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2001 Honda BF50a - Engine Not Charging and Tach Not Working. Rectifier Bad? Troubleshooting.

R

roryrhodes

Member
I do not remember seeing many questions about Honda charging systems. They do not go bad very often.

Once we get your tach working....then we will have to try to get it working correctly. The pre 2005 50's have a unique tach signal that will cause most tachs to read rather odd.

It is good that you have the manual.

The easiest way to check charging is to put a clamp on dc ampmeter on the positive battery lead from the engine. Start the engine and check the current flow. If you do not have one of those.....turn the keyswitch to on and check the voltmeter on the dash. Note the reading.
Start the engine.....if it goes up a couple of volts, the rectifier is probably working. If it does not seem to move, then there is probably an issue. If you have a volt ohm meter, you can also put its leads on the battery and watch the voltage there. That actually is a better place.
If no increase, then check to see if your green oil light is on when the engine is running....assuming all is wired correctly and the oil pressure is good, the charge coil or its connection may be bad. It supplies the ac to the oil pressure led.

The manual has a resistance test for the charge coil. You can also measure the ac across the two grey leads going to the coil while the engine is running. You should get more than 12vac ...probably in the 20's. The faster the motor goes, the more voltage. Set your meter to ac, since the charge coil puts out ac to the rectifier, which then turns it into dc.

The manual also has a resistance test for the rectifier/regulator. I have never done it, since I measure the voltage going in and measure the voltage and current coming out. If nothing comes out.....bad rectifier. I have had a bad charge coil but never seen a bad rectifier on the 50A.

The third grey lead from the rectifier is the one that eventually goes to the tachometer. If they really screwed up the installation, like you implied, they may not have connected the grey lead from the wiring harness to the gauge harness under the dash.

They also, may have miswired the tachometer. That is an easy thing to do, if you are not watching what they are doing. When you turn the key to on, the tachometer should go to zero.

The switch on the back of the teleflex gauge should be set at 3P for this year of the 50 HP.

That should get you started.

Mike


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Originally Posted by roryrhodes
My son and I are working on a Honda BF50a - 2001. Just picked it up from a local shop - should have done the work myself - to have it rigged with a Honda Control. That's another story for another day.

When they tried to test run it, the tach is not working (Teleflex) and the charging circuit isn't throwing voltage. They immediately threw the rectifier under the bus - so to speak. Is the an easy way to check this? I have the service manual - seems fairly straight forward.





 
Mike - Thanks for your advice. Clamped the positive side, nothing. Just in case the clamp meter is bad, going to try it on another battery this week. No voltage jump when the motor runs. Voltmeter stays at 12 - maybe 13v. Looks like a little drop after an hour of running with Humminbird and Bilge Pump running. The green oil light, is that the one on the side mount Honda control? There are two lights, not sure what they should indicate. Should they be red if problem, green if all's well? Time to Google.

Sounds like a good Saturday morning troubleshooting. I like the coil voltage test. Simple approach to trouble shooting. Thanks again, I'll keep you and others on the board posted. Took the boat out (actually my 23 year old son who the boat is for) 30 mph GPS speed, good safe fishing boat for Georgia lakes around the farm. (Carolina Skiff V19). Happy kid (young man). Priceless.
 
You can check your clamp gauge, if it is attached to the positive battery cable of the motor, by pushing your pushing the up or down trim switch. You should see a discharge of the battery.
Make sure it is a DC amp meter. Even some of the expensive Fluke meters do not measure DC.

The red light comes on when there is an overheat.
The green light should come on when the engine is running....it indicates you have good oil pressure.

If you do not have an owner's manual, you can download one for free from Honda http://marine.honda.com/owners/manuals/models/BF50 Choose the one for your motor based on serial number.
Sounds like the charge coil tested ok. You really did not say.

I thought originally, you had a binnacle mount shifter....

Anyway, if you have a side mount box, with the key switch in it....yes the lights are on the top of the control box.

If your clamp on meter is ready correctly, then it looks like the regulator/rectifier is probably bad.
I do not want to jump to conclusions yet, until you finish your testing.

The reg/rect will vary by serial number.



Mike
 
hondadude said:
You can check your clamp gauge, if it is attached to the positive battery cable of the motor, by pushing your pushing the up or down trim switch. You should see a discharge of the battery.
Make sure it is a DC amp meter. Even some of the expensive Fluke meters do not measure DC.

The red light comes on when there is an overheat.
The green light should come on when the engine is running....it indicates you have good oil pressure.

If you do not have an owner's manual, you can download one for free from Honda http://marine.honda.com/owners/manuals/models/BF50 Choose the one for your motor based on serial number.
Sounds like the charge coil tested ok. You really did not say.

I thought originally, you had a binnacle mount shifter....

Anyway, if you have a side mount box, with the key switch in it....yes the lights are on the top of the control box.

If your clamp on meter is ready correctly, then it looks like the regulator/rectifier is probably bad.
I do not want to jump to conclusions yet, until you finish your testing.

The reg/rect will vary by serial number.



Mike
Click to expand...

Mike - Thanks. I found the note on the engine lights. I do have the manuals. I just hadn't looked and don't recall the green light illuminating. Because of the angle of the side mount, the lights face down toawrds the deck. Originally, the boat had a binnacle type Mercury control (original motor) cabled to the Honda. There was enough clearance for the cables to install a binnacle top mount Honda unit. A replacement Honda control, did not clear the console once cables were installed. A pretty tight bend. The solution - not pretty - was to screw a side mount Honda control in. Still not right, doesn't look right, and not a clean install. (installed by a Honda Outboard Sales and Service Dealer)? I still have the top mount, maybe I can figure that one out later.

I'll have some time evenings this week to diagnose. My clamp isn't a Fluke, but it both an AC is a DC meter (Klein). I have to pull the top and tank the engine to test the coil. Easy enough, once I get down to the shop. Should be tonight. I'll try to shoot some pictures to add to the thread to help others.

Rory
 
Mike & Fellow Honda Forum Members - Latest on the BF50a charging issue. Green light does not illuminate on Remote Control when running. Tach doesn't work. Voltage drop when trim is applied. Checking voltage across the charging coil leads, I get 1.4v to 2.0v with some RPMs. Obviously too low. Voltage checked with connections to harness as well as disconnected (open leads) from harness. Opened up the flywheel, two charging coil system, both had covering (the cloth missing). No damage other then that. Pictures will follow. I'll assume since the 2.0 max voltage, one or both the coils are bad. I'll take another look to see if there is any damage I can't see once I pull them tonight. Inside of the flywheel clean, a little surface rust on the magnetic sections of the flywheel. Once replaced, this Friday, I can recheck, and rule out the rectifier/regulator. One step at a time, one step at a time. Mike, thanks again for the pointing in the right direction. Rory
 
Sounds like bad charge coils.

When you pull the flywheel, check for any metal shavings. Also look for any wear marks from the magnets scraping any of the coils. If you see any evidence of this, very closely examine the magnets....especially where the layers are laminated together. The magnets on some of the older 50's tend to delaminate and the top layer (about 1/32" thick) starts scraping the magnets. The magnets eventually come apart in chunks and cause the flywheel to lockup in some cases.

You will have to get the coils as a set of two...can not buy just one coil.

Sorry things did not work out on the rigging. Post some pictures of the console arrangement. I will be happy to give you my opinion of installing a binnacle mount. I am sure others will join in also with some of the things that they have done.

Mike
 
hondadude said:
Sounds like bad charge coils.

When you pull the flywheel, check for any metal shavings. Also look for any wear marks from the magnets scraping any of the coils. If you see any evidence of this, very closely examine the magnets....especially where the layers are laminated together. The magnets on some of the older 50's tend to delaminate and the top layer (about 1/32" thick) starts scraping the magnets. The magnets eventually come apart in chunks and cause the flywheel to lockup in some cases.

You will have to get the coils as a set of two...can not buy just one coil.

Sorry things did not work out on the rigging. Post some pictures of the console arrangement. I will be happy to give you my opinion of installing a binnacle mount. I am sure others will join in also with some of the things that they have done.

Mike
Click to expand...

Mike - Deal. Here are some pictures of the charging coils. Not too pretty. New one should be here on Thursday. Inside flywheel looked good, not contact points. Last picture, happy young man, even more once it's charging.
correctly.




 
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Nice rig.

First of all....your meter can only read AC amps...not DC. At least that is what the specs at Harbor Freight say. So all you are going to be able to do, when it is time to check the charging, is to check the difference in voltage at the battery (from before starting to after running).

The coils look pretty bad. Do the resistance check that is in the book, just to double check. No offense to your meter, but I always question how my meter is operating when the measurement is not what it should be. One way to double check the AC reading is to stick your test probes into an 110v AC outlet. You should get around 110 -120 v. Just do not touch the metal of the probes.

As for the shifter....there are ways.....
Your pictures linked to photo bucket, which also showed a bunch of other pictures, including some nice woodworking tools.

In order for the shifter cables to not have to make such a tight bend, you can make a standoff to mount the shifter on that would have a slight angle to it. Instead of the shifter handle (in neutral) being perpendicular to the face of the console, a slight standoff with an incline could make it angle slightly forward about 10 - 15 degrees. Honda makes a spacer, but yours would have to be a little thicker with an incline. http://marine.honda.com/content/images/accessories/06241-ZW5-U00.jpg The actual angle in something your would have to play with.

The standoff, itself, will give you a little more room for the bend. Once you set up the angle, then you can remove the shift arm and reclock it to be perpendicular to the console again.
It would take a lot of measuring and careful cutting, but it looks like you have the ability and tools to do it.

You could even just buy the Honda standoff and put it on its side and cut it with the angle you need....if that is enough. I have done it several times.

But let's get things working first.

Mike
 
hondadude said:
Nice rig.

First of all....your meter can only read AC amps...not DC. At least that is what the specs at Harbor Freight say. So all you are going to be able to do, when it is time to check the charging, is to check the difference in voltage at the battery (from before starting to after running).

The coils look pretty bad. Do the resistance check that is in the book, just to double check. No offense to your meter, but I always question how my meter is operating when the measurement is not what it should be. One way to double check the AC reading is to stick your test probes into an 110v AC outlet. You should get around 110 -120 v. Just do not touch the metal of the probes.

As for the shifter....there are ways.....
Your pictures linked to photo bucket, which also showed a bunch of other pictures, including some nice woodworking tools.

In order for the shifter cables to not have to make such a tight bend, you can make a standoff to mount the shifter on that would have a slight angle to it. Instead of the shifter handle (in neutral) being perpendicular to the face of the console, a slight standoff with an incline could make it angle slightly forward about 10 - 15 degrees. Honda makes a spacer, but yours would have to be a little thicker with an incline. http://marine.honda.com/content/images/accessories/06241-ZW5-U00.jpg The actual angle in something your would have to play with.

The standoff, itself, will give you a little more room for the bend. Once you set up the angle, then you can remove the shift arm and reclock it to be perpendicular to the console again.
It would take a lot of measuring and careful cutting, but it looks like you have the ability and tools to do it.

You could even just buy the Honda standoff and put it on its side and cut it with the angle you need....if that is enough. I have done it several times.

But let's get things working first.

Mike
Click to expand...

Thanks for the feedback. I have a AC/DC Current and Voltage Klein available there also when the time comes. Bought for a similar project some time back. A couple of vintage "needle" meters also. The HF was at hand. As for voltage, it was double checked against a wall outlet. The resistance check between leads on the charging coil showed no resistance, a closed circuit. I believe the manual calls for infinity ohms, or almost total resistance - an open circuit.

Here are two pictures with the Klein. When attached as in the second picture, the resistance should be infinity, the display would be the same as if the leads were open. The first shows the leads off, the same reading as the coils should read, infinity. The 00.00 shows continuity, a closed circuit. Maybe it's just too early, and I am reading this wrong.



 
The resistance, if good, is very small. .17 ohm to .23 ohm.

Can not tell if you meter can scale down that far. My guess is that the coil on the right might be shorted to ground through its core.

Mike
 
Mike - You're right. I was thinking about the rectifier/regulator test. Regardless, the test shows a continuous (closed) circuit instead of a very low (.2'ish) resistance. One of the coils is actually loose on the steel core. The test between leads on the regulator correctly returned the correct resistance - infinity - and were not "closed" circuits. By my calculations, that's a good thing even though I have a new regulator waiting for install. I'll get the coil in Friday night and alleviate that variable and see what happens. I'll try to get a full set of pictures and steps posted to help others in the future. Your advice has been great, I appreciate the help. The actual Honda Service Manual - complete with Blue Honda Binder, is a great investment. With any luck I can get the charging and gauges in working order this weekend. After that, I'll start figuring out the console mods. A new (new old stock) console arrived today from Rhode Island. It's the actual original console for the boat, minus a ton of holes and cracks. Complete with the correct Carolina Skiff windshield and a Faira gauge pack. That will be a winter project when things cool down here in Georgia. Hopefully the Honda spacer or two - sanded down on an angle - might work to get the cables at the right angle. The extension is a lot longer on the Honda pack. I still have all the harnesses, hopefully all will come together at a later date. I'll get pictures out there soon. A few brackets that need replacing, I think this engine saw some salt water time. I'll get those ordered while I am in it. You can see the starter corrosion. Works, but things like that bug me. Know of any "Corrosion Magic" sprays that disappear the corrosion look for guys like me?

Some of the pictures on Photobucket were of a milled piece of yellow pine, trying to get a template for cutting an HDPE trolling motor plate to mount with. This mock-up was close, but not quite there. Glad you able to scroll through.

Got to run into Dayton tomorrow. Keep the weather nice.

Here are pictures of the inside of the flywheel:


 
We have had this problem, and once it started we went through several sets of coils. Tried checking everything (reg, wiring, batts etc), changed the winch load onto the other engine (twins), changed the VSR charging setup etc etc. Would work for a few hours and then fail again. In the end we changed out the flywheel, reg and, CDI unit. That fixed it. Our best guess based on what we observed is that it was in fact something to do with the CDI unit, but I can't even think how that should be possible.
By the way, where did you source the coils, and what sort of price were they. We have a few of these engines and I wouldn't mind getting another spare set.
 
aliboy said:
We have had this problem, and once it started we went through several sets of coils. Tried checking everything (reg, wiring, batts etc), changed the winch load onto the other engine (twins), changed the VSR charging setup etc etc. Would work for a few hours and then fail again. In the end we changed out the flywheel, reg and, CDI unit. That fixed it. Our best guess based on what we observed is that it was in fact something to do with the CDI unit, but I can't even think how that should be possible.
By the way, where did you source the coils, and what sort of price were they. We have a few of these engines and I wouldn't mind getting another spare set.
Click to expand...

I think that these failed due to long term storage and subsequent exposure damage. Physically, the wrap was missing and the windings were loose on one coil. Hopefully the coil fixes it, if not, I'll diagnose from there. I have an regulator now on hand, just in case. I'll PM you on the source, I needed quickly and a warehouse in Georgia was able to deliver. About $100.
 
Problem solved. New coils arrived and installed. Voltage at coils variable with engine running (old coils were under 1 volt), 9.6 to over 20 volts based on RPM. Green engine light on, tach works, battery shows 13+ volts. Spent the day cleaning up what I paid to have done, looks a lot better. Splash test on Sunday.

Mike - Thanks for the help. Without your help, it might have taken much longer to solve, even with the Honda service manual.
 
hondadude said:
Success it good! Thanks for the feedback.

Have happy and safe boat bonding with your son.

Mike
Click to expand...

Splash test tonight. First run after charging system fix. Wide Open Throttle, WOT around 3000 RPM. Not sure what this motor should be putting out. Gauge is a later model Teleflex, no digital hour meter. Set to 3P. Does 3000 RPM sound right? Haven't pulled cover off to see throttle cable length of throw. Could be an adjustment of throttle cable length? I'll have to pull manual on adjusting the side mount Honda remote if 3000 RPM sounds low. 30MPH over water speedo and GPS.

Charge at 14 volts, gas gauge working.

Thoughts?

Just researched, looks like 3k is low. Time to Google. I think a search of the tach not working problem is what pointed me to marineengine.com in the first place. So is the RPM low or is the tach off? Next problem solving session now underway.
 
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You should get somewhere around 5500 - 6000 full throttle and trimmed out. If you get to about 6200 -6300, you will hit the rev limiter.

The setting is correct for that motor....however.....the Teleflex or Faria tachs have problems registering correctly with that engine.

It was supposed to have been fixed by the time your motor was made, but I do not think it was. Sometimes adding the Resistor Assy Kit (06383-ZV5-315) helps. I have found that a Teleflex w/o built in hour meter has less of a chance to work than either a Teleflex or Faria with a built in hour meter. Sometimes the Teleflex with the built in hour meter works without the resistor. I have found the Faria with built in hour meter and the resistor assy to always work.

Not a very definite answer....it may sound convoluted but it works.

These motors were originally shipped with a tachometer in the box. The tach had no settings and only worked with BF35 - BF50 motors. This is one that is for sale on ebay. http://compare.ebay.com/like/200944195795?var=lv&ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar There may be some cheaper on the internet, this one is just the first one that I googled to show as an example. It is a little smaller in diameter and requires a special ring to fit into the hole that a teleflex/faria uses.

Long winded answer to a short question.

Mike
 
hondadude said:
You should get somewhere around 5500 - 6000 full throttle and trimmed out. If you get to about 6200 -6300, you will hit the rev limiter.

The setting is correct for that motor....however.....the Teleflex or Faria tachs have problems registering correctly with that engine.

It was supposed to have been fixed by the time your motor was made, but I do not think it was. Sometimes adding the Resistor Assy Kit (06383-ZV5-315) helps. I have found that a Teleflex w/o built in hour meter has less of a chance to work than either a Teleflex or Faria with a built in hour meter. Sometimes the Teleflex with the built in hour meter works without the resistor. I have found the Faria with built in hour meter and the resistor assy to always work.

Not a very definite answer....it may sound convoluted but it works.

These motors were originally shipped with a tachometer in the box. The tach had no settings and only worked with BF35 - BF50 motors. This is one that is for sale on ebay. http://compare.ebay.com/like/200944195795?var=lv&ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar There may be some cheaper on the internet, this one is just the first one that I googled to show as an example. It is a little smaller in diameter and requires a special ring to fit into the hole that a teleflex/faria uses.

Long winded answer to a short question.

Mike
Click to expand...

Mike - You seem confident that the Faria with the resistor pack will work, the Faria with the hour meter. There are a few of the Hondas on eBay used, but I worry about a used gauge. One seller says they have 10 or more, for around 65$, go figure one person would have that many used gauges on hand.

This is the Faria with the hour gauge: http://www.ebay.com/itm/faria-tach-..._Accessories_Gear&hash=item2c6fdd48ad&vxp=mtr. It is a 7K tach. There are several 6k tachs on eBay also with Hour gauges but I suspect that this is the one that you are referring to. Do you think this with the resistor pack is the solution? Most of the threads that you have commented on point in this direction. The BF50a is a 2001. Seems easier to go this route then go with a used gauge and try to find the adapter ring.

As always, appreciate the advice.

Rory
 
Sorry I am just getting back to this. I think you did the right thing. Many of the Faria gauges that you see, that only go to 6K are for Inboard/Outboards. They do not work with outboards.

Just a comment on the guy having several of the older style tachs. I still have a few myself that have never been installed. We always install a tach with 25HP's and above, but most of the time, there are already other gauges in the dash. We like to match the look as closely as we can and the old style only comes in one color. I can not tell you how many Hondas have come in for service, where they installed the black face/black bezel with other gauges that are white face/white bezel. It looks really bad!

Hope all goes smooth.

Mike
 
Evening All.

Mike (HondaDude) - Thanks for the advice and help. Your direction has solved the charging issue, and the tach issue. Boat is now equipped with the Faria tach with the hour meter (are these still referred to as Hobbs Meters as with my Cessna?), with the resister pack, and new coils.

Here's the latest, and yes, another problem to solve for:

Ran the boat tonight, re-propped with a 12 pitch prop. Boat at WOT hits 4600 RPM, around 26 MPH. Boat shows to weigh 1100#, motor 300#, 18 gallons fuel = 130#, 2 adults, 400#, TTop 125#, 2 batteries. 100#, miscellaneous other, 100#. About 2200# as a guess. Hopefully dry hull below. Before the prop, front battery, and T-Top, it would hit 30 MPH, but never could get tach to work so not sure of RPM. Old prop had no markings, not sure of pitch.

Tonight as we were running, the alarm in the remote control - side mount - started beeping. Beep - Beep - Beep - steady with an occasional skip or delay. We were running WOT and I tried to trim the motor up to get a little better ride. Not sure when it started, I could barely hear over the outboard. Prior to tonight, there was no beeping.

Oil light green, no overheat light. Water stream is strong out of engine. Water pump not new, more then likely 3-4 years old.

In another post, you called out the trim module as a possible culprit. Before I pull out the shop manual, and back it into the shop, any thoughts?
 
Glad things are working out....sort of...

If the beeping is on off on off beeping, then it is possible that you trimmed the motor too high.

Depending on your control, the older 40's and 50's will give you such a warning if the motor is in gear and throttle advanced enough and it is trimmed too high. See page 70 of the owner's manual http://cdn.powerequipment.honda.com/marine/pdf/manuals/31ZW4603.pdf

As for your prop, it seems like it should be pretty close to the correct one. One thing to check is where the anti ventilation plate (horizontal plate just above the prop) should be even with the bottom of the boat or maybe even about an inch above the bottom. If it is lower than the bottom of the boat, raising the engine a little will help getting it up on plane and will increase the wot rpms.

It is possible that you might have to drop the pitch to an 11", but I would look at the motor height before changing any more props.

Mike
 
Thanks. Caught the info in the owners manual after running it last night. Once it faults, should it reset with key off? I'll put it on the water again this afternoon and see what happens. I'll also check the engine height. Looking at the performance example, it seems the MPH is actually a bit higher then listed.

Also might as well order the water pump parts to get that updated. At some point, this thing should be a worry free and safe ride for my son, if there is such a thing in the boating world. Got a trolling motor mount fabricated and installed to match up with the slant on the front deck over the weekend. A 55# MinnKota pushed it around quite nicely.

Mike, thanks again for your help. Rory
 
Motor anti vent plate is dead even with the bottom of the boat. I'll raise to an inch above later to see what happens. Any chance the new prop is throwing it off? I suspect the trim warning is the culprit, just have to figure out the why's. Looks like the 12 pitch is in the right ballpark.
 
Hi, I wonder if anyone can help me please, I am pulling my hair out over this problem with Honda BF50A which I think is 1995 !
The battery does not appear to be charging,(volt meter across battery engine running battery does not increase in voltage). Reading forum replies to others on this problem, I checked the output from the charge coils, nothing, meter on AC volts, tested the resistance, meter set to lowest ohms 200, meter reading 00.6 ohms, forum reply said it should be .17 to .23 ohms ! The coils look quite new, I have assumed that the coils are no good, so I took one apart to look at the copper winding, could not see anything wrong with it! The only other thing I can see is that one magnet on the flywheel has lost half its length sometime in the past with another owner, otherwise looks okay and clean. Please help.
Kind Regards, weeirv.
 
Hi,
This thread is going on 10 years old and probably has no subscribers any longer. You'll get way more people looking at your problem if you open your own new posting.

Having said that, it sounds as if your flywheel magnets are delaminating. Mike actually speaks about that earlier in this thread.

Delamination weakens the magnetic field needed to induce voltage in the coil wire. The result would be lower/no voltage in the circuit. A replacement flywheel is the only solution if that is the case.

Good luck.
 
Hi, Thank you for your reply. I have ordered new charge coils, although I am starting to think there was nothing wrong with the 'old' one's! I will try the new coils and if that does not work, new flywheel .What convinced me to think it was the coils was 1, no output, then 2 very low ohms reading. Only one of the 6 magnets is in half, I suspect that a previous owner has broken it, I take onboard what your saying though re the magnets, the flywheel is so expensive and I am a poor old pensioner.
Kind Regards from Scotland.
 
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