, & help preserve it. I would try to pack it with a baking soda, & water mix, let it sit a day, or whatever, then flush it to see what you've got first? That might help you determine what you want to do. Even if you had to get a new engine, closed cooling would be the best thing for it.
 
Thanks Mike. Can I just put the baking soda in a bucket of water with the hose & raw water pickup and run the engine (how I'm running it now on the trailer) and then shut it down and let it sit? If so, how much baking soda in the bucket? If on the restart the next day, what should I look for coming out of the exhaust?

Thanks.

P.S. I know the first time I run it in salt w/o trying to convert the engine it's "game-over" for the notion of converting it. I just want to be 100% sure it's a hopeless enterprise converting this to FWC before giving up on it. :)
 
P.S. I know the first time I run it in salt w/o trying to convert the engine it's "game-over" for the notion of converting it. I just want to be 100% sure it's a hopeless enterprise converting this to FWC before giving up on it. :)[/QUOTE]

It's not hopeless. It's just IMO not cost effective. It's got 1100 hours on it & it's old. I would just run it. I am a big fan of FWC. I have also had boats raw water cooled that ran for 20 years. New complete inboard engines are a bargain compared to buying lots of parts for an old engine. Put the $ you would spend on this project in the new motor (or new boat)fund buy a towing card and use your boat.
Lou
 
Thanks for your thoughts, Lou. I'm strongly considering following your advice and just flushing this and hoping for the best.

-Jay
 
Just my two cents but i doubt the baking soda will have much impact....the chemistry (pH) doesn't support it...

You'll likely benefit the most from an acidic compound...many of us use muriatic acid for cleaning cooling system components....
 
Thanks Mark.

I had read about someone who successfully converted a very old engine to FWC first by flushing the block with a muratic acid solution, then replacing the manifolds and risers (they went with a full system) and then adding the components.

I've also read about others who have converted older engines and prepared themselves by pulling the heat exchanger at first every couple months and flushing it and the system and after about the 2nd or 3rd time, the coolant color / characteristics seemed to stabilize.

The issue is whether it's worth the effort it and whether it would be successful. I was hoping because the engine was never in salt, that I would have an easy go of it. Apparently from the posts here -- maybe not.

-Jay
 
Hate to tinkle on your parade, but it's very hazardous converting an old rusty motor to FWCooling. The rust tends to plug the exchanger, causing massive overheating. Still, it HS been done. Good luck.

Jeff
Jeff is correct!
Even while having been in fresh water only, but for 45 years, you will have to deal with rust scale dislodging and entering the heat exchanger tube bundle.
It can be done, but I'd caution you in that you'll want to keep a close eye on the E/G side of tube bundle.
This side of the tube bundle is not easily accessible by average Joe.

For those doing this, I'd advise them to remove the H/E after XX hours, shake it up with hot soapy water in it, and dump the contents into a clean white 5 gallon bucket, and take a very close look at it.
I'd repeat this after another XX hours.
When you no longer see any rust scale.... you may be OK.


You could also do a "half" system, leaving the exhaust system out of the closed cooling loop.


.
 
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Jay, I was just speculating about the baking soda. I used to use it in the cooling system of my car when doing a good flush. It was a popular thing people did in the past, and it got the cooling system squeaky clean! I would think one box, or one large box, for a large system like a boat, would help do the trick. I've lately heard of using vinegar, but I have no experience using this? Nor would I know how much to use? Maybe you can google this?

IMO, an antifreeze mix would help preserve the condition of your system.
 
Jeff is correct!
Even while having been in fresh water only, but for 45 years, you will have to deal with rust scale dislodging and entering the heat exchanger tube bundle.
It can be done, but I'd caution you in that you'll want to keep a close eye on the E/G side of tube bundle.
This side of the tube bundle is not easily accessible by average Joe.

For those doing this, I'd advise them to remove the H/E after XX hours, shake it up with hot soapy water in it, and dump the contents into a clean white 5 gallon bucket, and take a very close look at it.
I'd repeat this after another XX hours.
When you no longer see any rust scale.... you may be OK.


You could also do a "half" system, leaving the exhaust system out of the closed cooling loop.

P.S. I know the first time I run it in salt w/o trying to convert the engine it's "game-over" for the notion of converting it. I just want to be 100% sure it's a hopeless enterprise converting this to FWC before giving up on it. :)

Jay, I was just speculating about the baking soda. I used to use it in the cooling system of my car when doing a good flush. It was a popular thing people did in the past, and it got the cooling system squeaky clean! I would think one box, or one large box, for a large system like a boat, would help do the trick. I've lately heard of using vinegar, but I have no experience using this? Nor would I know how much to use? Maybe you can google this?

IMO, an antifreeze mix would help preserve the condition of your system.

I'm greatful for all the replies. I think the bottom line & my takeaway is:

1) It's expensive.
2) It's do able but there might be heartache with clogging of the heat exchanger over and over and it might be difficult to clear.
3) It will take close monitoring so as to not to run it in an over heating condition during the shakedown period.
4) It will require several flushing / cleaning periods shortly after closing off the system.
5) The engine is 45 years old and has 1100 well-cared for lake hours. But it is still 45 years old.

and ultimately....

6) It's much less expensive to change the hoses, clean it, change the oil, tune it, change the belts and use it in saltwater "as-is" and just flush it after every use rather than trying to "preserve" it.

Do I have it about right? More thoughts?

Is #6 above the right way to go and just don't look back?

Thanks again, guys!!!

-Jay
 
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