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Mystery Carb Reaction

Here's the scoop from one of the Delphi (MEFI OEM) manuals....of course, they don't provide any specific "maps"
...

Density
One particular sensor contributes to the density factor, the Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) sensor. The MAP sensor is a 3-wire sensor that monitors the changes in intake manifold pressure which results from changes in engine
loads. These pressure changes are supplied to the ECM in the form of electrical signals. As intake manifold pressure increases, the vacuum decreases. The air density in the intake manifold also increases, and additional fuel is needed. The MAP sensor sends this pressure information to the ECM, and the ECM increases the amount of fuel injected, by increasing the injector pulse width. As manifold pressure decreases, the vacuum increases, and the amount of fuel is decreased. These two inputs, MAP and RPM, are the major determinants of the air/fuel mixture delivered by the fuel injection system. The remaining sensors and switches provide electrical inputs to the ECM, which are used for modification of the air/fuel mixture, as well as for other ECM control functions, such as idle control.

Just more food for thought....

DD - no doubt the vacuum will be reduced...the big Q is does the fuel flow increase....I'd bet hell yeah
 
.."So to get back to Jeff's question, he wonders why fuel flow rate of his carburetor engine seems to go up (according to his Floscan) without any throttle change when he believes air flow rate is going down (because of an rpm drop) as load increases. I have yet to hear a convincing explanation of why this happens (and that includes the guesses I have thrown out). Still a mystery to me."

You're not alone!

I have looked at vacuum at load, and there is virtually none. A marine engine pushing a 7 ton load like that, "up hill", have damn little vacuum.

Jeff
 
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Here's a link to a detailed tuning map:

http://www.mefiburn.com/uploads/mefi/tunerpro22.jpg

Though its for an engine a bit larger than Jeff's, I think the trend is clear.

Additional thoughts:

for a fixed throttle opening in the cruising rpm range, the volumetric efficiency of an engine will increase with a small increase in load, even with the engine rpm drop.

throttle up the engine to 2500 in the slip, yes, in neutral, and note the GPH and the throttle position. take the same two measurements in gear. both will increase....even though the "speed" of air thru the carb's venturi didn't change...
 
With all due respect (since I do not really know what is going on in Jeff's engine) I think this particular data (which was hard to read in the link) for fuel injection engines is misleading as to this issue (why does the Floscan say Jeff is using more fuel at a lower rpm with a fixed throttle). When an engine slows down with a fixed throttle plate, since the engine does not "suck" as hard, the manifold pressure rises. That, along with the fact that the intake valve is open for a longer time results in more air flow into each stroke. This is important information to fuel injected engines since the ECU must calculate how much fuel to shoot in. More air means it should inject more fuel for each stroke to keep the ratio correct. You can see why calculations for fuel injected engines spend a lot of time trying to determine the volumetric efficiency (how much air is getting into each stroke). It is the base datum for maintaining fuel to air ratio. But it doesn't mean much in terms of fuel usage per hour unless you multiply by rpm and displacement.

Carburetors (such as Jeff's) supply fuel in relation to the air flowing though them (ideally) and don't worry about where the air fuel mixture is going. They only care about total air flow so unlike an injected engine they do not worry about how many cylinders they are feeding or how often the intake valves open. Of course it really is not that simple which is why we have power valves, accelerator pumps, etc. And maybe that stuff is Jeff's answer. They are there because the carb fuel flow is slow to respond to the input of changing throttle plate position or changing load (decreasing rpm and vacuum at fixed throttle position). Or maybe the Floscan data really is not that accurate in the short term. Don't really know, but I do agree that fuel injected engines (and in fact all engines) use more fuel and air per stoke at lower rpms for the same manifold pressure and at lower rpms the manifold pressure should be even higher, which means even more fuel and air per stroke. But I am not sure that is the answer to the riddle since there are less strokes per minute.

@Mark As for the last suggested observation, I guess your neutral at the dock and in gear underway example might be a good test. My belief, is that the same throttle plate position that gives 2500 rpm in neutral, might give perhaps 900 rpm under load and that fuel consumption would be less not more. (addendum..Or maybe it would be the same, see below..) One could put some stops on the throttle plates and see what happens under those two conditions. I would do it myself but I don't have the Floscans. But that test would sort of simulate Jeff's observation. Or you could get a reading underway at a steady rpm on a calm day and then drag some buckets and see what happens to speed and fuel consumption under the increased load.

Now if you want to get the same 2500 rpm under load as at the dock, then you would have to increase the throttle plate opening. Vacuum would be reduced compared to the dock, more air would be ingested for each stroke at 2500 rpm (because there is more absolute pressure in the intake manifold) and more fuel would go in along with the air. But that does not simulate Jeff's observation.

After thinking about it, I believe we should assume that all these systems (carburetor and injectors) do a good job of controlling fuel air mixture. So engine air consumption per hour is also a measure of fuel consumption. And air and fuel are a measure of power output. Air consumption (and therefore power output) for a given engine is purely a function of rpm and manifold pressure (absolute as in above zero). Manifold pressure is a function of throttle plate opening divided by rpm (we can assume a linear relation over the small rpm change in Jeff's case). If your write the equation for this, you find that rpm cancels out!! and it says that air consumption (and fuel consumption and therefore power) are purely related to throttle plate opening.

Now I know that we are talking about steady state and also at the ends of the rpm range other stuff comes in, but this suggests that at a given throttle opening if we see varying load (climbing up a wave) we will see an rpm change (boat slows down to reduce speed related drag so total load remains the same) but will not see a change in air or fuel consumption (because power output is the same). Of course marine engines seldom see a varying load unless throttles are opened to increase speed by producing more power. There are no hills on the water except for Jeff's waves. So I still do not see an explanation other than to observe that as load increased, rpm dropped but then manifold pressure increased so that air flow into the engine remained about (or exactly) the same. Therefore fuel consumption did not go down even with the reduced rpm. And the same amount of air would go though the carburetor. So I am reversing my previous position about airflow and fuel fuel and rpm, but still do not know why fuel consumption would go up (not stay the same) when he hit the waves.

Interesting subject, still unclear to me but I enjoy the discussion.
 
..."Interesting subject, still unclear to me but I enjoy the discussion. "

Ditto! I'm considering asking Edelbrock for an explanation, though it may be a waste of time.

Jeff

PS: I have done the fuel consumption in neutral vs. rpms test (to see how much gas is needed to simply rev the motor higher). I forget the amount at 3,000 rpms, but it was at least 2 GPH as I recall. Hence the use of overdrive in modern cars and trucks. (where attaining better CAFE results are a massive effort).
 
Heard back from a real Carb Guru...he said for any given throttle plate setting, the fuel delivered by a modern carb will increase as the load increases....he didn't offer to get into the physics only to say it was due to the venturi principle...

My conclusion is that the carb meters fuel in proportion to the mass of air flowing thru it...
 
..."My conclusion is that the carb meters fuel in proportion to the mass of air flowing thru it... "

Agreed, but since the mass of air going through DECREASES with the loss of rpms....

I sent this mystery to Car Craft magazine's "Ask Anything" gurus. Maybe they can find the answer.

Jeff

PS: My late buddy Clint would have figured this out. He was a genius where engines are concerned.
 
..."Agreed, but since the mass of air going through DECREASES with the loss of rpms....

The VOLUME (per unit of time) goes down because the RPM drops; that I agree with...

The MASS injested is driven by the throttle plate's opening as well as the RPM....the other thing to consider is the loss of vacuum...and they all need to be considered to have the complete story.

Lets hope we can get somebody to link all the pieces and provide the whole story..
 
Agreed: When the boat slowed climbing the waves, the rpm dropped, the vacuum (what little there is of it under load) probably increased, the butterfly opening remained the same (fixed throttle position), but the GPH increased by about 1/2 gallon.

Interesting, eh!

Jeff
 
Semantics. It's kinda like describing gear ratios in a car: does a higher gear mean a larger ratio, or LESS motor rpm at the same speed? Some people see this both ways.

The vacuum INCREASES when the load decreases, and visa versa. When the boat climbed the wave, the vacuum NUMBER (in Hg) decreased.

Jeff
 
I'm trying to define our use of the word "load". It could mean "Torque" or it could mean "power". As you climb our offshore wave with fixed throttle, we have been agreeing that the rpm drops due to increased load/torque, let's say its torque. I think we also are saying that with less engine pumping action (rpm), the density of air in the intake manifold is increasing, so less vacuum. Now, power is rpm x torque. So, maybe the big question is: "did power increase or decrease"? THis might be a function of where on the power curve the boat is during this exercise.
 
Interesting thoughts.

From my observations of automotive vacuum gages, I know the vacuum decreases (number gets lower) when a car starts up a hill. The opposite happens on a downhill.

On whether the power increased or decreased as the boat climbed a wave, the only way it could have increased was for me to add throttle. By definition, hp equals torque generated at that rpm TIMES rpms. The rpms was going down, while the torque remained the same (or might have decreased slightly).

Jeff
 
As far as "load" goes, I try to use it as meaning the amount of work the engine is being asked to provide...and it relates to the torque produced by the engine.

The torque generated by a gasoline engine can vary at a given rpm...it is proportional to the mass of air being consumed by the engine (check the OBDII control theory references).

being as the torque produced by the engine is what is spinning the propeller, when the boat goes "up" the wave and the engine rpm slows a bit, the torque will increase (from what was produced before the rpm drop)...and as DD suggested, how much of which parameter changes will be driven by the engine's power curve...
 
It should not be that complicated. Unlike a computer/MPI system, a carburetor is a "dumb" device. The only thing it "knows" in this situation is outside air pressure, throttle plate position and manifold vacuum. And the first two don't change in this example. It does not "know" engine rpm, load, torque, etc. or any of the other stuff we have speculated about. If the engine slows down because of increased load then one would presume that the vacuum is reduced (engine not "sucking" as hard) and there is less pressure differential between the entrance and exit to the carburetor. Don't think so? Then tell us why. If there is less pressure differential then one would presume that there is less air flow though the carburetor. Don't think so? Then tell us why. If there is less air flow, then one would presume there is less fuel being added to that air flow. Again, if you disagree, say why.

What does not seem to fit in all of this is why the observation (by the Floscans) is that more fuel per hour is being consumed when the boat goes "uphill" without changing the throttle. I, for one, have serious doubts that is really the case. But I cannot explain the observation other than to say I don't see how it is possible.

Still, a fun topic. At least the boat runs, which is way better than the usual complaint/questions.
 
I agree it's a mystery! But that is what I observed for at least a half hour.

Gotta disagree with this statement: "being as the torque produced by the engine is what is spinning the propeller, when the boat goes "up" the wave and the engine rpm slows a bit, the torque will increase (from what was produced before the rpm drop)... "

The torque being produced at the fixed throttle position will DEcrease as the rpms are dragged down by additional loading. Taken this to the extreme, enough additional loading would drag the engine down so far it would stall--zero torque.

Jeff
 
If the engine slows down because of increased load then one would presume that the vacuum is reduced (engine not "sucking" as hard) and there is less pressure differential between the entrance and exit to the carburetor. Don't think so? Then tell us why..

Yes, the vacuum is reduced which means the pressure in the intake has risen...since the volume is fixed, that means more air mass (density) exists in the intake (for a given unit of time).

If there is less pressure differential then one would presume that there is less air flow though the carburetor. Don't think so? Then tell us why. .

Here's where one of the ambiguities lies in most of what you read - what does "less air flow" mean??? The volume of air per unit time will vary with the rpm and I think we will all agree to that. But with the throttle plate not being adjusted, as the rpm drops, the density of the air going into the manifold has risen; ie more mass (molecules) of air has flowed the carb.

If there is less air flow, then one would presume there is less fuel being added to that air flow. Again, if you disagree, say why.
You will find a wealth of internet information discussion carburetors and very little of it concentrates on the details...i think when you get into the physics of how the carb operates, I'm pretty sure you will find the metering is tailored to maintain the air-fuel ratio based on mass...so, if you let more air mass flow thru the carb, the carb will mix in more gasoline to maintain the ratio. And all of this applies to operation on the main circuit only without invoking any of the transition circuits or devices...
 
Somebody, somewhere is reading this thread with twin carbed engines and flowscans. PLEASE, take the boat out to cruise speed and kill one engine, then report what happens to fuel flow with the still lit engine. That should put this to bed, maybe.. (make sure the boat doesn't veer into a piling!)
 
Jeff, I've been following this thread since the beginning. It's been very educational, but I'll be the first to say I don't understand everything I learned.

Like everyone else, I have a theory. What if your fuel flow gauge isn't monitoring real-time, but instead is averaging the fuel flow rate over a period of time? If the averaging period was half the time between wave crests, you would see the average flow rate for going up the face as you are going down the back side of the wave.

Unfortunately, we need for you to find a stretch of water that's all uphill or all downhill to test this theory.

Dan
 
Thought of that, Dan. I been monitoring that GPH reading for years, so I can assure you it was going from its "normal" usage to more than normal when the boat climbed the waves.

But you have a good point on the real time issue. There has to be a time lag between the float drop (from increased usage) and the gas flowing faster to replenish it. As I recall, the GPH took about 1 to 2 seconds to react upward as the rpms dropped, and the rpms HAD dropped before the gage moved.

Aaagh!

Jeff
 
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