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01 4.3L Gen II Alpha - winterizing - issue

HiZ

HiZ

Member
So, here is the deal
Friend has this set up and ususally sucks up coolant into the drained system from the drive IE:Big 6 gal drum with muffs

This year he said it would not suck up the coolant. So I stopped over and helped split the case and check the impeller
Perfect, no issues, no wear etc.
Put back together, added lube, hooked to muffs to try to see what he was talking about

Hooked them up and it started to suck up the coolant, now I'm not a Gen 2 gu'ru and there was a hold on the port side above the cavatation plate that was seeping out coolant and it wasn't getting the coolant up in past the circulation pump

So, we shut it down and the exhaust was rather hot and flappers were getting smelly/hot!?!
wtf

Nothing coming out of the exhaust as far as coolant
Pulled manifold hoses and there wasn't anything there, pulled the main hose from circulation pump to the Thermo housing and needed to add 1/2 gallon to fill the block!

So, questions:
1>what is that hole on the stbd side of the drive on the upper case above the cavitation plate
2>why would the coolant not be getting up into the engine; he had always done it that way (I disagree with his procedure) but it did not work

Any thoughts?
 
HiZ said:
So, questions:
1>what is that hole on the stbd side of the drive on the upper case above the cavitation plate
2>why would the coolant not be getting up into the engine; he had always done it that way (I disagree with his procedure) but it did not work

Any thoughts?
Click to expand...
1...... I'm no Alpha guru either. I will say that no sea water (or antifreeze in this case) should be exiting in that area.


2...... I'd think that more forensic work is needed.
Also, you are correct in your "disagreement with this procedure". Have your friend read this.


One last thing re; this
So, we shut it down and the exhaust was rather hot and flappers were getting smelly/hot!?!
Click to expand...
He may have damaged his rubber exhaust components, and I believe that this should be pulled apart and looked at.
Exhaust system components can take a few seconds while running dry, but any duration past that is risky.


.
 
sea water impellers really don't suck very well at all. They push. On plane they just control the flow coming in from the speed of the lower unit going through the water and the water being pushed up the intake grates.
So the impeller housing has to be completely submerged. The deeper the better. On most boats it is nearly 2 feet below the water's surface when the engine is started.

That said, I agree with you about your friend's process. What a waste of time and risk to the system. It takes about 45 seconds to open each drain cock on a 4.3. Less than 10 minutes to just drain the whole thing properly.
 
hystat said:
  1. sea water impellers really don't suck very well at all. They push. On plane they just control the flow coming in from the speed of the lower unit going through the water and the water being pushed up the intake grates.

  2. So the impeller housing has to be completely submerged. The deeper the better. On most boats it is nearly 2 feet below the water's surface when the engine is started.

  3. That said, I agree with you about your friend's process. What a waste of time and risk to the system. It takes about 45 seconds to open each drain cock on a 4.3. Less than 10 minutes to just drain the whole thing properly.
Click to expand...

  1. I must respectfully disagree here.
    These flexible vane impeller pumps could be considered a "semi-displacement" pump, and they will indeed pull a vacuum.


    These shown use a "cam" in lieu of Merc's eccentrically positioned impeller.
    Same basic principle..... different method for folding and un-folding the vanes.

    images


    jabsco.gif


  2. Consider the I/B's and I/O's with engine located sea water pumps.... Volvo Penta, Indmar, PCM, etc for example.


  3. On this, we fully agree!




A bit off topic, but this may help show why we should remove our sea water pump impellers for the lay up duration.
Again... this is not an A drive pump.

impeller.gif



This is Merc's eccentrically positioned belt driven sea water impeller pump.
The A drive also eccentrically positions the impeller (I.E., no cam)

3.jpg
 
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HiZ said:
So, here is the deal
Friend has this set up and ususally sucks up coolant into the drained system from the drive IE:Big 6 gal drum with muffs

This year he said it would not suck up the coolant. So I stopped over and helped split the case and check the impeller
Perfect, no issues, no wear etc.
Put back together, added lube, hooked to muffs to try to see what he was talking about

Hooked them up and it started to suck up the coolant, now I'm not a Gen 2 gu'ru and there was a hold on the port side above the cavatation plate that was seeping out coolant and it wasn't getting the coolant up in past the circulation pump

So, we shut it down and the exhaust was rather hot and flappers were getting smelly/hot!?!
wtf

Nothing coming out of the exhaust as far as coolant
Pulled manifold hoses and there wasn't anything there, pulled the main hose from circulation pump to the Thermo housing and needed to add 1/2 gallon to fill the block!

So, questions:
1>what is that hole on the stbd side of the drive on the upper case above the cavitation plate
2>why would the coolant not be getting up into the engine; he had always done it that way (I disagree with his procedure) but it did not work

Any thoughts?
Click to expand...

If the block only took 1/2 gallon to fill it, then the pump was working. Pull the small hoses to the risers off (if equipped) at the t-stat housing and look for some blockage.
 
First of all if he has a gen II Alpha with a single V6 he has a outdrive impeller......period!
No engine mounted belt driven impeller housing.
If he does have a engine mounted impeller than it is a bastard child.....

As I said in a previous posting on winterizing sucking up antifreeze thru the outdrive is NOT the way to winterize a boat of this type.

Here is what I consider the proper way.....

Outdrive trimmed down level, pull block and manifold plugs, drain block, drain manifold (use small skinny screwdriver to poke out any cast iron residue to allow water to flow out of block and manifolds freely), pull incomming water hose and pull manifold hoses from thermostat housing.
Pour 1/4 gallon of RV antifreeze into incomming water hose to push any water out of hose to outdrive (which is self draining and should see pink coming out outdrive and you may have to pour antifreeze in a couple of times as hose fills quickly) when done reconnect hose. Put plugs back in block and manifold when no more water is draining, pour 1/4 gal of RV antifreeze into manifold hoses. reconnect both hoses.
Disconnect main large water hose from thermosat housing, bend hose down towards bildge to empty any water in the hose and pump, pour remaining RV antifreeze into hose (goes directly into motor). reconnect hose, trim outdrive up and diconnect battery.

Done!
 
Right on here guys! I pull all drains and remove water then fill with Coolant on my boats, just so we are clear.

He has (past 2 winter preps) hooked up ears and sucked in coolant > this is not How I advise or the procedure I take
However, in his Lazy defense this 4.3L is in the bottom of a center Sponson on a 32' Toon and the aluminum is 3" from each side of the engine

Now, I guess my question is what is this hole? shown below
It's on the upper case 1/2 of the drive stbd side and is only on that side
IMAG0510.jpg

IMAG0509.jpg

I know that's small but you can see the hole there, what is it?
 
Also, why would he be able to pull/suck in coolant > as it should
Prior years and not this year?

Just wondering if anyone has had this issue
 
RicardoMarine said:
. These flexible vane impeller pumps could be considered a "semi-displacement" pump, and they will indeed pull a vacuum.
Click to expand...
Do you mean semi-positive displacement? I suppose it is that.

The alpha gen II pump needs to be well submerged to self prime. It isn't a lot like any of the pumps you pictured which are better at self priming because the ones you pictured are designed to be started above the water line. The impeller in the unit discussed in this thread needs to be submerged. Deep. Then it self primes.

The reason it probably is getting worse this year from last year is the vanes aren't as new and/or as tightly sealed to the housing as they spin.
 
HiZ said:
He has (past 2 winter preps) hooked up ears and sucked in coolant > this is not How I advise or the procedure I take
Click to expand...
Good for you!

What some people may not be considering (in the case of winterizing in this fashion), is that most all sea water (antifreeze) is actually by-passing engine cooling demands. This is by nature of the Raw Water Cooled engine T-stat housing configuration.

These guys see their antifreeze exit the exhaust system, and they think that All-is-well!

Every Spring some poor soul ends up with a cracked engine due to using these Camco or Star-Brite winterizing kits. :eek:

These people should be ashamed of themselves! :mad:

CAMCO-1.jpg




If you want a better kit.... try my new kit. (see image below):rolleyes:

Warning... full of sarcasm!

****************************



hystat said:
Do you mean semi-positive displacement? I suppose it is that.
Yes, I stand corrected. I should have said "semi-positive displacement".

The alpha gen II pump needs to be well submerged to self prime. It isn't a lot like any of the pumps you pictured which are better at self priming because the ones you pictured are designed to be started above the water line. The impeller in the unit discussed in this thread needs to be submerged. Deep. Then it self primes.
I must respectfully disagree.
While the images I posted do not reflect the A drive pump exactly, the "un-folding" of the blades/vanes do create a certain amount of suction.
Conversely, the "folding" of the blades/vanes do create a certain amount of pressure.

I've never had an issue using the garden hose "muffs" on an A drive.


The reason it probably is getting worse this year from last year is the vanes aren't as new and/or as tightly sealed to the housing as they spin.
Agreed! IOW, a certain amount of resiliency has been lost.

This is why removing the impeller for the lay-up duration is a plus!
Click to expand...
 

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The cavity behind those holes is where the impeller housing resides. That cavity is also where the water deluted exhaust passes thru on its way thru the propeller.
Those holes allow the water to drain the residual water left behind when the boat is pulled out of the water and drain out.
 
kghost said:
The cavity behind those holes is where the impeller housing resides. That cavity is also where the water deluted exhaust passes thru on its way thru the propeller.
Those holes allow the water to drain the residual water left behind when the boat is pulled out of the water and drain out.
Click to expand...

I know those and the intake holes

I'm talking on the upper case just below the cavatation plate if you look at the fore bolt of the lower gear case you will see the hole just below it
 
Exactly.............................................................
Those are the holes I am speaking of...........
 
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Cool, there was only the 1 passage on the drive and I assumed when you said holes you were talking the water pickup
 
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