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Water in bellows - AQ130C/270

boatdoc55 said:
Sure, if there's no groove or rough surface on the seal surface. If you want to save yourself from future greif I would knock the DBB out of the clamp ring and change out the oring, clean up the corrosion between the aluminum and steel. There will be shims there, remember?
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Thanks, got it pressed out. Cleaning up right now.

I ran across a few threads that mentioned added a bit of red permatex or red loctite on the main drive seal? Of course I can't find the threads now...
 
When putting back together use grease on the o rings. Sure you could use a little lock tight if you want, I never have. The rubber encased seal will seal itself.
 
Grease may eventually wash out. We've had trouble with this over the years, especially in ocean water.
Get your hands on some QuickSilver "Perfect Seal". Use it liberally at the O-rings and lightly for the NEW seal installation.

DO NOT forget that the four BB clamping collar cap screws are "Wet Area" threads on this transmission.
If you want advice as to how to better seal these, post back!

8point1 said:
Okay thanks, got it out after a few taps.


Here is the shaft with shims and I'm assuming the 'main drive washer' that you guys said usually corrodes, causing seal failure.
That is correct, but not always!
As said, it depends on how long the area was wet, and with what... River/Lake... or Salt water.

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Can I get away with just replacing the seal, polishing the washer,
Definitely replace the seal.
As for the washer..... only if the polishing is done in a completely radial fashion.
If you create any spiral pattern in the polishing attempts, it may cause the new seal lip to whick oil out.

You can safely remove up to .006" from the OD and yet the NEW seal will work just fine.
New seal squeeze will be approx .030"+


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Rick, WAYYYYY back at AQ school I was told not to use perfect seal or Aviation seal, I think they're the same, on the o rings. Just good ol' blue wheel bearing grease. I guess if you've been using perfect seal all these years and I've been doing the grease we both learned something new. I've torn many drives down with that brown stuff everywhere and just cussed at it. The only place I do use aviation sealant is under and above the hose nipple on the beaded gasket. I've never put anything on the "blue seal". Do you remember the OEM seal being blue? Thusly me calling them "blue seal"
 
Gary, me in blue again.

boatdoc55 said:
Rick, WAYYYYY back at AQ school I was told not to use perfect seal or Aviation seal, I think they're the same, on the o rings. Just good ol' blue wheel bearing grease.
Yes, pretty much the same here. Just the good ole green wheel bearing grease.
However...................

I guess if you've been using perfect seal all these years and I've been doing the grease we both learned something new.
Once I started getting back into these drives of age, I started seeing what happens to the grease. You've certainly seen the whitish powdery looking crap.... especially on salt water boats.

I've torn many drives down with that brown stuff everywhere and just cussed at it.
Yep.... a real mess... but, no where near as much to deal with as is rust/corrosion.
Solvents, heat, scraping tools, and the ole wire wheel take care of the brown goop quickly.

The only place I do use aviation sealant is under and above the hose nipple on the beaded gasket.
The bead itself gets greased...... the upper side can be sealed to the water neck face.

And while on topic, and for those reading....... a new beaded gasket will fail shortly if the upper pivot tube bushing is wearing out. It will seal in the beginning..... but will eventually loose resiliency and then loose it's seal against the pivot tube.

I've never put anything on the "blue seal".
What is the blue seal? Eccentric piston seal?

Do you remember the OEM seal being blue?
If you're talking about the eccentric piston seal, I guess not.
I think that you've been doing these longer than I..... (24 years for me).
First gen piston seal was black, second gen brown, recent gen green and double lip, and directional!

Thusly me calling them "blue seal"
Ah!
Click to expand...

Gary, I do like your take on these. We seem to have run into similar issues over the years.

I was very happy to see the "A" and later transmissions begin to use the gasket style shims between the integral BB and the main gear case.
I've seen too many of the steel BB clamping collar cap screws (the ones that I refer as "wet area" bolts) rust up and loose the seal between the cap screw head and the aluminum shoulder at the clamping collar.


BTW.... I think that Perfect Seal is a great product. Yes... a bitch to clean up later on..... but it won't wash out, and she typically won't leak where it's used!
Great for protecting threads also... but again.... somewhat of a B to clean up.


NOTE to All: DO NOT use the automotive Never-Seez or Anti-Sieze on anything below the water line!
Great stuff, and I do use it......... but it's name changes to "Always-Seez" when/if used below the water line!

And DO NOT try to re-use any O-rings and/or gaskets!


If this threads continues much longer........ we'll need to take an Intermission! :)


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Lots more good info, thanks guys. And we haven't even got to the PDS info yet!

Yes , I'd like your guys' tips on sealing the 4 wet bolts for the bearing cap.

Stopped by NAPA looking for marine grade anti-seize, no luck. I'll have my work get me some.
 
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8point1 said:
Lots more good info, thanks guys. And we haven't even got to the PDS info yet!
The PDS bearing replacement will/should be a piece of cake!

Yes , I'd like your guys' tips on sealing the 4 wet bolts for the bearing cap.
The cap screws mentioned are the four that clamp the Bearing Box "clamping collar" to the main gear case.

If you'll notice, any small gap between the collar and main case (and there will be a very small gap), will allow water into the threaded area.
Not only into threads, but up the cap screw shank and bore and towards the cap screw heads!
At the cap screw heads, you'll notice what looks like SAE washers.
These washers seal the cap screw heads to the delicate shoulders.
While it's rather messy..... you'd best seal these with something like Perfect Seal.
Also, apply a liberal amount at the actual threads to keep as much water out as possible.

Stopped by NAPA looking for marine grade anti-seize, no luck. I'll have my work get me some.
Not necessary. I simply mentioned that as a precaution against using the auto version.
You'll do just as well with Perfect Seal or a Permatex product.
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That whiteish/powdery stuff seen on virgin AQ's was an OEM assembly lubricant that was used in the early years. It turned to powder with time. It was a whole lot easier to clean up than the brown stuff. When was the last time either one of us cracked open a virgin AQ drive. NOT!!! No question the aviation sealant is good stuff. What's nice is, one can get distracted, come back later and it's still good to go.
 
The PDS bearing replacement will/should be a piece of cake!
Click to expand...

As long as we're talking about that, I am gonna order parts. From other threads it looks like bearing (6206 , electric motor grade, SKF or KOYO), forward (35x55x8mm), aft seal (35x62x7mm) and zirk fitting to convert the cup style.

Always grease bearing cages before installing seals. Long snap ring pliers, slide hammer with visegrips welded on... this is all from other threads. Please let me know what I'm missing.
 
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8point1 said:
As long as we're talking about that, I am gonna order parts. From other threads it looks like bearing (6206 , electric motor grade, SKF or KOYO), forward (35x55x8mm), aft seal (35x62x7mm) and zirk fitting to convert the cup style.
Yes... that sounds correct!

Always grease bearing cages before installing seals.
Not exactly.
What I mean is.... once the PDS and new bearing are installed, use the grease port and fill the grease cavity until you see grease oozing from the ball cage!
Now install the AFT most seal!

Long snap ring pliers, slide hammer with visegrips welded on... this is all from other threads. Please let me know what I'm missing.
Yes.... the needle nose tips must fit and hold into the ring eyelets.

Turning the tip diameter down a bit helps them fit the eyelets.
Tweaking the tips inwards helps them hold onto the eyelets.
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One step closer. Got the gear box cleaned, fasteners wire wheeled, and all sealed back up with Volvo front seal and o-rings. Didn't do much to the front washer, just used a 3M scotchbrite pad to polish it up a bit. Kept track of all shims and made sure they got back where they needed to be. Aviation seal on the o-rings, front seal and BB bolts. New u-joints (Precision 315G).

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I was able to find PDS bearing and seals locally, around $22! NOW, I just need to find a slide hammer. My work has a nice Snap-On one, but I'm not going to weld my vise-grips onto that. Harbor Frideght has a cheap one for $20 on their website, but it wasn't in the store. Napa had one for $130!!! I know I'm a cheap a$$ but why the hell are slide hammers so damn expensive.

So once I get the PDS bearing and seals taken care of, I can throw on the new water inlet hose, new shift cable, new bellows and upper gearbox. I need to throw some zinc chromate primer on the inlet fitting I wire-wheeled and on the bare spots on the drive. Really resisting the urge to repaint (found some OEM Volvo AQ paint) but that will be a project for next year.

Damn its gonna feel good once I got all this back together! Thanks for all the advise, I owe you guys many beers.
 
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Well I got the driveshaft out, WITHOUT a slide hammer. Just clamped my visegrips on the shaft and gave it a good tug. Much to my surprise it came right out, about knocked myself on my back! Gotta love a freshwater boat. Also got the shift cable out, had to be original as well. The PDS bearing was shot, glad I'm taking the time to replace it.

Just need to go back to work to press the new PDS bearing on and reinstall. I remember reading somewhere that the aft seal goes in "backwards", can anyone confirm that?
 
The AFT-most seal does indeed install in the non-conventional direction...... I.E., lip and tension spring facing AFT.
Before installing this seal, make sure that you prefill the grease cavity until you see grease exit the 6206 open bearing ball cage.


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What is the logic behind that (seal direction)? Also, the one I took out was installed 'conventionally'... I'm assuming someone installed it backwards.

I trust you guys are right, I'm just genuinely curious.
 
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8point1 said:
What is the logic behind that (seal direction)?
This is essentially a bearing box with future lube capability.
This style seal also works hydraulically... in that with pressure against the lip, the seal force becomes greater.
IOW, more pressure = increased sealing.

With the AFT seal facing against the hydraulic principle.... this seal will not become hydraulically assisted.... as per what we want.

The FWD seal becomes "blind" to us once all is put back together.
If the AFT seal was to hold hydraulically...... any excessive grease gun force can push the FWD seal out of it's bore.
IOW... we want the AFT seal to breach any excessive grease gun pressure so that the FWD stays put.

Also, the one I took out was installed 'conventionally'... I'm assuming someone installed it backwards.
Yes.... they sure did!
I see this all too often when I pull these apart. Often the FWD seal is out of it's bore just laying there on the PDS.

When this happens, no future grease can make it's way to and through the AFT bearing.
The AFT bearing takes the greater load and requires the better lubrication... so to speak.
Click to expand...

BTW... it's a misnomer that the AFT seal is a water seal. It is NOT a water seal.
If we have water within the bellows area.... we have bigger problems.



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I forgot to update this, but I wanted to say thank you to Ricardo and boatdoc. I would have been lost without your guys' tips and suggestions.

I was able to replace my PDS, as well as get everything else put together. Put 30W in and took her out on the sound. Rechecked the gear oil and no water! the repair was a success and I'm so glad I did the PDS while I was in there. For those thinking about doing it, its a breeze.
 
tip said:
I forgot to update this, but I wanted to say thank you to Ricardo and boatdoc. I would have been lost without your guys' tips and suggestions.
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I'm sure that I can also speak for Gary... you are welcome!

tip said:
I was able to replace my PDS...................... For those thinking about doing it, its a breeze.
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Yes, on the 4 cylinder or inline 6 cylinder engines, the PDS is removable from AFT, and it is a breese.......... However, on the GM V-8 engines with the double bearing PDS......., the engine must be removed!


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