Logo

Velvet drive rebuild - crazy not to change damper plate? (1988 454 w/ 1000 hrs)

bobct

Advanced Contributor
I'm going to use the offseason to rebuild my velvet drive (straight with 1.52:1 reduction). It's working fine but spins at a pretty good clip when in neutral. I've been throwing it into reverse for a second all season while the lines were being untied because it would creep forward. Pretty sure I caused this issue by overheating the clutches. Some of you might remember my post when I changed the trans oil cooler lines, didn't tighten the lower one, fluid leak, false reading, blah blah. I checked the linkage today just on the off chance I was staying slightly in gear but it was dead on.

I already started prepping it today and figuring out what I should order. Am I crazy not to replace the damper while it's out? Obviously no noise so this would be elective surgery. Rear main seal? Generally on cars I don't touch those unless they're leaking which is the same here.

Other than the kit with clutches and seals, is there anything else on the trans itself I should replace based on age?

Thanks
Bob
 
Last edited:
A close inspection of the plate by an expert will tell you if you need to apply the old adage: "If in doubt, throw it out!"

Jeff
 
Is the engine coming out?

At 25 years or so; none of the following should be original: seals, coolers, rubber hoses, neutral switch, you have the clutch packs covered. THe bearings and oil pump should be fine at 1k hours, if no water had gotten in. Is there case external rust? now is the time for complete sandblast, epoxy primer, topcoating. Check for dampener plate for metal wear at the ends of the springs.
 
I would change it out as it is cheap insurance. I learned the hard way a couple years ago. While I was rebuilding one of my engines, I did not do anything to the Velvet Drive. Well wouldn't you have it, mid way through the season the dampner cut loose. I ended up pulling the trans while in the water. If I would have spent that hundred bucks or so up front, it would have saved me lots of work down the road.
 
Dave, no engine is not coming out. "U" cooler is only 2 years old and I replaced all lines at the same time. The case looks good but will clean it up and repaint again. I "think" I have a 2 piece rear main seal so ruling that out since the engine will be in place. I don't have any significant leaks now anyway. Even if the damper looks good now, would you do it anyway?
 
Based on the accumulation of Q & A, aboave, I would renew the plate while the gear was out...and 2X on the pressure hoses ...
 
"would I replace it"? hmmm. Well, I had a davit in the back yard to make the ceremony of an engine R&R almost zero cost with a couple hours labor. So, that factors into my answer. Since the dampner requires the bellhousing to come off, is that convenient in your situation? If the springs can't move by hand, the sheet metal didn't have spring/wire grooves, and rust was limited, I'd prolly not replace it. Then again, I've never had one fly apart at sea, like Craig did. The several I did end up replacing simply slowly became worn with rattle at idle in gear. If you do replace it, make darn sure the few smallish bolts are torqued correctly.
 
Is this a typical Borg Warner drive coupler?

ALTDA-106A.jpg
18-5661_0.jpg
images



Or more like this style?

mSOMMzuHReV-spX_C_nlBoA.jpg
boat-engine-shaft-coupling-25655-450857.jpg





.
 
Is this a typical Borg Warner drive coupler?

ALTDA-106A.jpg
18-5661_0.jpg
images



Or more like this style?

mSOMMzuHReV-spX_C_nlBoA.jpg
boat-engine-shaft-coupling-25655-450857.jpg



Ricardo, I don't have one in hand yet but for the 454, I believe it looks like one of the two on the top right. I'm going to change it regardless of how it looks. It's got to be getting towards end of life and it's too much labor to try and squeeze a few more years out of it. I have pretty good access to the back of the engine so I think getting the bell housing off won't be too bad. I just replaced the starter over the summer so there shouldn't be any surprises there. I have a download of the VD service manual which is dated 1986. Does anyone know if there is a newer one? I'm not sure who owns them now.... thanks - Bob
 
Bob, I agree...... there's no sense in trying to save a few nickels. However, these will sometimes go for years and years, and still be OK.

You can look at the cushion spring landings (or thrust areas) for signs of wear. If they show no excessive wear, they are likely OK.
The cushion springs can even be slightly loose, yet they will function just fine.
Centrifugal force takes care of any rattling.

Your call!
 

Attachments

  • Borg Warner DC wear pattern areas.jpg
    Borg Warner DC wear pattern areas.jpg
    55.2 KB · Views: 251
Last edited:
Bob, I agree...... there's no sense in trying to save a few nickels. However, these will sometimes go for years and years, and still be OK.

You can look at the cushion spring landings (or thrust areas) for signs of wear. If they show no excessive wear, they are likely OK.
The cushion springs can even be slightly loose, yet they will function just fine.
Centrifugal force takes care of any rattling.

Your call!

Rick, I ordered a new damper and will compare the two. Based on the amount of work, I'm really leaning towards the swap out. Have any of you guys rebuilt a VD unit? As I'm starting to prep for the job, I'm now realizing that the in/out (2x) of the trans itself will be the hard part. My plan was to bring it home and down into my workroom. I also have a garage with a lift and air tools but then I don't have to worry about heating it up just to do a little work here and there. Can two guys comfortably move one of these around? I think the weight is 150lbs. Is it crazy to try and do the whole rebuild on the boat? It's wrapped and I have a great heater. Not as comfortable but a lot less movement but probably a mess too. Either way, I just bought a Bosch 3/8" cordless impact gun but it wouldn't loosen a lug nut tightened to 89lbs. In looking at the torque specs it still might be ok... a lot of the bolts are in the 40-50 range. Any thoughts appreciated...
 
A VD is a one man show once you get it to the bench. Then again, so is a 454 block rebuild:D There will be ATF everywhere. THere are several 12 point head bolts, I don't recall needing an impact on the actual transmission. A simple clutch pack and seal job could be done on plywood, on deck, under cover.
 
When I had my stbd out for rebuild in August, I had the same question. for around $135.00, I replaced it. Good thing I did. After a few weeks of boating, I was in the garage with a few friends, and we started looking at the used parts from the rebuild. A buddy noticed a hair line crack in the damper plate. Just DO IT!!!!
 
"If in doubt, throw it out!" Even when you're not in doubt, but it might a part replacement might be necessary later.

This is especially true when replacing a timing belt in a car, where the cost of replacing the water pump while doing the belt job is minimal compared to starting all over when the seal starts leaking.

Guess how I found THAT out!

Jeff
 
Ok, I decided to bring it home which I did yesterday. I have it almost broken down while I wait for parts. The manual looks good for the rebuild part but there's nothing about the tear down. I found a guy who posted some pics for another VD rebuild and they have been dead on until this step. His directions say remove two circlips and then the center section pulls out of the drum. I removed the two on one end and the big one on the opposite end (they are oriented in the picture that way). How do I get these separated? I think that's my last step and I'll have all the clutches out. Doing the damper next.

http://i1170.photobucket.com/albums/r537/A8CT/image-1.jpg

I'll post in trans forum as well.

thanks
Bob
 
Last edited:
I recall this step requires force. Dropping the unit's shaft end on a copper plate on concrete. My wooden bench has many imprints of the shaft end. It's been about 3 years, but my memory is telling me that with the circlips out, you need to develop a lot of inertia to separate the unit.
 
Last edited:
I recall this step requires force. Dropping the unit's shaft end on a copper plate on concrete. My wooden bench has many imprints of the shaft end. It's been about 3 years, but my memory is telling me that with the circlips out, you need to develop a lot of inertia to separate the unit.

Dave, ok maybe that the issue. I was expecting it to pull apart by hand based on the other post I found. Do you recall which end you applied force to? Do you mean the shaft end as the right side of my pic, opposite of the splined end?
 
I think you need to drop the splined-ended shaft down. But, call Hale Marine Transmission first; they are great.

Dave, I did call Hale which is where I ordered the parts from. Spoke to Chris and he said to hold the spline end and bang the other end of the shaft on concrete. You were right, it took a bunch of hard whacks but it worked. I've been treating this like a Swiss watch but he assured me the concrete will break before any damage will happen to the steel. The insides looks brand new, I don't see any wear at all. Hoping these clutches are slightly warped which was the cause of my neutral issue.

Bob
 
OK, good story. If you stack the old clutch pack together, you can see the warpage, especially with 6 plates stacked. Your rebuild manual talks of using vaseline for gasket lube, right?
 
Back
Top