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  1. #1

    Default Newbie confused with 2 dead batteries, dead motor (1992 Yami 250 TXRQ) ending a trip with SeaTow.

    1992 Aquasport 210 Explorer with 1992 Yamaha 250 TXRQ

    Out on the water all day various starting, stopping, off/on, wake zones, etc.

    about 500 yards or so from the home marina as I slowed down for the "no wake zone", the Yami quit. I didn't have enough battery power to start the motor or lift the motor out of the water. Not even a "click-click-click".

    2 batteries, both are Walmart Everstarts. When I bought it a month ago, previous owner said "one battery was 3 years old, the other is 5 years old". I have no idea which is which. Both the DC and MS batteries are mfg in 2007 though.

    Battery switch was on "all" when it died.

    Is a bad battery enough to put a high enough load on the system to kill this motor at idle? I thought that a carbed motor should keep running even if the battery is dead.

    When I pulled the batteries last night, after the tow, the unload, getting the family in the truck, etc, the negative post of the Starting battery was HOT.

    Both batteries were drained but both charged up on the charger at home with no trouble. I'm going to take them up to get them tested anyway, and probably replace them regardless simply due to age.

    But should this have happened?
    Last edited by ptnomore; 08-24-2013 at 11:32 AM.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Newbie confused with 2 dead batteries, dead motor (1992 Yami 250 TXRQ) ending a trip with SeaTo

    batteries are mfg in 2007 though.
    Batteries can die of old age...you are lucky the Wally World batteries made it past 3 years.
    Fix minor things (replace wear items for preventative maintenance.) that cause major problems before they break.

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    Default Re: Newbie confused with 2 dead batteries, dead motor (1992 Yami 250 TXRQ) ending a trip with SeaTo

    Check the ends of the main power cables where the 'terminals connectors' are crimped on. They might look fine, but under the heat shrink they can be corroded right away. A simple test is to see how easily the cable will bend at the edge of the crimp, or pull hard on the terminal end and see if the connector moves or pulls right off. If it bends really easily it is probably bad. This is a really common problem and one of the symptoms is that the cable and and terminal post will get hot. The -ve cable is the one most commonly affected. Fixed the same problem on one of my winch power cables last Friday.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Newbie confused with 2 dead batteries, dead motor (1992 Yami 250 TXRQ) ending a trip with SeaTo

    A boat is not the place to run a battery til it craps out....(or the wifes car or anywhere else for that matter)...3 years is my rule on the starting battery...the trolling motor battery i will push a little longer..you can tell when it time by the ''feel' on those..
    you either have a bad cable or connection or a loose post on the hot post...you may also be drawing current after the shut down for it to still be hot after doing all your loading etc...fix your cable or corroded terminal on the cable first...then as you hook up the new battery watch for any spark when the last cable is attached.. if you see that then something is drawing current when it should not...then check the post after running the boat for heat to make sure you fixed it...check with a meter or your boat gauge to make sure the battery is charging ....

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Newbie confused with 2 dead batteries, dead motor (1992 Yami 250 TXRQ) ending a trip with SeaTo

    for what it's worth, when running my motor i never set my selector switch to "both" when running. select one battery setting and keep it there. that way you have a fresh battery available and that can save you a tow. a lot of people will suggest to alternate during the day. bad idea ! especially if the engine is not charging. then you are just running both batteries down during the day. leave the charging for both batteries for when you get home. run on the main battery......then switch to the alternate if there is a problem.
    *** In comparing the virtues of various calibers, using hollow point ammo: it is absolutely undeniable that, while a 9 mm or .40 S&W may or may not expand, a .45 will never shrink. ***

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Newbie confused with 2 dead batteries, dead motor (1992 Yami 250 TXRQ) ending a trip with SeaTo

    agree with crankbait...keep it simple and safe....always put a boat in the water with fully charged batteries...most charging systems on outboards are designed to maintain a battery..not to charge a dead battery...if charging a dead battery is within the capability of the charging system using it for such just adds to the heat in the stator which is bad news in itself...so i dont do it..
    after many years on the water(60 running a boat..75 years old) you develop a thought process on boats..#1.is everything on the rig in top shape..no known problems...especially in the electrical or gas feed areas...do i have the minimum tools and battery power and gas to get me in? #2..never fish with a person in his rig the 2nd time if the rig is not maintained..i could go on and on...

  7. #7

    Default Re: Newbie confused with 2 dead batteries, dead motor (1992 Yami 250 TXRQ) ending a trip with SeaTo

    You guys nailed it. I had both batteries tested at Autozone, and as expected both were bad. As also was mentioned above, I checked the negative cables for corrosion, etc. Negative cables actually looked good etc for some VERY minor surface corrosion on the lug only. The positive cable however on the Starting Battery side, was a mess. There wasn't much left of that at all. I didn't notice it in the dark when I pulled the batteries out, but it wasn't difficult to find at all the next day.

    Two Deka's, a new cable and we spent the entire day on the water with no trouble. Still some work to do, but nothing pressing.

    You guys are awesome. Thanks SO much for the info and experience. I take every bit of it seriously.

    I'll be back.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Newbie confused with 2 dead batteries, dead motor (1992 Yami 250 TXRQ) ending a trip with SeaTo

    I use a battery protective spray on all terminals and lugs...stops corrosion dead. Any auto parts store has it. All of my toys get it sprayed on them. My boat trailer lights did not work yesterday. I found the truck's pigtail had corroded female terminals. I used rolled sandpaper and polished them then swabbed them w/the spray.
    Fix minor things (replace wear items for preventative maintenance.) that cause major problems before they break.

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    Default Re: Newbie confused with 2 dead batteries, dead motor (1992 Yami 250 TXRQ) ending a trip with SeaTo

    that spray is good...carry it in my truck....on those new batteries...if they came with wing nuts get rid of them and replace with regular nuts..use the spray mentioned above...i threw a cheap box wrench in the battery compartment and every now and then when i top off my batteries i check and make sure they are tight...never found a really loose one but sometimes i get maybe 1/8th of a turn..a decent battery charger that wont boil batteries is a good investment...and in todays market there are some priced in the 50 dollar range that you can leave hooked up and never worry..i run separate batteries for start and trolling motor..when i get the boat home the charger goes on the trolling motor battery within 24 hours...when it is topped off i move the charger to the start battery and just leave it...

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    Default Re: Newbie confused with 2 dead batteries, dead motor (1992 Yami 250 TXRQ) ending a trip with SeaTo

    you mentioned things that are not pressing but need doing...a word to the wise...do them...a boat is like no other piece of equipment you own...first of all they go to pot with no use...so use it and maintain it...if you dont then one day you will back off and look at it and you got a pile of crap...the trailer bearings are probably shot..the trailer lights dont work or half ass work sometimes..the trailer runners are rotten... the boat itself will have many things wrong....the motor lower unit oil is too old..plugs have not been changed or checked...carbs are questionable...etc etc etc... the key is to fix everything that you see wrong...you will have things break or quit working regardless but at least you are basicly ok..

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Newbie confused with 2 dead batteries, dead motor (1992 Yami 250 TXRQ) ending a trip with SeaTo

    Walmart is not the place to purchase marine batteries. They are the worst of the worst. They will cause problems. Get a set of good batteries and retest.
    Chris
    Dockside Marine Services
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    Mercruiser/Mercury Certified
    Let the insanity begin.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Newbie confused with 2 dead batteries, dead motor (1992 Yami 250 TXRQ) ending a trip with SeaTo

    he said he got Deka batteries...he did mention auto zone but i didnt know they or walmart carried dekas....oriely does..either way they are not cheap and good batteries...10 year warranty on their batteries and 5 years on their rebrands...i think the rebrands are red top but not positive on that...

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Newbie confused with 2 dead batteries, dead motor (1992 Yami 250 TXRQ) ending a trip with SeaTo

    Whenever I buy a battery I check the mfg. date code so that I don't get one that has been sitting on the shelf more than 2-3 months. A few years back I went to a Sears Hardware to get a Diehard marine starting battery. The clerk...young boy...tried to sell me one that was 3 years old. He didn't know about date codes. Sample code: F2 = June 2012. The letter is the month where A=Jan., B=Feb., C=Mar., etc. and the number is the last digit of the year where 1=2011, 2=2012, 3=2013,etc.
    Fix minor things (replace wear items for preventative maintenance.) that cause major problems before they break.

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    Default Re: Newbie confused with 2 dead batteries, dead motor (1992 Yami 250 TXRQ) ending a trip with SeaTo

    Quote Originally Posted by papyson View Post
    he said he got Deka batteries...he did mention auto zone but i didnt know they or walmart carried dekas....oriely does..either way they are not cheap and good batteries...10 year warranty on their batteries and 5 years on their rebrands...i think the rebrands are red top but not positive on that...
    I agree Deka does make the best battery. Walmart batteries will cause many issues.
    Chris
    Dockside Marine Services
    Jersey Shore.
    Mercruiser/Mercury Certified
    Let the insanity begin.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Newbie confused with 2 dead batteries, dead motor (1992 Yami 250 TXRQ) ending a trip with SeaTo

    Quote Originally Posted by Docksidemarineservices View Post
    I agree Deka does make the best battery. Walmart batteries will cause many issues.
    Autozone tested them. I purchased the new ones at a local Marine Retailer and was pleasantly surprised at price. They were both Deka's, manufactured Aug 2013. And I did use both the Deka Cleaner, and Deka battery Corrosion Inhibitor. I use that stuff on all of my vehicles, and have for more than 10 years now. I love the stuff. I don't do anything with batteries with out it.

    Now, I've got bigger problems. I'm at about 50/50 on runs out with the boat and getting back in under my own power. Today, all was well until I turned the boat off to let my son get in the tube, and I had no power to the starter upon restart. I direct wired the motor to the both batteries (one at a time) bypassing the Perko, and still nothing. Both batteries were showing 12.8 on the handheld meter, and just in case I even tried the new and freshly charged jump pack. NOTHING.

    I'm going to start a new Thread for the remainder of this. I need some help, but slightly different subject. I'm not putting the boat back in the water until I go thru the entire boat myself, and at this point, I want to re-wire it all from front to back so that I'm truly confident and know 100% what I've got.

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    Default Re: Newbie confused with 2 dead batteries, dead motor (1992 Yami 250 TXRQ) ending a trip with SeaTo

    Was the solenoid clicking when you tried to start, or was there a 'buzzing' noise of any sort?

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Newbie confused with 2 dead batteries, dead motor (1992 Yami 250 TXRQ) ending a trip with SeaTo

    dont overlook bad grounding...check that by using a meter plus a visual check...on a 20v dc scale see if you are reading the same from a motor ground on bare metal and the negative post on the battery while engaging the starter(or trying to)... make sure you have the negative lead on the battery post itself and not touching the wiring on the post..you are looking for a voltage drop between the post and motor block...i would try to trouble shoot the failure before rewiring....then after you get the existing problem with a known fix decide on the rewire project...keep in mind that a voltage drop will not show up unless you are drawing current..you will only find a complete open just probing around with a meter with no load..

  18. #18

    Default Re: Newbie confused with 2 dead batteries, dead motor (1992 Yami 250 TXRQ) ending a trip with SeaTo

    Quote Originally Posted by aliboy View Post
    Was the solenoid clicking when you tried to start, or was there a 'buzzing' noise of any sort?
    There was nothing...at first. I was really baffled. I was getting absolutely nothing, anywhere. Gages, lights, nothing. So I removed the Battery switch and direct wired the motor to the battery, and checked the batteries. Both batteries were fully charged. And I even put my jump pack on it just to be sure to see if an extra boost would help.

    Direct wiring it to the battery, I got the "buzz" that I normally get from the motor when the key is in the on position. But no more than one "click" at the start position. And after that, the buzz was gone, the gages, lights, etc were all out as well. Turn the key to the full off position, And the process just repeated itself.

    On the tow in, I tried to start it again, just cuz I had nothing better to do, and the motor was turning over just fine, no trouble. But no start either...was just turning over. Didn't seem like I was getting any fire. It wasn't flooded, no fuel smell at all...wondering if I was getting any fuel at all. Does the ECM on these shut things off like fuel pump and ignition if it's not getting timing codes from cam/crank sensors similar to the cars of the 90's?

    Was just really bizarre.
    Last edited by ptnomore; 09-01-2013 at 11:00 AM.

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    Default Re: Newbie confused with 2 dead batteries, dead motor (1992 Yami 250 TXRQ) ending a trip with SeaTo

    Can you check the voltage at the solenoid and at starter motor whilst turning it over (or trying to when the fault is present)? My guess is that you might read 12v at the solenoid with the key in the 'on' position, but when you turn the key to 'start' the voltage will drop very low. If so, the fault could be another bad cable end or loose connection in the main power feeds. Note that sometimes an engine will turn over, but the voltage is too low to enable the ECM. This can also be due to a bad cable or connection.

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    Default Re: Newbie confused with 2 dead batteries, dead motor (1992 Yami 250 TXRQ) ending a trip with SeaTo

    keep in mind that a voltage drop will not show up unless you are drawing current.
    W/all due respect pappyson I disagree. I remember studying basic electricity/electronics during radar/missile school in 1969/1970. A corroded wire that has increased in resistance (bascially a giant resistor) will cause a voltage drop from one end to the other when measured from a common ground.
    Fix minor things (replace wear items for preventative maintenance.) that cause major problems before they break.

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    Default Re: Newbie confused with 2 dead batteries, dead motor (1992 Yami 250 TXRQ) ending a trip with SeaTo

    Quote Originally Posted by guyjg View Post
    W/all due respect pappyson I disagree. I remember studying basic electricity/electronics during radar/missile school in 1969/1970. A corroded wire that has increased in resistance (bascially a giant resistor) will cause a voltage drop from one end to the other when measured from a common ground.
    guyjg - pappyson is actually correct. The only reason you can measure a voltage drop on a corroded wire is because your meter draws current to make the measurement. Make the same measurement with some type of very high impedance tool and you won't see the volt drop. In this case the OP might measure 12v or so at the solenoid when not trying to start the engine and yet the voltage might drop to almost nothing at the same point as soon as he turns the key and draws significant current.

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    Default Re: Newbie confused with 2 dead batteries, dead motor (1992 Yami 250 TXRQ) ending a trip with SeaTo

    pappyson is actually correct. The only reason you can measure a voltage drop on a corroded wire is because your meter draws current to make the measurement.
    Agreed.
    In this case the OP might measure 12v or so at the solenoid when not trying to start the engine and yet the voltage might drop to almost nothing at the same point as soon as he turns the key and draws significant current.
    Isn't that because the voltage supply...the battery...loses its stored voltage from the current draw? If the voltage supply is from a regulated supply then wouldn't the voltage remain the same but the current draw increase?
    Fix minor things (replace wear items for preventative maintenance.) that cause major problems before they break.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Newbie confused with 2 dead batteries, dead motor (1992 Yami 250 TXRQ) ending a trip with SeaTo

    Spent about 4 hours on the boat today.When I first got there, naturally I tried starting it, and of course, this trailer queen fired right up. Like instantly. *&^%$#@!

    Pulled the battery cables off completely. They're the original (appear to be original) and ridiculously long, #2 from what I can tell. I purchased 8ft of #4 Red and Black (pos and Neg, I know) prior to going to the boat or knowing for sure what size cable was on there, at West Marine (only thing open today and on the way). ICables I bought are a good 4 feet shorter than the cables I took off. I'm thinking I'm OK with what I bought, reduced length and one diameter smaller.

    I didn't get it done as I need a smaller lug for the starter Solenoid (1/4") everything else was 5/16" Although I hit the ends with battery corrosion inhibitor before I crimped them, and wrapped them with elec tape, I still want to get shrink wrap and protective boots for them as well.

    At the original Perko 4 way, Both positive cables going to each of the batteries were toast...severely corroded. Interesting thing I found there though...the Positive cables were #2 and the negative cable connecting the two batteries together was only #4. Not sure if that's a big problem or not. Not the way I would have done it though. If anything, I would go one larger, not smaller.

    I did find one 16AWG wire right behind the batteries in the huge bundle, that had a small hole through the shielding and corrosion had all but completely eaten through the wire there. I cut the bad area out and spliced that back to together. Best I can tell, it was the the feed for the Float switch at the bilge. Previous owner did tell me that he added a fwd bilge pump, so I'm guessing that I found where he pierced the shielding to find the hot lead to the bilge.

    I cut every zip tie,l undid every clamp, removed the flex plastic rigging tube, etc...everything I could do to break the wires as loose as possible from the motor along the transom to the battery hold.

    I also removed the enclosure hiding all the wiring from under the dash. The wiring itself looked clean, but geezus was there alot of sawdust and other crud built up laying in the bottom of that enclosure. It was all dry, very dry. No corrosion to speak of. And not the rats nest of wiring that I was expecting either. It was nice and tidy, and "clean".

    From the motor, I cleaned every strand of wire, fuel line, control cable, etc. Every one. The rigging tube was packed solid with greasy dirt, sand etc. It came off and out in chunks. The back of the boat was a mess. Nothing was chaffed though. I didn't find any other breaks in the wiring jackets, no corrosion, nothing.

    The battery cable terminal ends at the motor side looked brand new. The battery side didn't look new, but they definitely didn't look bad.

    Once again, I'm baffled. Kinda hard to trouble shoot, when it seems to run just fine, again.

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Newbie confused with 2 dead batteries, dead motor (1992 Yami 250 TXRQ) ending a trip with SeaTo

    In a word, if I understand you correctly, - no. There is an 'electrical law' called "Ohms Law". Basically what it says is that the voltage drop through any item (in this case maybe a bad cable connection) equals the Resistance of that item (R) x the current (I). In other words the voltage (V) lost across the bad cable is calculated as V=IxR. So the amount of voltage at the solenoid is the battery voltage ~12.8v less the voltage drop across the cables. Drops too much voltage in the cables and there won't be enough at the engine. This is why you need to use bigger diameter cables (bigger diameter = lower resistance) for longer cable runs or larger engines etc. Hope this makes sense.

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    Default Re: Newbie confused with 2 dead batteries, dead motor (1992 Yami 250 TXRQ) ending a trip with SeaTo

    If your estimates of the old 2AWG cable lengths (24ft total) are about right, and your new 4AWG cables are ~16ft then you will have only lost a very small amount of voltage at the engine (0.1v - 0.3v) when starting. You may lose a little more at the crimps depending how they are done, but should be negligible. Your problems do sound reasonably typical of cable issues, so hopefully all the new cables will get it sorted.

  26. #26
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    Default Re: Newbie confused with 2 dead batteries, dead motor (1992 Yami 250 TXRQ) ending a trip with SeaTo

    Chances are the rigging cable supplied by Yamaha for your engine is completely Bad. Wait til you see the price of the new one from Yamaha. This is a common and overlooked problem with these engines causing hard starts. Also your rigging cable may be spliced somewhere in the boat causing all your problems.
    Chris
    Dockside Marine Services
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    Let the insanity begin.

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    Default Re: Newbie confused with 2 dead batteries, dead motor (1992 Yami 250 TXRQ) ending a trip with SeaTo

    Guyjg....it dont really matter if you have a regulated supply...the current will decrease with resistance increase in the load....lets take a corroded negative battery terminal on a boat for example....if you measure from the negative terminal of the battery to the positive terminal from the terminal with no load lets say you read 12.7v...if you move the negative lead from the battery to the block with no load you will still read 12.7...ok...try to turn the motor over and take the same readings and you will see a difference in voltage between the motor ground and the negative post on the battery....no amount of regulation will remove that drop...the current from the battery will decrease compared to a good cable....its like pushing water through a hose with some restriction in it..water flow will drop...the same would apply to the positive side of the battery having a problem except the reading would differ between the starter positive post and the battery positive post... the heat you feel on an corroded cable or connection is because the bad spot has become a resistor..all resistors dissipate heat...a small low wattage resistor would burn up in this situation....actually with a connection you are drawing less current from the battery in most cases..i say most cases because you can blow a fuse if the connectoin is intermittent and you draw an arc..but thats a whole new discussion and unimportant on 99.9 % of our problems...Aliboy is basically correct in his statement that a regular meter draws a very small amount of current when measuring voltage...the better the meter the less current but thats why a regular meter is inaccurate(and will damage) in most electronic circuits and not used....they build expensive meters and oscilloscopes for that purpose...but they would still read the drop in voltage under load...(i know you know all this Guyjg but i figure if i put it up then some who dont understand it will read it)
    Last edited by papyson; 09-02-2013 at 08:14 AM.

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    Default Re: Newbie confused with 2 dead batteries, dead motor (1992 Yami 250 TXRQ) ending a trip with SeaTo

    Thanks Pappyson, very nice refresher after 43 years.
    Fix minor things (replace wear items for preventative maintenance.) that cause major problems before they break.

  29. #29

    Default Re: Newbie confused with 2 dead batteries, dead motor (1992 Yami 250 TXRQ) ending a trip with SeaTo

    SO from the posts above, I'm guessing that I'm good with the #4 AWG that I purchased? Book at the marine store suggested 6AWG. I went with #4 to be conservative but was thrown when I saw #2 on the boat, with a #4 negative cable connecting the two batteries.

  30. #30

    Default Re: Newbie confused with 2 dead batteries, dead motor (1992 Yami 250 TXRQ) ending a trip with SeaTo

    A simple test is to see how easily the cable will bend at the edge of the crimp, or pull hard on the terminal end and see if the connector moves or pulls right off. If it bends really easily it is probably bad.

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