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Crusader 350 xli random stalling

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cemcguckin

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I have a 1999 crusader 350 XLI that started bitching last season. While pressing the throttles up on plane around 2500 RPM the port engine stalled. Restarted the engine and no problems the rest of the day. When i got back to the dock I started them both back up and flushed the motors, about 5 minutes later I noted the port engine was off. It seemed like a touch and go problem, was running up on plane about 3500 RPM 10 miles into the trip the engine suddenly stalls. Fired right back up and no issues.

This year port is really hard starting. I changed the fuel filter element and drained the fuel water separator, some water and really dirty, took about 3 tries and she fired right back up and stayed on, I didn't run her just sat at the dock. I tried to start her back up about 4 hours later and she was really hard to start again, and stalled a few times. Im thinking it's my fuel pump (CRU pier burg 47039) but it's over $300 bucks for a new one. Could it be my injectors or throttle body clogged? Alternator? No other sputtering, bogging or anything like that it's just shutting off randomly. I did notice that it is running a little rough in addition but nothing drastic.

Here is my fuel system http://www.marineparts.com/mpf/mpf63.aspx

Anyone else have the issue?

Thanks!
 
Welcome to ME.com...

It could be any number of items...the best course of action is a good diagnosis vs a random select this part and swap it out approach...and if you don't already do it, start a logbook with details...it will help in the future.

You will find that the GM TBI system has been orphaned...they need good clean fuel and at the appropriate pressure to perform correctly. Unfortunately, checking the fuel pressure on these is a PITA as there's no schrader valve like on a MPI setup.

Another set of items to have spare for are Relays and oil pressure safety switch...
 
The suddenness and the self healing make it sound (to me) more like ignition problems than fuel, but at this point you can't rule out anything. Since you seem handy, it is always better to swap parts between engines and see if you can move the problem rather than just hope you replace the right part. Parts would include such things as the ignition module, the coil, the distributer cap, and even the fuel system components if you continue to suspect that. As a bonus, electrical issues sometimes heal in the swap if the problem was corroded or loose connections. If the hard starting returns I find a shot of starting fluid will often immediately tell if the issue is ignition or fuel. And the starting issue could be a problem entirely different than the shut off issue. Good Luck.
 
Thanks Guys. Here are my next steps:

1. A little starting fluid in the vacuum line to rule out ignition. Well, rule out 80% ignition as it could be intermittent.
2. disconnect screen filter and clean
3. while screen filter is off, connect a vacuum tester to the suction side of the pump and test.
4. remove 4th plug from fuel water separator head, install pressure gage and test
5. If above is good, clean throttle body and injectors. This should be done anyway
6. if all above checks out, back to ignition and change coil and moduel.
7. If none of the above works, someone gets a silverton 312 cheap.

One last thing, I have this stupid Pierburg pump that I cannot, for the life of me, find the outlet pressure this pump should be operating at. The book says 5 PSI at 1800 RPM but that can't be right, I think that is the suction side pressure.

Thanks All!
 
cemcguckin said:
Thanks Guys. Here are my next steps:


One last thing, I have this stupid Pierburg pump that I cannot, for the life of me, find the outlet pressure this pump should be operating at. The book says 5 PSI at 1800 RPM but that can't be right, I think that is the suction side pressure.

Thanks All!
Click to expand...

I have the single return style Pierburg pump as well. I replaced them this year and I want to say they were like 43 PSI pumps and my system runs at 18-20 PSI with the rest of the pressure returning to the tank with the FPR. If you have fuel pressure gauge hooked up you can pinch off the return line briefly and watch gauge at idle. It will shoot up close to what the pump is rated at.

Something that is not in the book on the TBI systems is the Fuel pressure regulator, sits under injector meter cover. I had some weird issues with my 454XLI and after 6 months of trouble shooting finally traced it to that FPR. There is a little spring and rubber diaphragm in there that can rust and break. My spring was broken in three places and fuel pressure was just bypassing to the return line.

Check your Fuel pressure if you haven't already. I think the 350's went to a higher fuel pressure after a certain year.
 
Mccoy38, thanks. I ordered the new pump, got the old one out, hooked it up to a battery and it worked fine. I replaced the pump anyway. We checked voltage to the pump, that was good. Took off the fuel lines at the fuel water separator and cranked the engine, no fuel. Took off the lines BEFORE the pump, bone dry. I did not take off the screen and check for a clog but i am not getting ANYTHING. Could I have a 100% blockage somewhere, is that possible to not get any kind of fuel flow? The tank? Anti siphon valve? sucking air, if so how to test? As I was getting ready to leave for the week I fired up the starboard engine, fired right up, but then stalled about 5 minuets later. Turned the key and fired right up again and stayed on. This is making me think its a restriction somewhere inside of the fuel tank as it is now starting to happen to my starboard motor. I have a return style system and all 4 lines (2 supply and 2 return) connect to the tank at the same area.

I have eliminated:
Fuel water separator, replaced drop in element
Relays, pump is turning on and she fires up on a little starting fluid.
Electrical, pump is getting constant 12 volts and is turning on.
I did install the pump correctly so it is not reversed.
I searched for a fuel pressure regulator but I do not have one on my engines

I JUST CAN NOT GET ANY FUEL TO FLOW!
 
cemcguckin said:
Mccoy38, thanks. I ordered the new pump, got the old one out, hooked it up to a battery and it worked fine. I replaced the pump anyway. We checked voltage to the pump, that was good. Took off the fuel lines at the fuel water separator and cranked the engine, no fuel. Took off the lines BEFORE the pump, bone dry. I did not take off the screen and check for a clog but i am not getting ANYTHING. Could I have a 100% blockage somewhere, is that possible to not get any kind of fuel flow? The tank? Anti siphon valve? sucking air, if so how to test? As I was getting ready to leave for the week I fired up the starboard engine, fired right up, but then stalled about 5 minuets later. Turned the key and fired right up again and stayed on. This is making me think its a restriction somewhere inside of the fuel tank as it is now starting to happen to my starboard motor. I have a return style system and all 4 lines (2 supply and 2 return) connect to the tank at the same area.

I have eliminated:
Fuel water separator, replaced drop in element
Relays, pump is turning on and she fires up on a little starting fluid.
Electrical, pump is getting constant 12 volts and is turning on.
I did install the pump correctly so it is not reversed.
I searched for a fuel pressure regulator but I do not have one on my engines

I JUST CAN NOT GET ANY FUEL TO FLOW!
Click to expand...


Sounds like a anti anti siphon valve if it's dry before fuel pump. Pull fuel line off tank supply fitting and remove that fitting, there will be a spring and a ball in, see if it's stuck or has anything in it. Get a remote tank and see if it primes and you get fuel flowing. If return is blocked it won't prime. Injectors could also be totally clogged but you would still have fuel pressure.

If you have TBI you have a fuel pressure regulator. You have to remove the top fuel meter cover that holds the two injectors in, it's underneath it. Don't remove unless you have a spare gasket kit.
 
Ok sports fans, this one is a P.I.A!!!!! Here is what we did today:

1. removed anti siphon valve, was working fine. Installed new
2. cleaned primary filter screen
3. switched fuel lines at the tank and fired up the starboard motor. Ran for 1/2 hour fine so i ruled out a tank pickup issue
4. Changed battery, 1000 CCA
5. changed fuel pump relay and map sensor.
6. cleaned terminals at the breaker.
7. Blew out fuel lines
8. checked voltage coming off fuel pump. 6 volts when cranking and nothing when key is cycled. AH HAAAAAAA
9. decided to listen to the starboard fuel pump kick in, cycled a few times and i defiantly heard it. Then tried the port, magically it kicked on. we cycled it a few times and tried to start, nothing
10. fuel pump back to getting 6 volts. intermidtent fuel pump kicking on when cycling, i did receive a pressure reading of 10 psi when it was working the 6 times out of the 30 cycles.

The system is charged with fuel but the pump is in and out getting 6 volts, then 11 volts. Engine sounds like its really struggling when cranking and everything is dimming but its literally a brand new battery. Why am I getting a voltage drop? Also, I did find a little oil in my bilge. The engine is full of fresh fuel and I didn't see anything coming from my V drive, I think that is hydraulic anyway. Would an oil pressure sender be the culprit? BAD ECM? I traced the red wire back to the breaker and it's spliced in with a pink wire. Red goes to a plug that is not plugged into anything. I tested this plug and i am getting the same voltage there that I am at the pump. Here it is file:///Users/juliaandcolin/Pictures/iPhoto%20Library/Previews/2014/07/24/20140724-220535/XRZl2sf%25TR2S+OPx3n8Fhg/IMG_1131.jpg
 
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The battery may be new but is it good? If the voltage is fluctuating when it is running I would think you might have an issue with your altenator.
 
I had an in-line fuel filter so plugged up, not a drop of fuel would flow--even at full pump pressure. It happens.

Jeff
 
Try switching ecms port to star and see what happens or if problem follows. I lost a ECM last year. Really sucked figuring out what the issue was.

Sounds like you also changed fuel pump relay which would be next guess. Check all grounds and wire terminals. Check fuse block terminals. The fuel pump power is supplied through ECM if I'm not mistaken.

May also check your key switch as well. If pump voltage drops when key on 3 second fuel pump run then it may be in the key switch.
 
I hope everyone is ready for this......

Today -
Pulled ECM and placed it on the starboard motor. Engine fired right up, ECM ruled out
Re-installed ECM on port motor
tested voltage at breaker - 12 volts
Tested voltage at fuel pump test plug - 12 volts
Placed meter in a spot where i could see from bridge, cycled key, 12 volts. turned the engine and BAM fires up. WTF!!!!!!!!!????!?!?
let the motor run for 30 minutes then turned it off. Cranked the ignition, it fired up then died. Turned again, cranked for about 5 seconds then fires up. Fired up on 1/2 crank 4 more times.
Went to the store to grab a new ignition key switch, i was gone about 1/2 hour. Got back to the boat and turned the engine with the old ignition, NOTHING, back to getting 6 volts to the fuel pump.
Installed new key switch, still 6 volts and would not start.
Crawled around trying to find oil pressure switch, found the sender but for the life of me could not find the switch. Moved wires, made sure ECM was connected. Engine was sitting for 2 hours at this point.
Decided to lick my wounds and call it a day.
As i'm closing up the boat I decided to give her one last try. Thats SOB fires right up!!!!

I am thinking that I either have a loose wire somewhere or my battery is grounding out somewhere. When my meter reads 6 volts the motor cranks very very very very slow. 12 volts that Mother fires up, a little drag on the starter but it fires up pretty quick.

Thanks everyone for your advice thus far. I am 100% Irish and I anticipate these things but this one is testing my resolve.... Anyone know a good marine electrician in the Wildwood NJ area? As you can see I don't give up easily but my forehead is starting to hurt from beating it against the boat.
 
I've been following this and I feel for you. I see you replaced the battery so I suspect the terminal connections are good there. And you said you cleaned the terminals at the breaker. Did you clean the ground connection on the engine block? Are you sure all the connections are tight? I know I've tightened up a connection finger-tight and then got distracted and forgot to tighten it with a wrench.

In any case, good luck.
Dan
 
cemcguckin said:
I hope everyone is ready for this......

Today -
Pulled ECM and placed it on the starboard motor. Engine fired right up, ECM ruled out
Re-installed ECM on port motor
tested voltage at breaker - 12 volts
Tested voltage at fuel pump test plug - 12 volts
Placed meter in a spot where i could see from bridge, cycled key, 12 volts. turned the engine and BAM fires up. WTF!!!!!!!!!????!?!?
let the motor run for 30 minutes then turned it off. Cranked the ignition, it fired up then died. Turned again, cranked for about 5 seconds then fires up. Fired up on 1/2 crank 4 more times.
Went to the store to grab a new ignition key switch, i was gone about 1/2 hour. Got back to the boat and turned the engine with the old ignition, NOTHING, back to getting 6 volts to the fuel pump.
Installed new key switch, still 6 volts and would not start.
Crawled around trying to find oil pressure switch, found the sender but for the life of me could not find the switch. Moved wires, made sure ECM was connected. Engine was sitting for 2 hours at this point.
Decided to lick my wounds and call it a day.
As i'm closing up the boat I decided to give her one last try. Thats SOB fires right up!!!!

I am thinking that I either have a loose wire somewhere or my battery is grounding out somewhere. When my meter reads 6 volts the motor cranks very very very very slow. 12 volts that Mother fires up, a little drag on the starter but it fires up pretty quick.

Thanks everyone for your advice thus far. I am 100% Irish and I anticipate these things but this one is testing my resolve.... Anyone know a good marine electrician in the Wildwood NJ area? As you can see I don't give up easily but my forehead is starting to hurt from beating it against the boat.
Click to expand...

I feel for you as well. Chasing intermittent electrical stuff can be maddening. At least you have twins and you can start to narrow down some things.

Are you getting the key on alarms? My failed ECM did some weird stuff similar to what you are saying. It was running fine one day. Next day my key on alarms went away and it would just crank but not fire off, no fuel pump at all. After removing, cleaning & chasing every $^#&*&$ wire on the thing, I Sent ECM out to be tested and they found nothing wrong with it. Plugged it back in when I got it back and it worked for about 4-5 starts, left boat for a night, then went back to no key alarm and just turning over again. Replaced ECM and it all went away. Sounds like you have ruled that out though if you switched the ECMs to each engine. However you did say it fired right up. Was this a better result than prior? If so you may be getting close narrowing it down.

Have you tried hooking up a scan tool to see if any codes are stored? These are handy to be able to see voltage loss at sensors at other locations as well. Getting 6 volts sometimes and 12 volts other times is kind of odd and I personally have not ran across that one. May want to pull that battery selector switch and see what your wires look like behind there. Also check your starter wires and make sure they are not broken and laying on metal or something. Something is cutting out your 12v power if you're seeing only 6v to the fuel pump sometimes. That fuel pump relay even though you might have replaced it could be bad, its just a normally open or closed relay and if its not latching right for what ever reason it may be your weak link. It's inside the black box with the breaker buttons by oil fill tube. If you have same set up. Mine also has a starter relay back by the distributor area on top of the flywheel housing but I think this is just for the crank signal to go to starter but with weak starter symptoms this could be another possibility. You will find it just keep at it. Pull the master 8 pin plug to the main wire harness on the engine a few times in a row to make sure connections are solid and clean. If you can get your hands on the wire diagram for that engine it will make more sense to the flow of the wires but it sounds like you just have something loose or split. Check fuel pump wires, they are tiny, I had one dangling by a hair on the connector where it was about to break one time that about drove me mad trying to find.
 
how old is the fuel pump relay?

the oil pressure switch is another item to check...

it's not that hard to connect a volt meter to the fuel pump to see what's going on...the biggest headache with intermittents is getting them to happen.
 
makomark said:
how old is the fuel pump relay?

the oil pressure switch is another item to check...

it's not that hard to connect a volt meter to the fuel pump to see what's going on...the biggest headache with intermittents is getting them to happen.
Click to expand...
I had same problem with my crusader 350 sportpaks. Turned out to be the oil pressure fuel pump interlock switch.
 
cemcguckin said:
I have a 1999 crusader 350 XLI that started bitching last season. While pressing the throttles up on plane around 2500 RPM the port engine stalled. Restarted the engine and no problems the rest of the day. When i got back to the dock I started them both back up and flushed the motors, about 5 minutes later I noted the port engine was off. It seemed like a touch and go problem, was running up on plane about 3500 RPM 10 miles into the trip the engine suddenly stalls. Fired right back up and no issues.

This year port is really hard starting. I changed the fuel filter element and drained the fuel water separator, some water and really dirty, took about 3 tries and she fired right back up and stayed on, I didn't run her just sat at the dock. I tried to start her back up about 4 hours later and she was really hard to start again, and stalled a few times. Im thinking it's my fuel pump (CRU pier burg 47039) but it's over $300 bucks for a new one. Could it be my injectors or throttle body clogged? Alternator? No other sputtering, bogging or anything like that it's just shutting off randomly. I did notice that it is running a little rough in addition but nothing drastic.

Here is my fuel system http://www.marineparts.com/mpf/mpf63.aspx

Anyone else have the issue?

Thanks!
Click to expand...
 
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